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Post by wenxina on Jul 17, 2010 10:13:35 GMT -5
Some minor (teasing?) spoilers about what's to come in this arc HERE.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 17, 2010 13:43:02 GMT -5
Okay, now I'm convinced that season 9 is going to take place in a different world... possibly in an afterlife world.
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shslibrarian55
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Post by shslibrarian55 on Jul 18, 2010 7:50:25 GMT -5
Okay, now I'm convinced that season 9 is going to take place in a different world... possibly in an afterlife world. I'm not sure about "afterlife world," but I see what you mean. Before I read this interview, I didn't think they would let Season 8 end in another world/dimension, but I can't see it ending any other way after his answers. He said it's going to set the stage for 9, and that 9 is going to be completely different from anything in Buffy ever. That alone convinces me that Season 8 is going to end with a divided universe (wording?), but that Season 9 will resolve it somehow. After the last issue, I thought it would definitely take an arc in another world/dimension, but I figured the resolution would come this season, not next. It would be very un-Buffy to have a finale unresolved. I'm rather unsure right now.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 18, 2010 8:26:38 GMT -5
I don't know if anyone has yet pointed out the weird similarities in the Angel episode "Happy Anniversary" with what's going on now.
In that episode:
* Lorne wakes Angel up by singing "The Star Spangled Banner" in the Hyperion atrium. Angel wakes up just about when he gets to the "twilight's last gleaming" part.
* The story involves a man who wants to create a little pocket universe where he can be alone forever with his girlfriend.
* A sinister cult of demons manipulate his work so that creating that pocket of reality will also destroy the entire human race.
* When Lorne asks Angel if he would care if the world came to an end, Angel has no answer.
* Angel admits to Lorne that he doesn't believe redemption is really possible for him, and wonders why he keeps trying.
* This episode was written by Joss himself (and David Greenwalt), so it's part of his personal conception of the Angelverse.
I haven't seen any Lubber Demons stalking around season 8 with their bolo ties and hunga-mungas, but I wonder if there aren't some clues to be found here. Who were those demons working for? Could "Happy Anniversary" have been some kind of dry run towards Twilight?
We know Joss has played the long game before with his Big Bads. The First Evil showed up in season 3 before really becoming an issue 4 whole seasons later, and Jasmine was manipulating things all the way back to season 1 of Angel, before making her move in season 4.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 18, 2010 10:21:12 GMT -5
Jasmine was pretty much the uber-retcon moment, no? Where suddenly all these choices seemingly made out of free will got retconned into some kinda diabolical machination by an external entity. I guess to me, it really doesn't matter whether or not something is predestined. The important part is that we're making a choice we think we're capable of making. And that's what counts. So, maybe someday, I'll learn that my affinity for tofu and rice milk was predestined, but until then, I'll just cling to the belief that it's part of my hippie-privileged state of mind.
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Dorotea
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Post by Dorotea on Jul 18, 2010 13:49:04 GMT -5
Was the notion of the Universe getting to be divided onto magical and none-magical worlds really such a big surprise to everybody? I mean, really ? After TOYL and all BM hints at the mutating fish in the ocean? After Fray with her scythe flash-forward in 34? After having flying cars flash-forwards as far back as in AtF? I am surprised everybody is surprised.
AC :
Meh. That guy wanted to freeze time not create a pocket- plane.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 18, 2010 14:45:20 GMT -5
AC : Meh. That guy wanted to freeze time not create a pocket- plane. I just watched the episode last night. He wanted to create a pocket plane in which time would be frozen for just himself and his girlfriend.
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Post by Emmie on Jul 18, 2010 18:49:58 GMT -5
A/C, that's a great parallel to pick up on! It really does read like the pre-run for Twilight. I'll have to watch that again.
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Dorotea
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Post by Dorotea on Jul 18, 2010 22:26:48 GMT -5
Alright. So, basically the guy wanted to freeze time to stop the world from changing in a small pocket around himself and his girlfriend - without realizing that you cannot stop time just in one place. I say it was his fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of time.
But even assuming the 'pocket plane' was his plan from the start Twilight is somewhat entirely different. Firstly Twilight did not happen because of the misguided wish of one individual - it happened as result of the ( to quote Buffy) 'world wanting to change' - as all Apocalypses in the verse - and as result of the fundamental shift of balance between good and evil. The scale is very different, the fundamental players are, as well as a the cause, and the final transition : the world changing, undergoing Rapture , vs world is becoming frozen in stasis.
I don't believe in the little demons or funny looking toymakers lurking behind the scene and manipulating everybody simply because the powers granted to the players are God-like and the final effect is rapture and fundamental change of the world. Universe is most likely what it was said to be - the Universe aka PtBs.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 18, 2010 22:35:10 GMT -5
You seem to know an awful lot about the end of the story, considering we're still five issues away from it. You have your opinions and observations, and I have mine. I'm not saying season 8 is a slavish rehash of "Happy Anniversary." I'm saying maybe Joss used that episode as something as a template or inspiration for this story, and it's now retroactively serving as a hint of things to come, just as "Amends" foreshadowed season 7. But you argue with every single thing I post, so go right ahead.
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Dorotea
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Post by Dorotea on Jul 19, 2010 0:16:36 GMT -5
You seem to know an awful lot about the end of the story, considering we're still five issues away from it. You have your opinions and observations, and I have mine. I'm not saying season 8 is a slavish rehash of "Happy Anniversary." I'm saying maybe Joss used that episode as something as a template or inspiration for this story, and it's now retroactively serving as a hint of things to come, just as "Amends" foreshadowed season 7. But you argue with every single thing I post, so go right ahead. I don't see why arguing with you is bad - you seem to have a knack for it and even some awards., don't you ? As for me knowing the end... well, I don't. But I try to always keep in mind the foreshadowings and flash-forwards - what's so strange about it ? And I dig easter eggs and hidden meanings and subtle context. To think of it - that is why I am visiting these boards. Arguing with you is part of the package. I hope you don't mind me enjoying it.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 19, 2010 7:56:53 GMT -5
I don't see why arguing with you is bad - you seem to have a knack for it and even some awards., don't you ? As for me knowing the end... well, I don't. But I try to always keep in mind the foreshadowings and flash-forwards - what's so strange about it ? And I dig easter eggs and hidden meanings and subtle context. To think of it - that is why I am visiting these boards. Arguing with you is part of the package. I hope you don't mind me enjoying it. Arguing is fine, just don't fall into the habit of contradicting everything just to be contrarian. You can agree sometimes, or if you don't agree at least admit that someone else has a valid observation. I don't think "Geppetto"/Doll maker is literally the one behind all this... too much has been made of that one panel. I just think it might be one of those easter eggs you mentioned... a suggestion that Angel is being manipulated like a marionette. I certainly hope so, since if he did what he did with completely free will, he is irrevocably destroyed as a heroic character for me. I don't think it will be as simple as "the Universe did it." First, that's lazy writing. It's a reverse deus ex machina. The Universe is everything and would, by definition, be omnipotent. You can't defeat it. You can't fight it. You can't contradict it. By rights, you shouldn't even be able to want to fight it. If one accepts the premise of an omnipotent God, then one must accept the premise that free will exists only insofar as that God chooses to let it exist. And the course of this story certainly seems to indicate that whatever is behind this is not at all interested in free will. I hope that Giles and Willow are incorrect (or not wholly correct) in their belief that the Universe is behind it. Because if true, then Giles is correct in his statement that there is no fighting it. It's over. I suppose it's possible that Buffy and the Scoobies could escape from this Universe into another one, where our Universe has no sway. But that would mean that our heroes have concluded a five-year, 40-issue story arc by... running away.
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Dorotea
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Post by Dorotea on Jul 19, 2010 9:25:13 GMT -5
Arguing is fine, just don't fall into the habit of contradicting everything just to be contrarian. You can agree sometimes, or if you don't agree at least admit that someone else has a valid observation. Ah, bad habit, acquired at work, I am afraid. I am supposed to always be questioning the new decisions and play the devil's advocate in the team - so it becomes a natural habit and unfortunately propagates into my hobbies. I will try to be gentler, lol, but keep in mind that I never argue with somebody I don't find exciting to argue with. I am trying to stick to the Big Picture here as well, but at the same time keep in mind that Angel's downfall into Twilight role was in the works since AtF. So, whatever Joss had in mind for him was something global - likely on the scale of final Apocalypse with Shanshu prophecy thrown into the mix. And it was not supposed to be pretty - with all the demon and human corpses on that final battlefield and the VIP standing alone amongst the dead bodies. This is too epic not to be the work of the Universe. Plus we have the splitting of the world hints coming from all directions. Dunno. I am definitely getting the Fray future coming to be true vibe, and this can only be the work of the verse itself. Plus, of course, all the 'subtle' references to the Serpentine nature of Saga Vasuki - and while I disagree with Emmie on her review of the S8 being a rip-off the Promethea plot - there is definitely some ironic and subtle connection. The Universe in Promethea has an avatar of a giant serpent - or a giant strand of intertwined DNA.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 19, 2010 10:15:15 GMT -5
If it's literally the Universe doing this, then I need to know how it can be opposed, and why the characters would even choose to oppose it. Wouldn't the Universe just manipulate everyone into thinking this is how things should happen?
Unless Joss is making the Universe into just another Monster To Fight... and I can't think of a scenario under which I wouldn't find that lame.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 19, 2010 10:18:23 GMT -5
Hey, how do you fight the ultimate evil? The thing that spawned evil in the first place? You can't hurt it, but you can foil its plans. Same thing with the universe. Don't have to beat it... just gotta foil its plans, or just show it an alternative that isn't ending the old world in favor for recreating it.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 19, 2010 10:32:19 GMT -5
Hey, how do you fight the ultimate evil? The thing that spawned evil in the first place? You can't hurt it, but you can foil its plans. Same thing with the universe. Don't have to beat it... just gotta foil its plans, or just show it an alternative that isn't ending the old world in favor for recreating it. The First wasn't the ultimate evil... just the first one. It wasn't even capable of giving a wedgie under its own power. It's like Bill Haley & the Comets may have been the first rock & roll band, but not many people claim they're the best ever. But this is the Universe we're talking about. It's everything... in fact, we're part of it. So are Buffy and Angel. The idea of "foiling its plans" just doesn't compute for me... you might as well foil God's plans. The Universe can't be defeated at a game it created, made the rules for, is referee of, and can change the rules any time it likes. Unless, as I said, the Universe is being reduced to a Monster of the Week. Lame. Trying to reason with it or show it a different path would suggest that there's something it doesn't know or hasn't thought of already. But the Universe, being everything and everywhere, would also be omniscient. It just can't be that simple. There's something else at work here.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 19, 2010 10:50:12 GMT -5
The First was the thing that existed before the notion of evil did. It's the original progenitor of all evil. So yes, I think it's fair to call it the ultimate evil. It's abstract, and yes, totally incorporeal, but its threat lies in the fact that because there is always going to be evil in the world, it basically has an entire planet full of minions.
The universe is kinda fuzzy in terms of what it really is. If it's the PtB in another name, then they're foilable, just as Jasmine didn't expect her own daddy to punch her face in. And whatever it is, it's already being foiled at the moment. Buffy and Angel were supposed to ascend, the world was supposed to end. Full stop. Period. Nothing more to it. But it appears that we've got 5 issues left dealing with the exploits of the Scoobies during the apocalypse, and Buffy and Angel are back on earth, fighting alongside everyone else. So, really, it may make plans, and nudge things along, but the degree of the universe's power seems to be along the lines of the First. It may have agency, but it isn't able to do anything about it unless it's acting through agents. Twilight was one such agent, apparently.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 19, 2010 10:59:40 GMT -5
The fact that it's being foiled right now proves to me that it's not the Universe.
Whatever it is, it's sentient and not just a natural process of evolution.
Metaphysics in the Buffyverse make my head hurt. But if it's not the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Universe doing all this, I wish they'd call it something different.
It may be Joss's humanist beliefs coming through, putting forth the notion than free-willed humans can thwart the will of powers and gods. But he really, really needs to come up with a convincing way to show how that can be. Humanism generally depends on the non-existence of God.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 19, 2010 11:10:51 GMT -5
Humanism just champions the agency of free will and the such. The Buffyverse toys with a certain amount of predestination, and throws about words like "destiny", "fate", "Chosen One", "PtB", etc. In order for a humanistic triumph, one has to be able to overcome such concepts. Does God really have to be infallible? Gods of most other religions (other than the Judeo monotheistic ones) tend to be manifestations of rather abstract ideas. And they're hardly infallible.
One of the major points made in every season of the show so far is that there really isn't anything so large and powerful that it cannot be defeated. Glory was a bonafide Hell God, and she was still defeated, and then unceremoniously snuffed out by killing her mortal prison. The PtB, the stand-ins for God, have also been shown to be vulnerable and not all seeing. Jasmine managed to fool them all, and herself, a Power that Was, was also defeated.
Your current hang up is that the notion of "universe" in the story may not match up with your personal definition of the word. Am I right on that assessment?
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 19, 2010 12:03:01 GMT -5
Your current hang up is that the notion of "universe" in the story may not match up with your personal definition of the word. Am I right on that assessment? Well yes, but I don't really see how many different definitions of "the Universe" there can be. If Buffy and the Scoobies discover the ability this season to control what the Universe does or doesn't do, then they have officially become gods. If the Universe itself can't beat them, nothing can, and there's little point to continuing the story any further. Buffy & Co. have defeated the final boss and won the game. I have a feeling the resolution will be more like them playing around with timelines, or with time itself, in order to exempt themselves (or this timeline's version of themselves) from the consequences of what is happening... like catching a spaceship out just before the earth blows up. If last season required BuffyCo to beat the devil, and this season requires them to beat God, who will they be called on to defeat next season? Joss?
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