patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
|
Post by patxshand on Mar 4, 2008 20:47:48 GMT -5
Its still his story, I don't think it's any different than having other writers write episodes on the show or season 8. He just wasn't experienced at writing comics at that time and decided to have someone else write the comic from his story and outline...I'm pretty sure that is how he did the Serenity comics as well and they would be considered cannon there. True enough, but Serenity doesn't have an expanded universe. Outside of fan-fic, there is only the series, the movie, and the comic (which itself is short). It's easier to accept the Serenity works as canon because (a) there IS no expanded universe like with Buffy and Angel and (b) the purpose of those comics is to bridge the series and the movie. The Angel comic in question is more difficult. It was never stated to be canon, and wasn't written directly by Joss. It was never referenced in any canonical work, and has events big enough TO be mentioned. I think it's arguable that it should be accepted as canon, but Brian Lynch's SPIKE stories have as 'arguable' a place in canon as Angel: LNJ does. Neither are gimmes, but neither are "absolutely not"s either.
|
|
|
Post by Jinxieman on Mar 4, 2008 21:26:06 GMT -5
That's true...I guess the only reason to really try to pin-point if something is cannon is if it effects the continually of the series. Angel: LNJ really don't have much of an effect on the overall arc of Angel, it's a nice story but it's not Buffyverse shattering or anything.
Season 8, ATF, and Fray are all major pieces in the continuation of the Buffyverse and these characters. When you put a piece like Antique in there the question really needs to be asked because this story is approved by Joss and really has a play in the overall arc of Xander's character.
|
|
patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
|
Post by patxshand on Mar 4, 2008 23:11:27 GMT -5
I think it's without question that "Tales" is canon. The story that connects each 'tale' is written by Joss. A few of the tales are written by Joss. It's literally a small version of Season Eight, the way it's written and handled.
|
|
Slayer489
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Why do I feel like this? Why do I let Spike do those things to me?" - Buffy 'Dead Things'[Mo0:0]
Posts: 784
|
Post by Slayer489 on Mar 5, 2008 12:42:26 GMT -5
I might think about picking up Tales Of The Slayers and Tales Of The Vampires.
|
|
|
Post by henzINNIT on Mar 5, 2008 13:01:07 GMT -5
I've never really understood fandom's obsession with what is and what isn't canon, particularly in the Buffyverse, where there are so many inconsistencies within the show itself; just off the top of my head, the Turok Han being the most impossible things to kill ever/everyone and their Nan being able to dust them in 'Chosen', and all that nonsense with Warren being The First, for instance. As far as I'm concerned, as long as something rings true to the characters and gets them where they need to be, I'm willing to accept as part of the mythology. If it doesn't, I can chalk it up to poor writing and pretend it doesn't exist. (I posted something of a similar sentiment a few days ago, but it mysteriously disappeared. I'll be keeping my beadies on this one, homies!) MB x Yeah I agree. Canon is a pointless term.
|
|
patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
|
Post by patxshand on Mar 5, 2008 15:39:47 GMT -5
Canon is a vital term. Without a clear canon, there's confusion. If people accepted both "Angel- Old Friends" and "Angel- After the Fall" as canon, there are just contradictions there. It would leave people scratching their heads, wondering "How can both of these happen?"
The only way is to have a canon. Then it's simple. "After the Fall" is canon. "Old Friends" is not. It's really clear cut, very simple, and not at all pointless.
Especially not to comic companies. A canon book surely sells more than a non-canon book.
|
|
|
Post by buffysmglover on Mar 8, 2008 14:56:43 GMT -5
During a podcast, Brian said that if fans are inclined to do so, they could accept "Asylum" and "Shadow Puppets" as canon. I am inclined to do so, as neither contradicts canon and they (a) give a nice context to Beta George, and (b) monumentally develop Spike's character. However, hitnrun.... Don't let canon discourage you. It's easy. There is a simple list of strict canon, as it is as follows: 1. The Origin TPB 2. Buffy: the TV series 3. Angel: the TV series 4. Buffy- Season Eight 5. Angel- After the Fall 6. Tales of the Vampires 7. Tales of the Slayers 8. Fray Everything else is either on the fence (comics by writers from the show) or non-canon. That is pretty much what I consider it too, even though The Origin, IMO, is a piece of crap. But it's just so confusing with the number of Buffy/Angel books and the original comics. But when I'm going through the series, the things you listed are what I read/watch. That is the appropriate list. And does anyone know if Brian said whether or not JOSS said it could be accepted as canon? I also thought the Origin was a piece of crap, but I won't be telling that to Chris, who is a somewhat regular interviewee or mine. I've never really understood fandom's obsession with what is and what isn't canon, particularly in the Buffyverse, where there are so many inconsistencies within the show itself; just off the top of my head, the Turok Han being the most impossible things to kill ever/everyone and their Nan being able to dust them in 'Chosen', and all that nonsense with Warren being The First, for instance. As far as I'm concerned, as long as something rings true to the characters and gets them where they need to be, I'm willing to accept as part of the mythology. If it doesn't, I can chalk it up to poor writing and pretend it doesn't exist. (I posted something of a similar sentiment a few days ago, but it mysteriously disappeared. I'll be keeping my beadies on this one, homies!) MB x Yeah I agree. Canon is a pointless term. Yes, but if everything that was ever published in any way was for us to believe really did happen to these characters, some of them would be dead and Season Eight wouldn't happen. I might think about picking up Tales Of The Slayers and Tales Of The Vampires. I've read Tales of the Vampires and enjoyed it (although I didn't remember reading ANTIQUE). Haven't gotten my hands on Tales of the Slayers yet.
|
|
|
Post by henzINNIT on Mar 8, 2008 15:20:08 GMT -5
But if something is good enough to be published, and you read it and love it, what's it matter if it is canon or not? I worded my last post badly. I understand canon and its importance to continuity, I just think overal people take it too seriously. I'll never really take Season 8 or After the Fall seriously as canon, regardless of whether or not Joss wrote or pitched it. It's just not the show any more. I'll still give it a whirl though.
|
|
|
Post by buffysmglover on Mar 9, 2008 1:07:22 GMT -5
It doesn't matter at all. There are things out there not canon that are better than anything canon. Canon's absolute ONLY importance is continuity.
|
|
liammars
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 11
|
Post by liammars on Mar 11, 2008 10:23:53 GMT -5
Both "Tales" series are canon. "The Chain" depicted a bunch of the Slayers from Tales of the Slayers, and "Wolves at the Gate, Part 1" obliquely referenced "Antique".
|
|
barryshaft
Novice Witch
Sometimes I shouldn't say words...[Mo0:0]
Posts: 224
|
Post by barryshaft on Mar 12, 2008 2:52:49 GMT -5
But if something is good enough to be published, and you read it and love it, what's it matter if it is canon or not? I worded my last post badly. I understand canon and its importance to continuity, I just think overal people take it too seriously. I'll never really take Season 8 or After the Fall seriously as canon, regardless of whether or not Joss wrote or pitched it. It's just not the show any more. I'll still give it a whirl though. I think people are more concerned (when it comes to something being canon) with it's importance to the overall story and character arcs. These are characters that people have been attached to for sometime and I wouldn't really be interested in seeing stories about them that didn't really count. Essentially it's what one, completely unconnected writer thinks might happen, not exactly the creator's intent. Non-Canon stuff is essentially like fanfiction, and most of it is just about as well written (apologies to the fanfiction writers out there). I think the reason The Origin is canon, though I've not read it, is that it simply negates the movie from being the series official prequel, as the movie is quite awful (apologies to Donald Sutherland)
|
|
|
Post by angeliclestat on Mar 12, 2008 10:48:18 GMT -5
I really don't get how people can say that they don't accept Buffy:Season 8, and Angel:After the Fall as canon
I just.......seriously?.....I mean.....but....
The mind boggles.
|
|
|
Post by angeliclestat on Mar 12, 2008 10:53:43 GMT -5
Ironically just after I posted above, I went to Whedonesque where Brian Lynch posted this re:the Spike mini coming in June
|
|
|
Post by buffysmglover on Jul 5, 2008 19:15:35 GMT -5
I've updated the original post a little and will soon have Spike ATF listed after I've double-checked its canon status. I think it's supposed to be canon, but I want to make sure.
|
|
|
Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Jul 10, 2008 14:15:25 GMT -5
I thought "Go Ask Malice" was named canon, wasn't it?
|
|
patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
|
Post by patxshand on Jul 10, 2008 14:19:41 GMT -5
Nope. None of the novels are canon. Joss has never even read a "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" novel.
|
|
Whedon Fan
Ensouled Vampire
Joss Is Boss
Banner & Avatar Made By CBG[Mo0:3][Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,312
|
Post by Whedon Fan on Jul 10, 2008 15:10:23 GMT -5
Nope. None of the novels are canon. Joss has never even read a "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" novel. Hmm, I don't know about that all Buffy merchandise goes through Joss, his company or FOX. So he must have read/browsed through a couple of books. I know for a fact that he reads the odd comic book as he has read both Spike: Asylum and Spike: Shadow Puppets which were written by Brian Lynch. This is how Brian got the job to write After The Fall. Brian bumped into Joss and asked what he thought of them, they got to talking and they eventually both planned out a season 6 which Brian scripted.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Allie on Jul 11, 2008 1:00:36 GMT -5
As a reader I agree that canon shouldn't matter. Especially as a comics reader—"canon" is what has made Marvel and DC books unreadable. If we worry over whether or not Dark Knight is canon, we can't appreciate it unless we believe that every other Bat book is leading up to it. What matters is that Dark Knight is better than just about any other Bat book you're likely to read. Can we not enjoy Sean Connery just because they hit the reset button with Casino Royale?
Canon publications of licensed material do sell better, so it does matter to me as an editor. I can tell you what Hellboy material is canon and what is not. Devoted fans care more about the stories that are canon, and more of them buy it. However, I have to admit that Doug Petrie's old comics and Jane Espenson's old comics, while probably among the best we published back then, were not canon. But they sold better than comics by non-show writers, and you should still read them, even if you don't want to read the ones that Pascoe & Fassbender and Golden did.
I think Buffy: The Origin is canon, but the real test of canon is that Joss never comes along and violates it. We did The Origin, with his blessing, to obliterate the movie, to create our own versions of the supporting cast of the movie, and to give a version of the story that fit the comic. I think it's sort of like if we'd done a line for line adaptation of the first episode of the show. How could that not be canon, right?
The difference between canon and non-canon is that when we're making it, non-canon dances around, trying not to say anything that canon will suddenly make obsolete. Like when Aliens 3 came out and made irrelevant all the comics we'd published since Aliens 2. My intros to the Buffy Omnibus editions reveal the problems that come up with that.
In Season Eight, we know that whatever we do reveals the truth about the past and determines the future. With Fray, I didn't worry about canon or not; I was surprised as hell when Joss told me the scythe would appear in the TV show. Suddenly Fray was canon.
Angel: Long's Night's Journey was A) started after Fray, and B) cowritten by Joss. It was Joss trying to define what an Angel comic could be. We have never listed Joss as a writer on a book he did not cowrite. He cowrote that Angel book, and he cowrote all the Serenity comics. We haven't determined whether he'll get a cowriting credit or an Exec Prod credit on the Shepherd Book story—which will certainly be canon—because we don't know how much work he'll do on it. If his outline is very detailed, I'd want a cowriting credit. If he contributes a significant amount of dialogue, he'll get a cowriting credit. If he merely works out the outline with the writer, and edits the scripts, as he's done on every issue of Season Eight, we won't credit him as writer. I would not want to put Joss's name above Drew Goddard's name on Wolves at the Gate, when Drew did the heavy lifting—even though they broke the story together, plotted it, and Joss no doubt tweaked some dialogue, assisted with some of the comics storytelling of it. But that was his job on the TV show, as Exec Prod, and the writers got their writer credits there. These are important distinctions to me—so please understand the level of his involvement. His Exec Prod role on Season Eight is time consuming and unique; he doesn't do that anywhere else. Everything else he does for me, he writes or cowrites. But either way, I think it all has to be canon, as his intent is to see his stories continue in this medium.
Joss has told me repeatedly he's never read a Buffy novel. All licensed material goes through Fox, and it all goes TO Mutant Enemy, but I know that Joss was never handed my scripts when we first started doing the comics. They went to someone very far removed from him at first, and as my relationship with him grew, they went to people closer to him—but he still never read anything unless there was a good reason for me to personally ask him to. So don't assume that other stuff—from companies he's never worked with—gets anywhere near him.
There's other details I wish I could give you guys, but that'll have to do— Scott
|
|
|
Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 11, 2008 3:31:38 GMT -5
Thanks Scott, that was a very interesting read, specially the part of how involved Joss is.
******
When I heard how many projects Joss has going on, I feared that Season 8 would suffer. I thought that it wouldn't be as canon-y that I would like. I didn't think of that without a lot of people that isn't Joss, Buffy the show would never has been as good as it was.
***
Btw, I personally don't think that just because Joss had a hand in a comic makes it canon. No until Joss says so.
Damn, I don't have the time to finish this post.
|
|
|
Post by KingofCretins on Jul 11, 2008 12:06:07 GMT -5
I think that the integrity of the canon of the Buffyverse is part of what separates it from pretty much any other popular fiction.
Personally, I have three categories of canon.
The first is official canon -- things that Joss has officially and explicitly given the stamp of canon status. This includes A) Buffy: Origin, B) the 254 televised episodes, C) Dark Horse's Season 8 and IDW's "Angel: After the Fall" and "Spike: After the Fall".
In the second category are quasi-canonical works -- these are works that are not *explicitly* made canon in interviews or press statements, but are compatible with canon without any substantial modification. These include both of Dark Horse's "Tales of..." series, "Spike: Asylum", "Spike: Shadow Puppets", "Viva Las Buffy", and "Slayer, Interrupted", amongst others. Works in the second category are schroedinger's cat, basically -- they can, however (and have) be adopted into the canon in whole or in part based on events in the canon work. Worth noting that the mere fact that Joss or Jane or Doug or somebody wrote it doesn't on its own grant canon status -- many Buffy writers admit that they've written fanfic, after all.
The third category for me is non-canon -- these are works that, either because Joss flat out said so, or more commonly, because they are contradicted by the canon, can not be part of the actual ongoing Buffyverse story. Buffy novels fit here. I would consider "Go Ask Malice" quasi-canonical for its quality alone, but Joss said the novels aren't, ergo, non-canon.
As a side-note, I think that fanfic can be divided up in two ways -- canon-compatible and AU. AU is what would, by definition, fall into the "non-canon" category -- it contradicts the canon on its face. These are the "set after Season 5, but Buffy is still alive and Spike has his chip out" stories. Canon-compatible fic is like the 2nd category -- Joss could canonize any part of it at any time.
|
|