Slayer Question

[faith0tvs]

My question might seem dumb but we knew from the show that when a slayer dies another one is called in her place, does this happen nowdays when there are approximatelly 1800 slayers?Have their numbers remained stable?

[Wyndam]

I would say no, since technically anyone that was a potential slayer was activated after "Chosen." So there are no potential slayers on the planet to be activated anymore if a Slayer dies.

Where this can get messy is when you bring up the discussion about new potential slayers being born after "Chosen." Are they born a Slayer or a potential slayer that can be activated if a Slayer dies?

Where this gets even messier is when you discuss the stuff about Faith being the only "real" Slayer that controls the line, since Buffy has died and isn't technically the true Slayer anymore. So if one of the new Slayers dies and there is a potential slayer toddler running around, would they be activated? Or does Faith have to die?

*brain melts*

[Joe]

wyndam said:

I would say no, since technically anyone that was a potential slayer was activated after "Chosen." So there are no potential slayers on the planet to be activated anymore if a Slayer dies.

Where this can get messy is when you bring up the discussion about new potential slayers being born after "Chosen." Are they born a Slayer or a potential slayer that can be activated if a Slayer dies?

Where this gets even messier is when you discuss the stuff about Faith being the only "real" Slayer that controls the line, since Buffy has died and isn't technically the true Slayer anymore. So if one of the new Slayers dies and there is a potential slayer toddler running around, would they be activated? Or does Faith have to die?

*brain melts*

I don't think it would be any slayer that dies get's a potential toddler. Only Faith. or at least that's how I understood it before the mumbo jumbo of Season 8. So, yea I guess it would be a toddler, what if Buffy had to kidnap the baby cause the parents wouldn't know what to do. lol

[faith0tvs]

wyndam said:

I would say no, since technically anyone that was a potential slayer was activated after "Chosen." So there are no potential slayers on the planet to be activated anymore if a Slayer dies.

Where this can get messy is when you bring up the discussion about new potential slayers being born after "Chosen." Are they born a Slayer or a potential slayer that can be activated if a Slayer dies?

Where this gets even messier is when you discuss the stuff about Faith being the only "real" Slayer that controls the line, since Buffy has died and isn't technically the true Slayer anymore. So if one of the new Slayers dies and there is a potential slayer toddler running around, would they be activated? Or does Faith have to die?

*brain melts*

Exactly What about the new potentials?Sure there are a few girls who ar eborn with the Slayer girft , what happens to them?

[wenxina]

Possible plot line for late Season 8 or Season 9?
Would definitely be something the fans are dying to have cleared up.
Assuming that Fray is considered canonical (I think it is), then I'm guessing that new Potentials will still pop up. How/when/under what circumstances/etc, I don't have a clue.
But if I'm not mistaken, isn't there a throwaway line about how girls have before Mel had the potential but were never called. If I'm right in remembering that... that may be something to consider.

You bring up a good point though, about Faith being the only one who carries the Slayer line. Thought it was funny that Buffy tells the Potentials that "[her] death could make [them] the next Slayer"... always bugs me when I watch that ep (Get it Done, I think).

But since the topic of Faith, Buffy and Fray have come up in my reply... I've always been kinda curious about Urkonn's description of the apocalyptic battle that ends magic in the world.
He tells Mel: "But, the demons being gone, she was the last to be called."
The part about mystical allies does sound like Buffy, but then again, technically, all the slayers now have mystical allies.
But back to the part about being the "last to be called"... this girl could very well be Faith as she was the last one "called" through the old school way. Or it could be another girl called at some point in the 21st century.
Or I'm giving this way too much thought, and Whedon's gonna retcon the blasted thing.
Oh well... toodles.

[Rachster]

i think there are new potentials poppoing up everywhere we see it in an issue i think they some how get tracked down and taken to the closest base or traning place

[Rebecca]

This whole notion about Faith being the "true" slayer is not consistent in the writing. I remember after Buffy was brought back in S6 Giles remarking that even though she had a mystical death, another slayer would have been called eventually. And as mentioned above, it is repeatedly spoken of in S7 that any of the potentials could take Buffy's place if she were to die.

Although the logic is sound, it is inconsistent in the writing. However that isn't to say it cannot be cleared up sometime in the future.

[partyking09]

See me and king had a whole discussion about this @ the DH Boards,now i dont know what to think hopefully joss will clear this up 4 us!!!

[partyking09]

scoobiegroupie said:

This whole notion about Faith being the "true" slayer is not consistent in the writing. I remember after Buffy was brought back in S6 Giles remarking that even though she had a mystical death, another slayer would have been called eventually. And as mentioned above, it is repeatedly spoken of in S7 that any of the potentials could take Buffy's place if she were to die.

Although the logic is sound, it is inconsistent in the writing. However that isn't to say it cannot be cleared up sometime in the future.

but buffy died tice so technically faith is in fact the true slayer because when she died the 1st time kendra as called and when kendra died faith was called,the line continued,so then buffy died again and the I think we would have gotten another true slayer if not for willows spell,because obviously buffy still has her powers and i mean she has to be able to pass her powers down because all those potentials were coming from all over and faith didnt die,but technically buffys dead!!

joss really needs to clear this up because now its getting confusing !!!he should really get on the boards and read some of this stuff!!!it could help with his continuity!

[hitnrun017]

mikey said:

scoobiegroupie said:

I remember after Buffy was brought back in S6 Giles remarking that even though she had a mystical death, another slayer would have been called eventually.

I don't remember that at ALL. Can someone find a quote, or episode?

I remember Giles and Buffy saying something about it in Grave and this is what was said:

BUFFY: I guess I wasn't ready before. It took a long time for that feeling to go away, the feeling that I wasn't really here. It was like when I clawed my way out of that grave, I left something behind. Part of me. I just, I don't understand why I'm back.
GILES: You have a calling.
BUFFY: But it was my time, Giles. Someone would have taken my place. So why?

And that's all that was said about it because Giles turned the subject back to Willow.

[hitnrun017]

Hmm... never thought of it that way. That makes sense.

[wenxina]

mikey said:

I don't think she means that a new slayer would be called. But that someone would just step up and fill the void she left.

And they did. The Scoobies, that is.
Or Willow could have killed Faith (payback's a witch... sorry, I had to) mystically and voila, new slayer called.
Or, I guess the Buffybot could have stood in until Faith served her entire time, by which time, Willow would probably have to age the Bot some... as well as switch the peppy one-liners to things that sound more cautionary... like "Remember to floss your fangs!" or something of the like.

[Emmie]

They should explore in the comics what happened to the really young girls who were activated as slayers in Chosen. Remember the girl in the baseball uniform at bat...she looked no older than 10 yrs old. Do we already have toddlers running around with slayer powers? The scythe activation spell didn't seem to discriminate based on age; just whether they had the potential. Maybe there are some great-grandma's out there who were activated as slayers too.

[KingofCretins]

People are mixing concepts here -- Buffy's statements in "Grave" always struck me as a broader, philosophical statement. Someone would 'take her place' as being the protector of the hellmouth, or the general main white-hat. Maybe Angel, maybe Willow, maybe someone we hadn't met. I don't think she was referring to the line so much as the general vacuum that nature abhors.

With regard to the dialogue in Season 7 that refers to a Slayer being called if Buffy were killed, we know for fact that they were just incorrect. Joss has said they were incorrect (just never has said *why* the characters didn't know the information correctly, since it never was significant to the plot). So there are really just two possibilities --

-- the characters really didn't know or think about whether that was accurate, and didn't understand that Faith was the Slayer "of record" at that point.
-- Buffy felt it was less complicated and more productive to keep the girls focused on the two realities that A) Buffy might not always be around, and B) one of them could become the Slayer. She could have given a long and more factually precise explanation, or she could have kept it simple.

Now, about the effects of the spell on the line -- I don't think it had any. Willow's spell was clearly not even remotely the same type of spell the Shadowmen used, so there's no evidence at all that it created 2000 self-perpetuating Slayer lines. Faith is the Slayer of record. If she were killed, I actually think the "official" hat would pass to one of the other Slayers, and so on, until a Potential (as I assume they'll still be being born, or however many may not have been called because they were too young) that's not a Slayer gets the "official Slayer hat" by luck of the draw.

[Emmie]

kingofcretins said:

Joss has said they were incorrect (just never has said *why* the characters didn't know the information correctly, since it never was significant to the plot).

Where did he say they were incorrect?

It seems like Joss treats the mythos of the series very fluidly and sometimes a bright flashing light is all thats needed to explain something (ie spike becoming corporeal again in destiny) but I was given an explanation on this board that seemed plausible about why Buffy was an active slayer of the line after being resurrected.

After Buffy drowns, the line passes through Kendra and then through Faith. Which is why Buffy's death in 'The Gift' didn't activate a new slayer. When Buffy was resurrected, the mystical forces surrounding the slayer line are disrupted because she is called back to life as 'THE' warrior of the people. She is THE slayer and not just a slayer as she was from Season 2 thru Season 5. Willow resurrecting Buffy in this way split the slayer line in two, so that Buffy and Faith now both had the power to activate another slayer upon their death.
_________________________________________________
Quotes from Buffyworld.com, with a bit of moving around:

"Bargaining pt 1"

WILLOW:

Osiris, keeper of the gate, master of all fate, hear us.
Before time, and after. Before knowing and nothing.
Accept our offering. Know our prayer.
Osiris! Here lies the warrior of the people. Let her cross over.
Osiris, let her cross over! Aah...
Osiris, release her!

"Showtime"

BELJOXA'S EYE
The mystical forces surrounding the chosen line have become irrevocably altered, become unstable, vulnerable…The First Evil did not cause the disruption, only seized upon it to extinguish the lives of the chosen forever.
GILES
Then what has caused the disruption? What—what is responsible for letting this happen?
BELJOXA'S EYE
The slayer.
ANYA
(limping) Yeah, I just—I don't understand how Buffy's death mucked up the whole slayer mojo. You know, it's not like she hasn't died before.
GILES
It's not because she died. The Beljoxa's Eye was quite clear about that in its enigmatic way. It's because she lives. Again. Buffy's not responsible for that.
_________________________________________________

It's just a theory, but I prefer it to believing that everyone of the Scoobies and Buffy are acting like idiots whenever they say Buffy's death would call a new slayer in Season 7. Plus how else to explain the slayer line being vulnerable?

I don't think we know enough about the spell Willow performed to 'release the essence of the scythe' to understand how slayers are chosen anymore. 'Release the essence', gee can you vague that up for me a bit? All Willow ever said was 'oh my goddess' and then bam slayers.

We'll have to wait and see if the comics expain the link between being chosen, the scythe and the slayer line passing onto new potentials. Right now, there's not enough info.

*Incredibly long post here, but I felt it was worth going into detail. Hopefully someone will actually read the novel-esque length of it.

[wenxina]

I did read the novel-esque length reply, and while I think that it is totally plausible, I don't think it completely rules out the other explanation, that Buffy and the rest don't know quite enough about the Slayer line to be 100% correct at all times.
Let's not forget that 2 slayers existing side-by-side was unprecedented, as Giles mentions in Season 2 when Kendra shows up.
Buffy died a "natural" death, and was resuscitated "naturally". But a death all the same, and Kendra was called. And when Kendra died, Faith was called. Status quo remained the same... no disruption in the Slayer mythos yet.
At least not that we know. I don't think the Beljoxa's Eye was very specific about when the Slayer line was disrupted. It could very well have been since the end of Season 1. The First was already making some moves that we know of in Season 3 (i.e. trying to get Angel to kill Buffy... therefore bringing the slayer count down to 1); who's to say that It wasn't doing more behind-the-scenes, before and since then? Maybe the line had already been disrupted the first time Buffy came back, and it has nothing to do with the line being split, but because two slayers now coexist, throwing the cosmic balance out of whack, since the original status quo was one girl, one world of demons. As you mentioned, Buffy's second death didn't call another girl into active duty, meaning that the line has moved on to Faith.
Also, to gather the force of Bringers would have taken time. Nevermind that, to gather intel about where all the Potentials of the world were is no small feat. Being incorporeal kinda stinks when you can't flip the giant address book at the Watcher's Council. Best way would be to seduce someone on the inside, but even that takes time.
Given all that, I'd add to your list of things we need to know before we can argue the nitty-gritties of Slayerhood: When exactly was the line disrupted. Very recently to a seer in an alternate dimension could mean anything from a second ago to possibly eons.

[Emmie]

wenxina said:

Being incorporeal kinda stinks when you can't flip the giant address book at the Watcher's Council.

i love that image lol.

really we don't have enough info to make any kind of concrete answer. but in trying to narrow down the timeframe of events, the first targeted Angel in Season 3 in order to push him towards suicide (and maybe kill buffy too). if the first had knowledge of the amulet at that point, it would seem the motive here is to remove Angel from the equation as a possible threat. buffy wasn't really a target at this point, just an added bonus if she died too. if the first was genuinely trying to orchestrate her death at this point and her death would have removed any disruption to the slayer line, wouldn't that suggest that there wasn't a disruption to begin with during season 3? but its not explicitly stated nor motivation proven so its all a guessing game.

Before Buffy's resurrection, only overtly targeted Angel. Post-resurrection, overtly targeted the potentials and the watcher's council. Plus the mystical disturbance didn't have to exist as far back as season 2 and 3 for the First to start preparing its strike. The first is a force so powerful that it would be connected to something that could foretell the resurrection of a slayer and the ensuing weakness it would cause.

its all speculation but isn't it fun

[wenxina]

emmie said:

really we don't have enough info to make any kind of concrete answer. but in trying to narrow down the timeframe of events, the first targeted Angel in Season 3 in order to push him towards suicide (and maybe kill buffy too). if the first had knowledge of the amulet at that point, it would seem the motive here is to remove Angel from the equation as a possible threat. buffy wasn't really a target at this point, just an added bonus if she died too. if the first was genuinely trying to orchestrate her death at this point and her death would have removed any disruption to the slayer line, wouldn't that suggest that there wasn't a disruption to begin with during season 3? but its not explicitly stated nor motivation proven so its all a guessing game.

I thought the First's plan was to eliminate Buffy first and foremost; It didn't foresee Angel having the strength to commit suicide, but decided that it would be a perk anyway.
But to answer your question, wouldn't the point of disruption be all that is needed for the First to pounce?
I agree that the pattern is pretty clear, the all out attack on the Slayer line was only obvious in Season 7, post-resurrection, but heck, even a force as primal as the First has to know when to lay low, especially when It can't really do anything. So unless all the pieces are exactly where it wants them to be, what's the point in acting. Plus, what better way to learn about your enemy than to see her defeat foe after foe, ranging from giant snake to daft hell god.

Could be interesting to see how the First factors into Season 8. It cannot be destroyed, so heck, It's still out there. I'm just interested in seeing how It manifests itself in the baddies this time around. And if the disruption was caused by having 2 slayers together, I wonder what the Beljoxa's Eye will have to say about 2000.

[Emmie]

If we could narrow down when the disruption occurred, we could have a working theory.

But if the First's prime motive was to have Angel kill Buffy, wouldn't that negate a disruption from having 2 slayers exist and remove the First's advantage?

I always felt that the First wanted Angel to commit suicide by haunting him with his past victims, making him feel horribly guilty than giving him a dream of killing Buffy to scare the bejeezus out of him. He'd then realize what a danger he was to everyone around him and kill himself. I don't think the First had any hope of convincing Angel into becoming a monster and killing Buffy; it just played on Angel's worst fear of causing Buffy's death.

[wenxina]

emmie said:

But if the First's prime motive was to have Angel kill Buffy, wouldn't that negate a disruption from having 2 slayers exist and remove the First's advantage?

This was in Season 3 though... if the disruption was indeed caused by the presence of 2 slayers at the same time, the disruption had already occured when Xander resuscitated Buffy since Kendra was already called the moment Buffy died.
But I see what you mean about returning things to status quo. My guess (wow, another one!), knock one down, manipulate the less stable one, kill the Potentials, double-cross the psycho, and voila, no more Chosen One.
Which would have sucked since the grand scheme of Season 7 would never have played out, and hell, no Fray in the far future.
However, I don't see the disruption so much as an advantage for the First, rather an opportunity. Although coming to think of it, what exactly does that signify? I mean, the Potentials have always been there, weak and helpless as ever. Why wait for 2 slayers to come about before acting? Even if the disruption was caused by a split Slayer lineage, how does that equal "vulnerable"? From where I stand... you'd think the 2 for 1 combo might be something to stay away from.
Suddenly, I'm kinda confused.

I'm off... this was fun... maybe I'll do this more often. AFTER writing my 15+ page draft of a term paper on sex hormones that is. GAH! There are days I wonder if I'm cut out for this or if I'm in the wrong field.