Randi Giles
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Post by Randi Giles on Feb 20, 2010 1:29:22 GMT -5
True, I knew Buffy acknowledge Satsu feelings but as far as having HGOGA, (LOL) I wasn't expecting that. I still wish Joss gave us more preparation for it. I still think he just did that for other reason instead of staying entirely true to Buffyas a character on that one. Maybe the thing that ticks me off is that I really didn't see it coming. Don't get me wrong I love his work, but there are some things I wondered if he did just to sell a few extra copies. Example: I was watching the Buffy Reunion when I heard Buffy's gay. Next thing you know I'm on amazon. I just had to see how this came to be.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 20, 2010 1:38:00 GMT -5
That has more to do with fan reaction then his intent. Yes, we all know that sex sells, and I don't presume to think that Joss is ignorant of the fact. But if we're going to fault him for that, then we would have to fault him for her other relationships too. I mean, Buffy is a necrophiliac? Now that's gotta appeal to the kinky side of some people...
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Randi Giles
Wise-cracking Sidekick
I Want to Believe
Moon Eyes in disguise.[Mo0:34]
Posts: 2,616
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Post by Randi Giles on Feb 20, 2010 1:50:54 GMT -5
That has more to do with fan reaction then his intent. Yes, we all know that sex sells, and I don't presume to think that Joss is ignorant of the fact. But if we're going to fault him for that, then we would have to fault him for her other relationships too. I mean, Buffy is a necrophiliac? Now that's gotta appeal to the kinky side of some people... It wasn't so much about sex selling to me so much as him exploiting a gay storyline, which kind of disappoints me cause he did good with Willow and Tara and even Willow and Kennedy. (ducking for cover on that last part.) BTW on Buffy being a necrophiliac. Ewww. I have been shipping Buffy doing a dead guy all this time haven't I. Us Bangel and Spuffy fans are sick. LOL.
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BenTaylor3907
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Post by BenTaylor3907 on Feb 20, 2010 1:53:50 GMT -5
I mean, Buffy is a necrophiliac? Now that's gotta appeal to the kinky side of some people... Oh, it does. It does. Bwhahahaha. Just kidding. *shifty eyes* I'm not really into the whole Buffy/Satsu relationship. Don't get me wrong, I love the whole girl on girl action. It just seemed extremely out of character for Buffy. I just wish it didn't happen. You know?
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Post by wenxina on Feb 20, 2010 8:13:33 GMT -5
Whether or not it's exploitation can be debated. If it were done merely to sell issues, then yes, it was exploitation. However, as I've already argued, it is part of Buffy's character arc, and therefore, HGOGA-lover sale boost aside, it's not merely exploitation. As for OOC... I'd argue not. Buffy has used people before. Not saying that she necessarily used Satsu in the same way she used Spike in S6, but she was feeling lonely, and as she said, Satsu smells nice. Again, the idea here is Joss toying with his belief that sexuality is fluid, and that sometimes, people just feel attracted to a person, regardless of sex or gender. And really, I have no idea why it's such a big deal to people. I flipped the page, and was like, "Hmm... Buffy and Satsu... interesting..." Because people do experiment. Buffy clearly enjoyed it, enough for an encore performance at the end of #15, but it's not what she wants. That scene has been a really small plotpoint for me, but perhaps I'm just not fazed by human sexuality in general. It was something new to her. She has since decided that it isn't for her. At least for now.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 20, 2010 9:49:10 GMT -5
I'll never understand this fallacy of "Character A has never done B in the past, therefore character A may never do B in the future."
You can't have a story without character evolution.
People who never do anything unexpected or "out of character" aren't people, they're computer programs. Unusually stable computer programs, in fact. Reliable, predictable, and boring.
Buffy being with Satsu is less OOC than Willow hooking up with Tara, really. With Willow we had a girl who was very definitely attracted to boys in seasons 1-3, and fairly quickly shifted to being exclusively attracted to girls. With Buffy we have a character who was obviously attracted to boys, and is now attracted to boys and girls (or at least one specific girl.)
I find it irritating that every time a gay storyline pops up anywhere, certain people instantly dismiss it as "exploitation" regardless of the context or execution. It often seems like backdoor homophobia... "let's save the poor gay people from exploitation by never depicting homosexuality at all."
To dismiss Buffy/Satsu as gratuitous HGOGA is to claim that a) Joss is a bad, amateurish writer; b) he's an exploiter of gay storylines rather than a pioneer of them, and c) he was desperate... which would be an odd claim to make, since season 8 was a top 20 comic at that time and already the best-selling non-Marvel/DC title in the country.
The one thing I find sad about this storyline is that we find ourselves having to define the quality of Buffy's relationships by how cleanly or how messily they fail, not by whether they succeed or not.
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Darth Rosie
Ensouled Vampire
I do doodle
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Post by Darth Rosie on Feb 20, 2010 12:15:31 GMT -5
I like your point about acting OOC being a necessary part of character growth (if that is what you meant). *Karma*
Joss is respected by many as one of the most important pioneers in the field. And if reception says anything, the Buffy/Satsu relationship (or encounter) has been greeted with enthusiasm by many - not with anger because of alleged exploitation.
And I am not so sure whether Buffy/Satsu can really be called a failure. It is what it was: a sexual encounter embedded in attraction, need, and respect. And then one more, to fight the loneliness. I don't find that bad or a failure, I find it touching. If I'd been in Buffy's shoes, or even in Satsu's, I'd be quite content - and I also don't believe that any of them regrets what they did. And this is one important indicator.
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Faith5byFive
Psychic Link to the PTB
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Post by Faith5byFive on Feb 20, 2010 13:51:39 GMT -5
I think i always saw Willow as a gay character i don't think she was properly in love with Oz i think she was just desperate for a boyfriend and since she couldn't have Xander , Oz was the next best thing.
and as for you "apparentley comment" i have only just bought the first 3 volumes. Im not much into comics and i can't find the single issues anymore so i was told the volumes were the next best thing. In the volumes i never once noticed that Buffy & Satsu were gonna do stuff untill wolves at the gate and it just seemed all of a sudden. I think why Buffy did do it is because she's desperate as well she can't keep a boyfriend like she said because she feels she can't make it work with that "cookie dough" speech she says to Angel , Buffy and Satsu was a pathetic fling to spice up season 8 because alot of people wish Buffy was a gay character. Buffy and Satsu never would of took it any further it's obvious she's meant for Angel but the curse thing prevents that. i think all of her other relationships are flings because she cant be with the one person she had real love with. Riley and Buffy would never work. And Spike and Buffy never worked.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 20, 2010 14:40:06 GMT -5
Hit the "edit post" button and edit your previous post.
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The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
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Post by The Girl In Question on Feb 20, 2010 15:21:05 GMT -5
I didn't like Buff experimenting with Satsu at all. My problem is that for the past few years on TV, we've been bombarded with straight girls experimenting with woman (and often it's executed in a silly, demeaning way). It's becoming less of a "Oh look, we're showing a new side of sexuality that people should know about (or whatever)" thing, and more of a "Let's see two hot girls make out and see how many ratings we get!" Thing. I'm not saying that was Joss's intention, but in a time where that's happening, the whole "straight girl on girl" thing is becoming cliched. It's very irritating. I for one would have preferred seeing a straight male character experiment with another male character who goes back to women because he was only attracted to one man (if things don't work out with the man). I have never seen that before and I would find it much more refreshing than this shiz.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 20, 2010 15:50:16 GMT -5
Lesbianism can only become "cliched" if you consider it a gimmick that exists only in fiction, rather than an actual lifestyle that people live. Should we eliminate all straight romance from stories as well? They're certainly a HELL of a lot more cliched than gay storylines, which are still a whole lot rarer in the media than they are in real life. I know I'm getting kind of sick of the fact that two people of the opposite sex can't work together on TV without it being expected that they'll wind up in bed together. I think Steed and Emma Peel from "The Avengers" were the last exception to that rule.
I wish Joss would make Buffy a full-fledged lesbian, if for no other reason than to smash the expectation of "only one token gay relationship per story, and only among supporting characters."
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The Girl In Question
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Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
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Post by The Girl In Question on Feb 20, 2010 17:27:36 GMT -5
^^ I don't consider lesbianism a cliche. I consider a straight girl experimenting with another girl (in televison) a cliche. The "oh I'm straight and I'm gonna sleep with this girl and then go straight back to men" thing has been done to death. Not other forms of lesbianism, which is rare in TV.
But apparently because I'm sick of the straight girl experimenting storyline that means I want to ban all lesbian relationships from TV? I'm sick of the lead female and lead males always ending up together as well. That must mean I want to ban all straight relationships from TV.
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Faith5byFive
Psychic Link to the PTB
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Post by Faith5byFive on Feb 20, 2010 18:33:48 GMT -5
They never actually have lesbian characters. they always have a straight girl turn lesbian or a straight guy turn gay. And it's always done randomly. And then your like i don't get it .
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Post by wenxina on Feb 20, 2010 18:40:51 GMT -5
How do you think most people figure out their sexuality anyway? Some of us, know from the age of 5 that we like the same sex. And yet, there are many others who figure things out later. The great thing about trying out new things is that you may find that you like them. And if you like it more than what you were doing before, then cool. If you don't, cool too. If you like both, more power to you. If you like both, but depending on the person, there's nothing wrong with being discerning. And if you don't want to try new things, that's fine too. But you don't get to say "I don't get it" because you didn't want to try it. That's just being prejudiced.
I mean, if you wanna scratch your head at the laws of attraction, how does one go from one day not liking girls, thinking they have cooties and look funny to fantasizing about them? Or for girls to think that boys are smelly, obnoxious slobs (it doesn't ever go away for the most part) one day, and then do whatever it takes to (coyly, if you're a classy one, but some just drop it like it's hot) get their attention. Just because that's the "norm" doesn't make it less strange. And of course you don't get it... you're not exactly flying the 'bow now are you?
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Faith5byFive
Psychic Link to the PTB
Five By Five![/b]
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Post by Faith5byFive on Feb 20, 2010 19:42:28 GMT -5
It's only a comic book. everyones entittled to thier oppinnion. You can't know at 5 if your gay or not. You can't be 5 and kiss someone of the same sex and think oh im gay. And why would you wanna try new things if your straight what your saying sounds like everyone has to try it with the same sex to find out if your gay or not. I think your'e putting my Buffy / Satsu oppinion off topic and you've turned it into real life gay or straight debate. And you've misunderstood my point. the "i dont get it" was in response to the tv comment. Im saying people think hold on i dont get it if your watching a tv show and theres straight characters then for example one night theres a drunken kiss and then the two characters are like oh okay were gay now without having any gay experiances before.... so im not being prejudiced.
Iv'e never known anyone say oh i like girls then randomly go off and have sex with a guy and then be like oh that was fine now i like men. Because thats what your point says to me.
Whats flying the bow even mean? iv'e never heard of that befoere
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
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Post by Paul on Feb 20, 2010 20:29:20 GMT -5
I for one would have preferred seeing a straight male character experiment with another male character who goes back to women because he was only attracted to one man (if things don't work out with the man). I have never seen that before and I would find it much more refreshing than this shiz. The only example of this I can remember is Torchwood. In that, heterosexual Ianto falls in love with Captain Jack. He never "goes back to women" (getting killed kind of hindered that) but he does clarify in one episode that he's not gay, just in love with Jack. Torchwood is inconsistant quality-wise, but one thing it has achieved is "de-sensitising" people (myself included) to the concept of bisexuality. The characters sleep with whoever, no apologies made. In fact, Captain Jack comes from a future where the concepts of gay and straight no longer exist ("He's a fifty-first century guy. He's just a bit more flexible when it comes to 'dancing'.", "You people and your quaint little categories."). This was one of Russell T Davies' mission statements when he created Torchwood: Without making it political or dull, this is going to be a very bisexual programme. I want to knock down the barriers so we can't define which of the characters is gay. We need to start mixing things up, rather than thinking, 'This is a gay character and he'll only ever go off with men. At first, I didn't like this. I found it unrealistic that the characters didn't have clearly-defined sexualities. But actually, I think it's done wonders for the treatment and perception of LGBT characters in the media, particularly bisexuals. I think Davies is very ahead of his time, and his "who cares" approach to sexuality is the right way to go. As someone who used to be a little biphobic myself, it's definitely left me more open-minded. Maybe Captain Jack's future isn't sci fi after all? Another programme which handles sexuality surprisingly well is Shameless. True to it's title, it makes NO apologies for it's gay characters. It's like "we're going to show two guys bumming and if you don't like it, you can f*** off!" Last week's episode focused on bisexuality, but with a twist; homosexual Ian fell in love with a girl. The episode showed him struggling with these "unnatural" feelings, while fellow gay Mickey labelled him a "traitor" for abandoning his minority. It was brilliantly honest drama and one of the best LGBT stories I've seen on TV. You can't know at 5 if your gay or not. I was gay at age 5. I fancied Woody from Toy Story. Might not have understood it at the time, but in hindsight I was gaaaaaay. My friend says the same thing about Eric from Little Mermaid. (Maybe it's Disney turning us all into poofs? )
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The Girl In Question
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Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
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Post by The Girl In Question on Feb 20, 2010 20:46:26 GMT -5
[/i]. In that, heterosexual Ianto falls in love with Captain Jack. He never "goes back to women" (getting killed kind of hindered that) but he does clarify in one episode that he's not gay, just in love with Jack. Torchwood is inconsistant quality-wise, but one thing it has achieved is "de-sensitising" people (myself included) to the concept of bisexuality. The characters sleep with whoever, no apologies made. In fact, Captain Jack comes from a future where the concepts of gay and straight no longer exist ("He's a fifty-first century guy. He's just a bit more flexible when it comes to 'dancing'.", "You people and your quaint little categories."). Another programme which handles sexuality surprisingly well is Shameless. True to it's title, it makes NO apologies for it's gay characters. It's like "we're going to show two guys bumming and if you don't like it, you can f*** off!" Last week's episode focused on bisexuality, but with a twist; homosexual Ian fell in love with a girl. The episode showed him struggling with these "unnatural" feelings, while fellow gay Mickey labelled him a "traitor" for abandoning his minority. It was brilliantly honest drama and one of the best LGBT stories I've seen on TV. )[/quote] I want very much to see these shows A similar example of that relationship you mentioned in "Shamless" is Nip/Tuck. One of the main characters is Liz, and she's been established as a lesbian from the beginning. We even see her lesbian relationships at first hand. But in one of the later seasons she realizes she's in love with a man named Christian. She thought that meant she liked men so she tried to date another man, but she then realized that she was a lesbian that happened to fall in love with one man. I was gay at age 5. I fancied Woody from Toy Story. Might not have understood it at the time, but in hindsight I was gaaaaaay. My friend says the same thing about Eric from Little Mermaid. (Maybe it's Disney turning us all into poofs? ) Lol, my friend had a crush on Woody when she was little, too. I thought she was the only one!
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
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Post by Paul on Feb 20, 2010 21:08:38 GMT -5
I want very much to see these shows Here's the scene where Ianto talks about loving only Jack, not men in general. One of the best scenes in the series. I've heard Torchwood is popular in America so it shouldn't be hard to come across somewhere. Shameless might be harder to track down, don't know if that's available in the US. Might be a bit too raunchy for you lot. And some random Torchwood gayness (featuring our James Marsters no less!).
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 20, 2010 21:36:32 GMT -5
You know, I do agree that I'm tired of the "straight girl experiments with another girl" story. Which is why I'd rather Buffy realized that she's properly gay and got into a nice, healthy, rewarding relationship with Satsu. They both deserve it.
But I strongly disagree that the storyline has been out of character, cliched, or exploitative.
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collex
Potential Slayer
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Post by collex on Feb 20, 2010 21:59:16 GMT -5
I believe Joss had Buffy sleep with a girl and specifically a girl not because it sells, but because having Buffy dip into homosexuality only because she felt needy was a way to underscore how much she feels alone and need somebody, anybody. It could easily have been another man, but the point would not have been as strong. Season 6, she was needy so she went for the first thing available: a soulless corpse. Season 8, she did the same thing (though a girl is a btter than a soulless corpse) I didn't find the Satsu thing OOC. And just to drive the point home even more, after Satsu, who does she jump on, despite having never considering him in the past? Xander. Why? Because that all she has. Our Buffy really has a problem currently, and I fear the worst for her. And by the worst I mean hooking up with Angel as soon as she see him.
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