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Post by buffysmglover on Mar 1, 2008 2:29:01 GMT -5
I want to help everyone here out by telling what I believe to be the correct list of what is canon and what is not (pretty acurate list no matter what)...
What is Canon? Canon is what a story in the Buffyverse/Angelverse outside of the television shows is called if it has been declared by Joss Whedon to actually take place in the Scoobies' life span. Everything that happened within the television series is automatically canon (although The Wish is AU, or Alternate Universe).
Comics: BtVS Season Eight IS canon. Not only is it being written by Joss every so often, but it is advertised as the continuation of the tv show.
Fray is canon, and written by Joss. However, it would be most appreciated by the mods if the spoilers for Fray could stay in the appropriate threads (trying not to spoil anyone who doesn't want to be spoiled).
Angel: After the Fall is canon. What Joss wants to happen to Angel after "Not Fade Away" is happening in After the Fall. Now, there has been so much controversey over whether or not AtF is canon, that Joss has basically said in an interview "You know what, if you want Angel's story to continue the way it would have, it's canon. If not, it's not."
Spike: After the Fall is canon.
Other comics: Christopher Golden's The Origin was made canon by Joss. Here is something he said about it at The Bronze Beta back in 1999:
Tales of the Vampires and Tales of the Slayers are both canon.
Books: The books ARE NOT CANON. I can imagine arguments on this, but trust me, the only ones that could even possibly be canon are the Tales of the Slayers and Chosen. But, Chosen ( a novelization of BtVS Season Seven) was rushed by the publisher because they wanted to get it out in stores the same week the last episode aired and it had so many mistakes that author Nancy Holder had her name removed from the book completely, upon her request. It was also written using the scripts, because the episodes had not all aired.
Fanfiction: I feel sorry for anyone who didn't know this already, but fanfiction, or online free stories all over the web about the Buffyverse, is NOWHERE NEAR CANON.
I hoped this has helped some posters. Feel free to discuss and let me know if I've left anything out.
-Tim
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Post by buffysmglover on Mar 1, 2008 5:25:47 GMT -5
I don't feel that way (the first way) but I respect those who do. I see AtF as being canon whether I like it so far or not. I believe if there was news of a new Buffy movie, we'd forget about AtF AND Season Eight.  |
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Slayer489
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Why do I feel like this? Why do I let Spike do those things to me?" - Buffy 'Dead Things'[Mo0:0]
Posts: 784
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Post by Slayer489 on Mar 1, 2008 5:26:35 GMT -5
Unless Antique is addressed in "Wolves At The Gate", I personally don't want to consider it as canon. The only things I consider canon for definite are Buffy the show, Angel the show, Season 8, After The Fall and Fray. |
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Post by buffysmglover on Mar 1, 2008 5:30:37 GMT -5
Antique itself was not made Canon, but the entire collection of Tales of the Vampires |
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Slayer489
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Why do I feel like this? Why do I let Spike do those things to me?" - Buffy 'Dead Things'[Mo0:0]
Posts: 784
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Post by Slayer489 on Mar 1, 2008 5:38:17 GMT -5
Antique itself was not made Canon, but the entire collection of Tales of the Vampires So wouldn't that still make it canon? |
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faith0tvs
Novice Witch
I am the Slayer ask me How[Mo0:4]
Posts: 277
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Post by faith0tvs on Mar 1, 2008 9:08:34 GMT -5
Joss decides whats cannon and whats not , not the fans so if eh says that the X book or comic is cannon so it is, he's the creator after all  |
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Post by buffysmglover on Mar 1, 2008 15:50:28 GMT -5
Antique itself was not made Canon, but the entire collection of Tales of the Vampires So wouldn't that still make it canon? Yes, it is. I just mean he didn't come up with an idea for Season Eight and then say "Let's put Drac in there! We can have antique be canon!". IDK. Just trying to help. Joss decides whats cannon and whats not , not the fans so if eh says that the X book or comic is cannon so it is, he's the creator after all This list is of what Joss has made canon, not what someone wants to be canon |
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faith0tvs
Novice Witch
I am the Slayer ask me How[Mo0:4]
Posts: 277
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Post by faith0tvs on Mar 2, 2008 8:27:17 GMT -5
I wasnt talking about your list I was talking about some debates between fans who consider some stuff to be non-cannon even if Joss says otherwise |
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Slayer489
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Why do I feel like this? Why do I let Spike do those things to me?" - Buffy 'Dead Things'[Mo0:0]
Posts: 784
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Post by Slayer489 on Mar 2, 2008 14:32:07 GMT -5
Now I think about it, it'll be fine if "Antique" is mentioned in "Wolves At The Gate" because we don't have to consider the exact comic as canon, we can just know that something similar happened off-screen if we want to. That's probably what I'll do if I can. |
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BuffyFanOne
Ensouled Vampire
Warm, Delicious Cookie-Me
Claimer of Duchess Buffy![Mo0:24]
Posts: 1,933
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Post by BuffyFanOne on Mar 2, 2008 15:19:54 GMT -5
I agree slayer489. Unless Xander says "I have not seen my master Dracula sence that time I spent a year as his butt monkey" or something like that, I am planning on ignoring it as much as I can |
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barryshaft
Novice Witch
Sometimes I shouldn't say words...[Mo0:0]
Posts: 224
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Post by barryshaft on Mar 2, 2008 23:29:32 GMT -5
I remember reading that Joss was a big fan of Spike: Asylum and that was the reason Brian Lynch was chosen to do After The Fall. Is that book considered canon? I've been considering picking it up, but frankly (and geekily) I probably won't bother if it's not.
All the random Buffy books, comics and stuff that isn't canon always just seems like fancy fanwanking to me. I've been hurt before (the amazingly awful Angel: The Curse, which at the time of it's release they hinted at it maybe being the "Official Continuation" and clearly changed their mind after it sucked horribly).
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Post by buffysmglover on Mar 2, 2008 23:37:30 GMT -5
I remember reading that Joss was a big fan of Spike: Asylum and that was the reason Brian Lynch was chosen to do After The Fall. Is that book considered canon? I've been considering picking it up, but frankly (and geekily) I probably won't bother if it's not. All the random Buffy books, comics and stuff that isn't canon always just seems like fancy fanwanking to me. I've been hurt before (the amazingly awful Angel: The Curse, which at the time of it's release they hinted at it maybe being the "Official Continuation" and clearly changed their mind after it sucked horribly). Nope. Spike: Asylum hasn't been made canon. |
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Post by Jinxieman on Mar 3, 2008 20:06:09 GMT -5
What about Angel: Long Night's Journey written by Joss Whedon and Brett Matthews?
Jane Espanson also has an arc from Buffy called Haunted...I wonder where that would fall seeing as she was a staff writer on the show?
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Post by hitnrun017 on Mar 3, 2008 20:38:35 GMT -5
What about Angel: Long Night's Journey written by Joss Whedon and Brett Matthews? Jane Espanson also has an arc from Buffy called Haunted...I wonder where that would fall seeing as she was a staff writer on the show? That's a good question. Doug Petrie also wrote Ring of Fire and a couple one-shots. Jane Espenson wrote a Jonathan One-Shot aswell as Reunion, about Buffy and Angel's meeting in Season 6/Season 3. The whole Canon thing is just way too confusing to me. |
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Mar 3, 2008 22:19:34 GMT -5
During a podcast, Brian said that if fans are inclined to do so, they could accept "Asylum" and "Shadow Puppets" as canon. I am inclined to do so, as neither contradicts canon and they (a) give a nice context to Beta George, and (b) monumentally develop Spike's character.
However, hitnrun.... Don't let canon discourage you. It's easy. There is a simple list of strict canon, as it is as follows:
1. The Origin TPB
2. Buffy: the TV series
3. Angel: the TV series
4. Buffy- Season Eight
5. Angel- After the Fall
6. Tales of the Vampires
7. Tales of the Slayers
8. Fray
Everything else is either on the fence (comics by writers from the show) or non-canon.
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Aloha Joe
Potential Slayer
Mostly Harmless
Now Available in Minty Pineapple![Mo0:25]
Posts: 179
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Post by Aloha Joe on Mar 3, 2008 22:29:04 GMT -5
What about Angel: Long Night's Journey written by Joss Whedon and Brett Matthews? I consider it canon. I mean, Joss DID write it... I've read most of the Buffy comics and found most of them to be quite unentertaining. The only ones I really like happen to be those written by folk involved with the show. (This includes the ones written by James Marsters and Amber Benson.) And those are the only ones I'd recommend. That and Spike: Asylum and Shadow Puppets. The name Christopher Golden makes me shiver in horrific ways. |
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Post by hitnrun017 on Mar 3, 2008 22:41:10 GMT -5
During a podcast, Brian said that if fans are inclined to do so, they could accept "Asylum" and "Shadow Puppets" as canon. I am inclined to do so, as neither contradicts canon and they (a) give a nice context to Beta George, and (b) monumentally develop Spike's character. However, hitnrun.... Don't let canon discourage you. It's easy. There is a simple list of strict canon, as it is as follows: 1. The Origin TPB 2. Buffy: the TV series 3. Angel: the TV series 4. Buffy- Season Eight 5. Angel- After the Fall 6. Tales of the Vampires 7. Tales of the Slayers 8. Fray Everything else is either on the fence (comics by writers from the show) or non-canon. That is pretty much what I consider it too, even though The Origin, IMO, is a piece of crap. But it's just so confusing with the number of Buffy/Angel books and the original comics. But when I'm going through the series, the things you listed are what I read/watch. |
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Mar 4, 2008 11:17:15 GMT -5
Joss didn't write "Long Night's Journey," he outlined it and the other credited writer wrote it. It was published way before Fray, and he says in the intro of Fray that Fray was the first comic he'd ever written. Joss is credited as writer because he gave the outline kinda thing.
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Post by Giant Michael on Mar 4, 2008 17:44:47 GMT -5
I've never really understood fandom's obsession with what is and what isn't canon, particularly in the Buffyverse, where there are so many inconsistencies within the show itself; just off the top of my head, the Turok Han being the most impossible things to kill ever/everyone and their Nan being able to dust them in 'Chosen', and all that nonsense with Warren being The First, for instance.
As far as I'm concerned, as long as something rings true to the characters and gets them where they need to be, I'm willing to accept as part of the mythology. If it doesn't, I can chalk it up to poor writing and pretend it doesn't exist.
(I posted something of a similar sentiment a few days ago, but it mysteriously disappeared. I'll be keeping my beadies on this one, homies!)
MB x
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Post by Jinxieman on Mar 4, 2008 18:02:08 GMT -5
Joss didn't write "Long Night's Journey," he outlined it and the other credited writer wrote it. It was published way before Fray, and he says in the intro of Fray that Fray was the first comic he'd ever written. Joss is credited as writer because he gave the outline kinda thing. Its still his story, I don't think it's any different than having other writers write episodes on the show or season 8. He just wasn't experienced at writing comics at that time and decided to have someone else write the comic from his story and outline...I'm pretty sure that is how he did the Serenity comics as well and they would be considered cannon there. |
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