El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jul 26, 2008 2:36:44 GMT -5
*Walks sleepily into El Diablo's Wall o' Text* Ow, mommy this mortal wound is all itchy! There was a lot there worth responding to. Besides, this place has been dead lately. Would you rather go back to the "Hey, maybe Twilight is Oz's mom!" sorts of posts? I always try to be friends with everybody.
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Post by Emmie on Jul 26, 2008 2:39:43 GMT -5
Well I always look for ways to sneak the phrase "wall o' text" into the conversation. I'm still trying to figure out how I can "vomit rainbows all over it" as well. ;D
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Post by wenxina on Jul 26, 2008 11:21:55 GMT -5
Well yeah it's over and I'm not emotionally crazed over Buffy/Satsu anymore. Or rather emotionally-thrown. But this has been the most interesting discussion we've had in the past week or so. Barring the Centaur Dawn/phases debate. Somebody wanna stir the pot? Xi? U wanna fight? Hmm fight... are we talking with acrylic nails and faux hair extensions? Like a real ghetto bitca fight? Coz if so, I need to get my accessories, and then we can go at it Xander/Harmony style. The S8 board has been pretty dead so far, so I appreciate the sudden spike in read-worthy posts. And to answer El Diablo, no please let's NOT go back to the "Oz's grandma is like SO ttly Twilight, like duh!" posts.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jul 26, 2008 13:30:59 GMT -5
Since I've got some free time right now, and want to give Emmie another chance to use "wall 'o text" (sorry, no luck yet for finding a use for "vomiting rainbows" ), I'll try to make a solid case for why Satsu is not the "man on the inside". Pull up a chair--this could get a bit lengthy. There are two main premises to work off of: either Amy's "true love" spell was legit, and exactly what she claimed it was... or it wasn't. If it wasn't:...Then it was a ruse, something designed for Satsu's--and only Satsu's!--kiss to wake her up, regardless of her feelings (or lack thereof). The only reason for that would be to "prove" to Buffy that she was in love with her, as a way of getting her in closer with Buffy, either short-term or long-term. But if that was the intention, Satsu didn't do a very good job of carrying it off. She didn't step up (pretending to be determined-yet-very-embarassed) and kiss Buffy in full view of everyone. She waited until Willow told them to close their eyes, came forward and did it, and then quickly retreated into the background so that nobody suspected her. She didn't admit to Buffy later that she was the one who'd done it, or reveal her feelings for her. She stayed silent about it until Buffy confronted her, so if Twilight's plan relied in any way on using her "love" for Buffy to her advantage, she was sure taking her sweet-ass time getting around to it. But finally, those feelings are revealed, and it's time to get around to putting her evil plan into action. So what exactly is that evil plan? Well, A) she could've hoped to engage Buffy in a serious, committed relationship. This would be a great spot for a mole, because as Buffy's girlfriend she'd be certain of being included in all the top-level meetings (think Kennedy in S7), where she'd have access to the highest level of info in the Slayer organization. She could even try to subtly influence Buffy's decision-making, get her to do things that would better benefit Twilight's ultimate plan. But if this was her goal, then she gives up on it very quickly when she asks for a transfer. Or B) She could've intended all along to attempt to get herself put in charge of a group of slayers. The flaws with that idea, tho: - She would've had no guarantee that there'd be a job opening at the top of one of the slayer teams around the world anytime soon. Because there's no direct link between Toru and Twilight (quite the contrary, because there's a much more obvious link that runs thru Kumiko and Saga Vasuki), then we can't point to Aiko's death as being an obviously-deliberate act intended to clear the way for Satsu. The scene where Aiko is killed also argues against that, because the vamps showed no indication that they were targeting her specifically. - Satsu would've had to have had an excuse for wanting to get away from Buffy, which gets back to the thing about her taking her time in revealing her feelings for Buffy. - Being in charge of a large group of superpowered girls is a good position to be in--she could potentially bend them to her will and use them as an army against Buffy in support of Twilight. But it's still not as good a position from a mole-standpoint as being Buffy's girlfriend. And even if she hadn't gotten into a serious relationship with her, she likely would've been a trusted confidante, and Buffy's top choice of partners (slaying, not sexual) and her right-hand woman. There was a Tom Clancy novel once where a member of the President's personal Secret Service detail was a sleeper agent who's mission was to assassinate him at a specific time. By staying in Scotland with Buffy, Satsu would've been in a similar position, able to take Buffy out while her back was turned at almost any point, quickly and efficiently. So transferring out and away from her is actually putting herself in a less-advantageous position. Let's see, already covered why the "sex in #12 was a distraction" theory doesn't hold much water... :unsure: Also explained why the timing of the missile hit actually seems to point to her not being the mole. Twilight almost surely knew that Buffy was gone and wouldn't be home for awhile, and he would have no obvious way of knowing that unless his source of info still lived there. Twilight has already made it clear (in #9 and #11) that he apparently doesn't want to kill Buffy. To say he's "capricious", well, there's a big difference between changing his mind and deciding to smack Buffy around a bit (but remember, his main purpose there, at least according to him, was to talk to her, and he still accomplished that), and completely reversing his carefully laid-out plan and deciding to eliminate her. And to say that "By transferring to Tokyo, she's so far out of sight and mind that her cover never comes into question", well, apparently not, since that very thing is what set off instant alarm bells for the anti-Satsu crowd. If the timing of that transfer looks fishy to the fans, why wouldn't it look just as fishy to the characters? And if Amy's spell was exactly what she said it was:...Then Satsu does love Buffy, and is "passionately devoted to her". So why would she want to hurt her by secretly working against her? All those things, taken collectively, really seem to require a strong defiance of logic to continue to support the case against her... ...which doesn't necessarily mean anything, because using logic and reasoning to predict a plot development in the Whedonverse doesn't always work. The reason for the First holding a trigger over Spike in S7, and why Angelus was "crucial" to Evil Cordy's plan in S4, or the specifics of Lindsey's scheme in S5 didn't seem to have much long-term thought put into them beforehand. My only hope here is that this will be different, because Joss is in charge of this story, and in those particular earlier seasons, he was busy with other projects and not as involved in the specifics of the various (sub)plots...
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Post by Emmie on Jul 26, 2008 14:07:53 GMT -5
El Diablo, we don't know much about the motivation of the mole. But they could be forced to help Twilight's cause under duress. If that's the case, it could explain Satsu taking her "sweet-ass time" getting in close with Buffy until she was finally pressed to do it by Twilight appearing in A Beautiful Sunset and kicking Buffy's ass.
After Twilight's appearance in ABS, Satsu's actions certainly became more aggressive.
The one downside to making Buffy/Satsu's fling part of a mole conspiracy is that it probably would be taken as a stab at the LBGT community.
But consider if Satsu were being coerced into this position by Twilight. Doesn't that make her an even more interesting character? It adds even more depth for me, giving her a history and emotional resonance. Plus it means she's not necessarily evil, just being forced to do something against her will. I'm thinking coercion along the lines of serious threats to a family member or loved one since Twilight has already shown he's willing to commit murder.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jul 26, 2008 15:17:13 GMT -5
El Diablo, we don't know much about the motivation of the mole. But they could be forced to help Twilight's cause under duress. If that's the case, it could explain Satsu taking her "sweet-ass time" getting in close with Buffy until she was finally pressed to do it by Twilight appearing in A Beautiful Sunset and kicking Buffy's ass. After Twilight's appearance in ABS, Satsu's actions certainly became more aggressive. But consider if Satsu were being coerced into this position by Twilight. Doesn't that make her an even more interesting character? It adds even more depth for me, giving her a history and emotional resonance. Plus it means she's not necessarily evil, just being forced to do something against her will. I'm thinking coercion along the lines of serious threats to a family member or loved one since Twilight has already shown he's willing to commit murder. That's an interesting possibility that I admit to not considering before, but even so, I don't see how it changes anything. It still doesn't directly argue against any of the above points that show why Twilight's possible goals for her don't make a lot of sense. If Satsu is being coerced, then not doing what she was told--dragging her feet up to ABS, for example--wouldn't be a smart move, because she'd be risking dire consequences (whatever those might be). It doesn't do anything to disprove the fact that it's more advantageous for Twilight to have a minion who is very close--physically and personally--to the leader of his enemies, so it doesn't benefit him to want her to leave and take over the Tokyo group (it also doesn't do anything to explain away the string of coincidences necessary to get her into that new position). And if she did it to thwart him, and give herself a way out without having to continue to work against Buffy, then again, she's risking dire consequences by directly opposing his wishes. So yeah, good thought, but I don't see where it specifically refutes any of the various arguments against it. I don't think that would be something that would stop Joss from doing it if he thought it made for a good story, but another reason that I don't think it's part of any insidious plot is that if you read Joss's interviews about it (including the recent afterellen.com one), it sounds like the "Satsu's crush" thing was something that he had no definite plans for, even as the first 10 issues were being written, and that it was Goddard's idea once they sat down to break the story for WatG. So to make the decision then that Satsu would turn out to be an agent of Twilight secretly working against Buffy is a pretty major new subplot to add in at that point. Joss is a good enough writer to work it in there, even that late, but just reading those interviews with him about it, that's not the impression I get. I can't point to anything specifically that he said, but like I said: it was an impression. I think this one is just an honest case of "what you see is what you get".
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Post by xmadxscientistx on Jul 26, 2008 23:25:10 GMT -5
Anybody here seen Disney's "Hercules?" Kinda familiar thoughts...
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Post by Emmie on Jul 27, 2008 3:46:32 GMT -5
So yeah, good thought, but I don't see where it specifically refutes any of the various arguments against it. Pssst I'll admit I was very tired when I posted my new theory about a mole-motivation and did not read your wall o' text. *goes to read now* I don't think that would be something that would stop Joss from doing it if he thought it made for a good story, but another reason that I don't think it's part of any insidious plot is that if you read Joss's interviews about it (including the recent afterellen.com one), it sounds like the "Satsu's crush" thing was something that he had no definite plans for, even as the first 10 issues were being written, and that it was Goddard's idea once they sat down to break the story for WatG. So to make the decision then that Satsu would turn out to be an agent of Twilight secretly working against Buffy is a pretty major new subplot to add in at that point. Joss is a good enough writer to work it in there, even that late, but just reading those interviews with him about it, that's not the impression I get. I can't point to anything specifically that he said, but like I said: it was an impression. I think this one is just an honest case of "what you see is what you get". Actually, I think it was Goddard's idea to just "do it" as in just throw Buffy and Satsu into bed in WatG rather than have an involved build-up. I believe the Buffy/Satsu fling was planned by Joss from the beginning, but that Goddard had input on how it would occur, its execution - quite simply tossing us in the deep end and Buffy into a relationship right away so they could get into the nitty-gritty. So as for there being no definite plans for Satsu, I don't think that is the case. My understanding of the writers' process for the main story arcs is they are hammered out by Joss as Executive Producer who then hands out an outline of the main plot points and character development to the arc writers. Something as huge as Buffy/Satsu, I don't think that was tossed in haphazardly. So not so much a matter of making the new plot point decision *then* - although really how are we to know when what ideas occurred to the writers? Part of my interest in Satsu being the mole is I want her to have a more important role in the main story than just Buffy's "naked fun" buddy and her student. Every scene with her has revolved around Buffy's interaction with her and she is the most developed new character we've got in the new comic medium. I'd like for her to be more than Buffy's slayer student and her fling - both these roles are all about Buffy from my perspective. So what is Satsu supposed to be doing right now anyway? Just pining away for Buffy in Tokyo? It seems WAY cooler to me that she might actually have some interaction with Twilight as his unwilling informant, maybe one who will turn on Twilight as the season progresses.
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vampmogs
Novice Witch
[Mo0:16]
Posts: 208
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Post by vampmogs on Aug 21, 2008 3:10:22 GMT -5
A part of me is fascinated by the idea Satsu could be the mole. It'd most certainly add a new layer onto her character and really a new perspective onto everything she's done up until now. I love when you see a story, and then when you learn a new piece of information you see the story in a whole new way. It's kind of like what Buffy says to Willow in 'Choices' about you think you're seeing something, then it turns out it's something else entirely. I've love to be able to read back over my issues of season eight and see how Satsu's mind worked as she manipulated her way into Buffy's inner circle, created a trust, got the position she has now.. all whilst working for Twilight. But overall, I'm not sure the momentary pleasure of the twist would outlast the disappointment I'd have that Satsu was revealed to be bad. The way I interpreted the message behind Buffy/Satsu was that, yes it was about experimentation but it was also about other things as well. It was about Buffy abusing her power by sleeping with a subordinate, it was about creating more tension between Buffy/Willow as Willow begins to worry about Buffy's decisions more, but more predominantly it was all about teaching Buffy a valuable lesson about relationships. "A Beautiful Sunset" had Buffy weeping as she spoke of her doomed relationships, how all of them ended badly one way or another. She wanted to feel a connection and Satsu was willing to give her that connection and when the relationship ended Buffy learnt that not every relationship has to end horribly. That's how I interpreted the message behind Buffy/Satsu, that it gave Buffy hope that things can end in a mature and healthy way. It gave her hope that someone she gets involved with doesn't die, she thought Satsu had the "power point presentation" after Twilight's attack in the cemetery, but here is Satsu alive and kicking, ready to fight another day. Seeing the smile on Buffy's face in her finale conversation after Satsu, and seeing how happy and together she is in 'Time of Your Life' gave me hope Buffy had finally experienced a nice relationship that wasn't too heavy and angst. If Satsu turns out to be the mole, that's pretty much ruined. I'm just not sure which one I'd prefer. Is the mole angle really worth tarnishing such valuable growth for Buffy's character? I'm just torn between the two.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Aug 21, 2008 5:35:29 GMT -5
The only thing I have left to say about this is that I would have liked to see them on a date.
Perhaps Buffy decided not to date Satsu because a)she already knew Satsu well enough to know that she wouldn't fall for Satsu b)she didn't have time for a relationship or C) that she didn't think she could be gay
I hope that it's A or B, because if it's C I'm losing some of my respect for her. She could miss out on something amazing because of "I likes guys not girls, because that is what society tells me" It could be A & C of course, that Buffy doesn't have enough time to find out if she could make it work.
Or perhaps it's D) She's not gay enough to want a long term thing, just one-night-stands. She doesn't find girsl attractive eough.
Buffy had issue 5-10 to think it through, so she probably didn't judge that quickly, I just want to know if she rejected satsu because she didn't want to take a chance with a girl.
Of course, there's alternative E)That she didn't even consider it because she's too afraid to open her heart to anyone, man or female.
That alternative might be the worst.
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pulse
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 5
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Post by pulse on Oct 14, 2009 7:13:27 GMT -5
Yea Skytte I'm thinking D...
I mean I've known "straight" girls who like to make out with hook up with guys and girls, yet I also know "gay" girls that do the same with guys. You could easily say that they are bisexual, but man these categories are so strange.. it's like well if Buffy likes to hook up with Satsu, but she knows she'll only feel love with a guy, what does that make her? Bi or straight... lol waaaay too complicated to even care
Personally, I love the relationship. Yea I totally get the OOC thing, but I mean I've been pretty surprised by some girls I've known so like who knows.
If satsu was the mole, that would be SOOOO upsetting, though in terms of continuity, I don't think it could possibly make sense.
Apparently I heard these two aren't over over, so it'll be cool to see where it goes.
Honestly I don't want to see them live happily ever, not because I want Buffy to be straight... I just don't think she gets that life ever
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Faith5byFive
Psychic Link to the PTB
Five By Five![/b]
FaithLehane & Angel(us)[Mo0:2]
Posts: 831
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Post by Faith5byFive on Feb 19, 2010 9:15:58 GMT -5
Im saying not.
It seemed too sudden for me and no real reason for it. Also i think gay storylines are tacky. One is enough the Willow & Tara thing fitted in perfectly for Buffy but then the whole Willow & Kennedy thing was plain awful and not needed i think. And iv'e never seen Buffy as a gay character she's always based herself around men.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 19, 2010 9:57:33 GMT -5
Im saying not. It seemed too sudden for me and no real reason for it.Also i think gay storylines are tacky. One is enough the Willow & Tara thing fitted in perfectly for Buffy but then the whole Willow & Kennedy thing was plain awful and not needed i think. And iv'e never seen Buffy as a gay character she's always based herself around men. Ever saw Willow as a gay character before Tara? She liked boys then too. How is "one gay storyline is enough" ever a good argument for anything? Is one straight storyline enough? And PS, it's not like Buffy is actually gay now. She even goes so far as to call it a "phase" later on in the season (#31). Plus, the "reason" for it. Let's see (spoiler-tagged, since you apparently just bought the first 3 volumes, and therefore aren't caught up yet, but if you really want to know, click). There's 1) showing that Buffy can have a mature relationship (albeit brief), and not have it end in ugliness. That's in reference to her "My love life sucks!" chat with Satsu in #11. 2) It pushes a new character forward, and allows her to develop into her own person, rather than just be the girl with the cool outfits and hair. Oh wait, same thing was done with Tara, no? 3) It didn't happen "suddenly". Inklings were being thrown about since "TLWH". We know that Satsu loves Buffy, and it was her that woke Buffy up from the sleep. There was that talk in #11. Then the sex in #12. Which is something they both wanted. 4) It also conveniently makes her "too late" again for love, this time with Xander. This will become evident in "Retreat" and #31. And so, I find it amusing that you're jumping on the "no reason at all" bandwagon, when you're not even halfway through the season yet. [Edited for kindness]
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Darth Rosie
Ensouled Vampire
I do doodle
Keeper of Didacity [? Astray][Mo0:12]
Posts: 1,392
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Post by Darth Rosie on Feb 19, 2010 9:58:06 GMT -5
I thought it was great. I know gay storylines are tacky, but I for one am glad when they exist because all in all there are not enough. Buffy, I think, was driven by a real emotional need and physical longing, and Satsu was there and in love with her and Buffy was infatuated by this love. She let her guard down and did it. For me, this is not even "experimenting", it's something deeper and more meaningful. It has to do with human connection. Just my feelings put in feeble words.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 19, 2010 10:26:10 GMT -5
Gay storylines are "tacky" at more or less exactly the same proportion that straight storylines are. Unless of course you belong to the "gay people are icky" camp, in which case there's probably no solution except to actually meet and get to know a few gay people.
Two years later, Buffy and Satsu are still my favorite thing about season 8, I still think she's the one partner who'd be best for Buffy right now if Joss were allowing her any chance at happiness, and I still hold out hope there will be more to it. In fact, she's probably the most compatible partner Buffy has ever had.
We know Buffy is attracted to Satsu emotionally, and we know she's attracted to her physically. We've seen quite a few popular 'ships in the Buffyverse with less of a basis than that.
They've devoted quite a bit of real estate in the comic to this relationship and its fallout, and I certainly hope some kind of story payoff is going to be forthcoming... next season if not this one, should Satsu survive it (crosses fingers). Scott Allie seemed to be under the impression there was more to follow.
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Darth Rosie
Ensouled Vampire
I do doodle
Keeper of Didacity [? Astray][Mo0:12]
Posts: 1,392
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Post by Darth Rosie on Feb 19, 2010 11:05:00 GMT -5
The only reason why I said that gay storylines are tacky was that they are often exploited. In Buffy, clearly, it was not. Just to clarify my position
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Randi Giles
Wise-cracking Sidekick
I Want to Believe
Moon Eyes in disguise.[Mo0:34]
Posts: 2,616
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Post by Randi Giles on Feb 19, 2010 23:28:59 GMT -5
Ever saw Willow as a gay character before Tara? She liked boys then too. How is "one gay storyline is enough" ever a good argument for anything? Is one straight storyline enough? And PS, it's not like Buffy is actually gay now. She even goes so far as to call it a "phase" later on in the season (#31). Plus, the "reason" for it. Let's see (spoiler-tagged, since you apparently just bought the first 3 volumes, and therefore aren't caught up yet, but if you really want to know, click). First off I voted bad choice sorry so late to the game. I have to say that the Buffy and Satsu thing was tacky because it came out of nowhere for me and Buffy has just always been so boy crazy. With Willow and Tara though it was different. No I didn't see Willow as a gay character at first, but at least we actually got to see her development into that stage of her life when she did turn gay unlike with Buffy. I have to agree that in Buffy's case the gay storyline was exploited and I always hate it when they do that.(flashback to the O.C.) I hate it. I know some people experiment and/or go through a phase, but also some people don't. I always think of Buffy as a person who don't. If Anya were still alive I'll take her as a person who does. Anyway there's just no need for it to be exploited. Make it a legit storyline instead of trying to get quick extra bucks.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 20, 2010 0:30:24 GMT -5
With Willow and Tara though it was different. No I didn't see Willow as a gay character at first, but at least we actually got to see her development into that stage of her life when she did turn gay unlike with Buffy. Going to college and meeting a person who shares a similar interest in witchcraft constitutes "development" of the gay storyline? Just as with the "Willow moved on too quickly from Tara" argument, this one strikes me as just a wee bit biased. No one complained when Willow went from Oz to Tara within the same season. Well, except maybe the hardcore Willow/Oz shippers. By your own admission, the inability to accept the plot development (which always felt organic to me) stems from your own perception as Buffy being "boy crazy".
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Randi Giles
Wise-cracking Sidekick
I Want to Believe
Moon Eyes in disguise.[Mo0:34]
Posts: 2,616
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Post by Randi Giles on Feb 20, 2010 0:51:34 GMT -5
With Willow and Tara though it was different. No I didn't see Willow as a gay character at first, but at least we actually got to see her development into that stage of her life when she did turn gay unlike with Buffy. Going to college and meeting a person who shares a similar interest in witchcraft constitutes "development" of the gay storyline? Just as with the "Willow moved on too quickly from Tara" argument, this one strikes me as just a wee bit biased. No one complained when Willow went from Oz to Tara within the same season. Well, except maybe the hardcore Willow/Oz shippers. By your own admission, the inability to accept the plot development (which always felt organic to me) stems from your own perception as Buffy being "boy crazy". I actually didn't deal with the Willow and Tara at all at first I had to learn to deal with it by rewatching honestly. And I think it was obviously more than witchcraft between the two in the span of a few episodes. With Buffy I flipped a page and she was in a bed with some chick. Lol. And it was within Wolves.. and then it was seemingly over for now.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 20, 2010 1:03:13 GMT -5
Yes, because they used witchcraft as a metaphor largely for the sex. Sometimes very blatantly so. But regardless, same thing. Common interest + attraction = HGOGA. And really, it wasn't just a "flip a page" thing, though. As I said earlier, we at least knew of Satsu's love for Buffy very early on. And then we had Buffy acknowledging that love, but cautioning Satsu against it anyway, saying that her lovers always end up leaving, or dead. Having her dalliance with Satsu end the way it did showed that Buffy wasn't entirely doomed in terms of her love life. It didn't always have to be ugly. And as I said in the spoiler tagged bit of my earlier post, there are consequences, for better or worse, that affect how the season has gone by so far
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