Melissa
Rogue Demon Hunter
I'm gonna be a fireman when the floods roll back.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 428
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Post by Melissa on Dec 2, 2007 18:34:07 GMT -5
This is crazy! I thought maybe more people were voting because the comic finally came out and it made them more interested. I guess not.
Cheating is awful and should not be tolerated. This is such a cool opportunity for the fans and it shouldn't be ruined by dishonest people.
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Post by sagewoman on Dec 2, 2007 18:43:37 GMT -5
I voted for my own idea. My husband joined the forum as well - and he voted for me too. He is a Buffy and Angel fan, just more interested in reading the posts than writing any - I'm the one in the family that typically does the correspondence (married people are more likely to understand this).
The Current werewolf/seer/villager game is my first forum game ever and he wanted to see what I thought of it before joining in on any games.
I offer my apologies - I had not even thought that it was inappropriate. I truly love being a part of SlayAlive and was sharing the joy with my hubby.
I cannot even see my PM's now so if anyone needs to email me, please send messages to me at jean@dcom.ca.
missing everyone a lot.....sagewoman
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jhay
Innocent Bystander
Posts: 2
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Post by jhay on Dec 2, 2007 18:48:42 GMT -5
Well I must say this is disappointing, but what I really don't understand is why so few people vote in the first place. There are over 450 members, and yet there are so few votes. This was my first time submitting an entry in the contest, and I just hope a few people's actions won't put an end to the whole contest entirely. It's up to TST/BCC and IDW to make the final decision, but hopefully this will dissuade others from attempting to find ways of cheating. I don't know if there is any way to fix this month's poll, but I'm sure whatever decision/solution you come up with will be a fair one.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Dec 2, 2007 19:03:26 GMT -5
I voted for my own idea. My husband joined the forum as well - and he voted for me too. He is a Buffy and Angel fan, just more interested in reading the posts than writing any - I'm the one in the family that typically does the correspondence (married people are more likely to understand this). The Current werewolf/seer/villager game is my first forum game ever and he wanted to see what I thought of it before joining in on any games. I offer my apologies - I had not even thought that it was inappropriate. I truly love being a part of SlayAlive and was sharing the joy with my hubby. I cannot even see my PM's now so if anyone needs to email me, please send messages to me at jean@dcom.ca. missing everyone a lot.....sagewoman Hey, your situation has been addressed and corrected Actually I am surprised that no one else has approached me. I guess they really don't care to be a part of this after all.
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Post by sagewoman on Dec 2, 2007 19:05:59 GMT -5
thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!
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BuffyFanOne
Ensouled Vampire
Warm, Delicious Cookie-Me
Claimer of Duchess Buffy![Mo0:24]
Posts: 1,933
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Post by BuffyFanOne on Dec 2, 2007 19:57:40 GMT -5
I understand Phil. I just wanted to be up front about there being 3 accounts on my ip address, to avoid anything that might come up later.
As far as the cheating goes, I really think that it should be treated with the most severe punishment that the forum has to offer. The accounts should be deleted and the IP addresses should be banned.
Now, that said, I realize that probably alto of people are going to think that is too harsh. I think that if the accounts are not deleted they should at least be suspended for a substantial amount of time and the cheaters should DEFINITELY not be able to continue in the Angel Interactive program.
Oh yeah....I just voted this round!
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Post by captainperoxideluv on Dec 2, 2007 20:11:05 GMT -5
This continues to be a messy situation. The first go round was handled inappropriately with some people's entries posted for voting before the deadline closed. And then, before this round, there were issues about "not enough" entries being submitted which Cowboyguy posted himself. Which, would lead one to believe that there were like 3-4 entries,. Then..... a day after the entries were supposed to be posted, there were a ton! Probably the same, if not more than the first round. It makes me wonder if the deadline might have been extended to get the entries up?? Whether, mistakes are intentional or not, it seems to me that there have been alot of inaccuracies related to this contest. So, now- is it surprising to me that people may have been " stuffing the ballot box" - hmmm not so much. Frankly, I don't see how you could prevent this being a popularity contest, with people enlisting their friends to vote for them. But, all I can tell you is this whole thing has left a sour taste in my mouth and one that will make me seriously reconsider my subscription to the series as it has been so mishandled. I truly don't care who "wins' a cover at this point, but I DO care that the submissions, voting, etc. are handled fairly and honeslty.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Dec 2, 2007 20:32:56 GMT -5
This continues to be a messy situation. The first go round was handled inappropriately with some people's entries posted for voting before the deadline closed. And then, before this round, there were issues about "not enough" entries being submitted which Cowboyguy posted himself. Which, would lead one to believe that there were like 3-4 entries,. Then..... a day after the entries were supposed to be posted, there were a ton! Probably the same, if not more than the first round. It makes me wonder if the deadline might have been extended to get the entries up?? Whether, mistakes are intentional or not, it seems to me that there have been alot of inaccuracies related to this contest. So, now- is it surprising to me that people may have been " stuffing the ballot box" - hmmm not so much. Frankly, I don't see how you could prevent this being a popularity contest, with people enlisting their friends to vote for them. But, all I can tell you is this whole thing has left a sour taste in my mouth and one that will make me seriously reconsider my subscription to the series as it has been so mishandled. I truly don't care who "wins' a cover at this point, but I DO care that the submissions, voting, etc. are handled fairly and honeslty. I agree that we have had some mishaps in the past months. But you must try to understand that we've never held anything like this before. This month would have gone smootly without problems, if not for discovering the "ballot stuffing". But on a positive note, this situation cannot be repeated as I have created precautions for new registers so I doubt there will be anymore kinks for the remaining 9 months. I never thought about this possibility, and now I will be more watchful of the whole thing.
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Post by captainperoxideluv on Dec 2, 2007 20:53:23 GMT -5
This continues to be a messy situation. The first go round was handled inappropriately with some people's entries posted for voting before the deadline closed. And then, before this round, there were issues about "not enough" entries being submitted which Cowboyguy posted himself. Which, would lead one to believe that there were like 3-4 entries,. Then..... a day after the entries were supposed to be posted, there were a ton! Probably the same, if not more than the first round. It makes me wonder if the deadline might have been extended to get the entries up?? Whether, mistakes are intentional or not, it seems to me that there have been alot of inaccuracies related to this contest. So, now- is it surprising to me that people may have been " stuffing the ballot box" - hmmm not so much. Frankly, I don't see how you could prevent this being a popularity contest, with people enlisting their friends to vote for them. But, all I can tell you is this whole thing has left a sour taste in my mouth and one that will make me seriously reconsider my subscription to the series as it has been so mishandled. I truly don't care who "wins' a cover at this point, but I DO care that the submissions, voting, etc. are handled fairly and honestly. I agree that we have had some mishaps in the past months. But you must try to understand that we've never held anything like this before. This month would have gone smootly without problems, if not for discovering the "ballot stuffing". But on a positive note, this situation cannot be repeated as I have created precautions for new registers so I doubt there will be anymore kinks for the remaining 9 months. I never thought about this possibility, and now I will be more watchful of the whole thing. CBG, I get your situation and I know this is a new endeavor, etc.- it's tough for you. However, it's incredibly naive to think that people wouldn't enlist their Friends to vote for them!. How could you or BCC not have foreseen this possibility? It's human nature. Beyond that,. you never addressed my concern that entries were allowed to be submitted after the deadline 11/28? You made a point of posting that there "weren't that many and that's not good'. So, why does it seem like there at least as many entries to vote on as in the the previous contests??? I guess not so few after all. I'd really like to believe that t all the entries listed for voting were actually rec'd by 11/28, but I can't help but wonder otherwise, given all the other "mishaps'. It's really a shame that something you had the best intentions to reinvigorate the Buffy/Angelverse has become so tarnished. But, for me that's what it's become.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Dec 2, 2007 20:56:12 GMT -5
Beth has sent this message to me, as well as the forum:
"I wanted to PM you on the site, but it looks like I've been banned now. I'd like to address a few of the things that have been said. First let me say that I love the Whedonverse and I love slayalive.com. It was so nice to find a place where fans come together. I did ask my husband, who is a Buffyverse fan and has seen every episode, to vote for me. He doesn't post on the forum because he is very shy, but he does read the forum. Sometimes my posts have to do with things he's said or we've discussed. I also asked my sister, my father-in-law and my mother-in-law to vote for me. They too have seen a lot of Buffy, mostly watching with me, and they are always buying me Buffy and Angel stuff for Christmas and birthdays. They wanted to support me in my endeavor, so they asked where I could vote. They did use my computer to do so. I'm not sure what is wrong with them voting for me if they wanted to. It's sorta like saying Hillary Clinton shouldn't have voted for Bill Clinton because she's married to him. I think friends and family vote for their loved ones because they want to show their love and support. I only asked the family members I did because they are the ones who have watched Buffy with me and always buy me Buffy stuff. The thing that would be considered cheating, in my opinion, is if someone set up a ton of fake email accounts and voted for themselves over and over. I did NOT do this and would definitely not ever do this. I am a good person. I am not a cheater. I think my concept was a good one and I think that it produced an amazing cover. I didn't vote for myself this round. I voted for someone else, as did my family members who had been voting. This person did not ask me to vote for them, but I did so because I was impressed with their devotion to the 'verse and I loved their concept. You listed a ton of emails supposedly from my IP address of people that I do not know, so I'm not sure if that is correct info. Tim said something about someone named piecesofme had the same IP address, and he knows that person posts regularly. I don't know this person, and they've never used my computer. I really hope that you post this in the forum, since I cannot defend myself, so that everyone can know that I'm not avoiding confrontation. I'm really sorry for any trouble caused by this. I hope the four votes of my husband, sister, and my in-laws will still be counted. Please let me know if I am banned permanently, as well as if my husband and his parents and my sister are banned permanently. I look forward to your response. ~Beth"
Here is my response:
You don't seem to understand how this looks to people who are not you.
Let's just say it was me, who did this.
You lose the contest, due to me having my mom, cousin, and two brothers (all of whom watched Buffy) come on and boost my vote. These people are unknown to the forum, are not actual members for which this contest is intended. They will never contribute with posts. It might as well be you who is creating the accounts, as we have no real way to prove that it is your family. Understand? It's just your word against what we have seen. It's not support your favorite person's concept. It is vote for the best concept itself. Which is why we keep them anonymous and don't announce who submitted what! Having people vote for you in support isn't right. This isn't a presidential election, so don't compare. You won a monetary prize and will be recognized in all the upcoming issues!
You will be unbanned, but know that this cannot happen again. The other accounts will be deleted. If anyone in your family wishes to be on the forum, they can register again.
Regards,
Philip
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Post by CowboyGuy on Dec 2, 2007 21:03:49 GMT -5
captainperoxideluv, oh sorry, forgot that part. Actually I was merely relaying what TST Kevin had said to me earlier in the week.
I might as well break down the inner workings so people will understand the process, cause it's pretty simple/not in my hands.
1) People submit their concept to TST
2) Kevin monitors them all and assigns the numbers, letting me know the status (ie - if we have a good amount/or not). If there are not many, I usually will post again to remind everyone to submit. Deadlines are definitely kept up. Tonight ends this voting, as a matter of fact.
3) After the deadline date, I am forwarded all the entries through email. No names are included, just the number(s). Virtually everything you are seeing in the topic-starter post is what I get.
The only thing, is that in this case I might have to find out who submitted what. Seeing as how this poll may/may not have been compromised, this is my solution.
All entries that had at least one vote this month will be submitted to IDW to be fair. Sound good?
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Post by captainperoxideluv on Dec 2, 2007 21:18:57 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing that, CBG. I believe you have been trying your best and your heart is in the right place. But, this is not an easy situation. Now, it's obvious that ballots have been stuffed, and not just for this go round.- see "confesssion" if you will, above. And how, going forward can we believe that this "contest" is fair? I'm just giving you my honest opinion. I voiced my concerns after the "mishaps" on the first round too. Only, because, I believe that if the playing field is not fair for all, ultimately nobody is going to want to play. And that's bad for your forum, the BCC and maybe even the Buffyverse that everyone so passionately wants to live on. What Would Buffy Do?
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Beth
Common Vampire
Hell On Wheels
Posts: 66
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Post by Beth on Dec 2, 2007 21:37:15 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing that, CBG. I believe you have been trying your best and your heart is in the right place. But, this is not an easy situation. Now, it's obvious that ballots have been stuffed, and not just for this go round.- see "confesssion" if you will, above. And how, going forward can we believe that this "contest" is fair? I'm just giving you my honest opinion. I voiced my concerns after the "mishaps" on the first round too. Only, because, I believe that if the playing field is not fair for all, ultimately nobody is going to want to play. And that's bad for your forum, the BCC and maybe even the Buffyverse that everyone so passionately wants to live on. What Would Buffy Do? Again, I did not stuff the ballot box. There is nothing in the rules stating that you can't have friends and family vote for you. I know Phil thinks it can't be likened to a presidential election or the like, but I still think it's the same. The president benefits from winning the election. He gets a salary and lots of exposure. After he leaves office, opportunities are open to him that were not previously open. He definitely benefits. I don't think that asking a few family members to vote for me is cheating. As I said, I think my concept was good and produced a good cover. Having said that, even though I've paid for my subscription, I will no longer take part in this contest, either by entering a concept or by voting, since everyone seems to think I am dishonest. I am not a bad person. I love the 'verse. I hope we can all move past this and be friends again. I think Phil does a great job running this forum, and I love that there is a place for us all to come together. ~Beth
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postitnote
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Dr. Erin
Willow Rox my Sox Off!
Posts: 639
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Post by postitnote on Dec 2, 2007 22:30:31 GMT -5
So, I'm a little confused. Was it established that the concept had a jump in votes for these reasons, and that it's not really in the lead?
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JBrow
Common Vampire
Posts: 68
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Post by JBrow on Dec 2, 2007 22:30:52 GMT -5
Really, did no one think something like this would happen?
As someone who's non-bias (I don't know Beth and am not part of the Angel subscription/never entered a concept) I have to say I do not think she was trying to cheat. As well, her concept was great and turned into an amazing cover - it was a fav. to win early on anyways was it not?
Telling your friends/family about something you've done and where you have done it, and then them supporting you is not the same as you making multiple accounts and voting for yourself. If I enter a concept and tell my family over at dinner my idea, and that the contest is on SlayAlive (or they already know I am a poster on SlayAlive) and they know how much winning means to me, of course you are going to have people joining just to support people they know. There isn't anything set-up to stop them from doing it. In fact it was even said when this all starter there were going to be a lot of new members joining because of the contest - and a large part of this was going to be from word of mouth of those involved.
I think it comes down to miscommunication and there was/is no way set-up to secure the voting, it's just a poll on a forum anyone can join. Maybe voting should be restricted with a password to those who are part of the subscription OR members get a password to vote BEFORE the concepts are posted, and new members have to wait until the next month of voting to get the new password.
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Melissa
Rogue Demon Hunter
I'm gonna be a fireman when the floods roll back.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 428
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Post by Melissa on Dec 3, 2007 0:16:07 GMT -5
But if someone's mother, father, brother, sister, aunt, uncle and cousins are voting for this it is not fair to the fans. I understand why the family members would want to vote and support their loved one but it is unfair to the other competitors. If I am ever to win, I want the people who vote for my entry to be huge fans like I am and read my concept and think that it would make a great cover for the comic, and one that they would want in their collection. Its for the fans, by the fans.
On the issue of when entries were submitted. I submitted mine right around 12am eastern the night the contest ended so there were a few hours left. I totally forgot about it until the last minute and had to spend a day brainstorming.
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Post by SlayerLV on Dec 3, 2007 0:42:20 GMT -5
Here's my small opinion. The votes are not to support someones ideas they are to pick the best one. I think if you really want family and friends who are fans of the buffyverse to vote they should vote for the concept they think is best, don't tell them which one is yours also.. By them doing that it proves that they are Buffyverse fans and not just your fans.
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JBrow
Common Vampire
Posts: 68
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Post by JBrow on Dec 3, 2007 1:24:20 GMT -5
I just wanted to clarify a point I made about family/friends...
What I was saying was if family/friends come on and vote for you at their own will, this is not the same thing as creating multiple accounts yourself to vote for yourself - if you are telling your family/friends too then it gets sticky, but it's pretty hard to prove RL conversations. I'm a graphic designer and I talk in detail about projects I'm working on to close friends and family, especially when they are involved in any sort of competition or I'm trying to land a client- they are my sounding board. If they could tell a client to pick my work I'm sure they would, I wouldn't have to tell them to.
I agree the voting should be by the fans for the concept that fits best that month. However, there was nothing in place to make sure this was the case AND the issue about recruiting friends/family who may or may not be fans to join and vote was never borough up before. The poll is open to all SlayAlive members, and membership to SlayAlive was open so anyone could join - true Buffy fans or not.
I think some people acted innocently, and others were trying to cheat on purpose (the 3letter usernames for example). Beth's concept was great and the cover is beautiful and I think would have been selected regardless. What's done is done. Steps have been taken to make sure Issue 4 finishes properly and the rest of the voting goes well. Since this is a new endeavor something was bound to happen, at least it was brought up early and not at the end of the run - brining every winning issue into question.
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Post by itmustbebunnies418 on Dec 3, 2007 3:19:02 GMT -5
I can't believe all the uproar surrounding this contest...and frankly, I didn't expect it.
I was a little confused myself about the rules, but even still, I would never have asked my friends/family to vote for my entry (I will never submit one anyways...but even still...).
IMO, the contest was set up for SlayAlive members, and FANS of the comic and series itself. It should mostly reach out to those actually interested in the comic book, and those who are planning on buying it. I mean, if people were voting that just loved the shows, we'd have a lot more votes in the contest.
I have a feeling that the majority of voters are those that are buying the comics, and are actually interested in the variant covers, etc. I mean, yea, your family might like your idea, and want to help you win the contest. But, in all fairness, are they really fans of the comic itself...? WIll they be buying copies? Maybe this sounds like a stupid point to some people, but it makes the most sense to me. I mean, when you think about it, they aren't coming to the forum to make posts or to help the community. They aren't here to make the Angel comic cover variants as good as the can be...they aren't voting for THE BEST. THEY ARE VOTING FOR YOU!
That's what it comes down to, IMO.
I honestly think, if there was some way to do so, to make the voting a private thing. It may not seem like that big of an issue, but the public voting seems like it could be causing some issues of it's own. (*random thought*)
That is all.
I hope most of that made sense. It's like 3:30 am...I'm tired, and it's hard for me to think with a clear mind right now. k.thnx.bye.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Dec 3, 2007 6:08:57 GMT -5
TST Kevin wants us all to read this, the resolution to this month's issues: I have read all of the comments on the board about this. I am very sorry that this has happened. While, I am very unhappy that anyone would act in an intentional manner to rig the voting, I feel I must take full responsibility for this mishap, as I perhaps should have spelled out much more detailed rules about this sort of thing (multiple votes per household, etc.). I did consider this at the planning stages, but really felt it would not be an issue as I believed that the voting process would involve hundreds of voters (all subscribers, plus all forum members, plus many newbies). In that scenario, a few extra votes per household would not have a changing effect on the outcome. In many other real world elections, there are votes cast based on friendships and such, and there really is no true way to fairly and truly control that. I had hoped that the overall volume of votes with even things out. Unfortunately the voting process has not become a true cross section of fan votes, but rather a small dedicated group and this multiple voting issue has a greater effect on the outcome.
After careful thought, I am allowing all past winning entries so far to stand. The covers are all very good and were chosen by IDW as good concepts to use. Remember the popular vote for issue no. 2 was not chosen, as it was not deemed appropriate for the cover. That's one reason why we submit the top three. So even if there is some vote skewing, ultimately the best cover is chosen. The voting helps us and IDW narrow down what the fans like and think is cool. I believe the real problem with the process is lack of participation. We have many many more subscribers to this series than are voting. I would think everyone who is subscribing would at least vote, plus other non-subscribers too. I will work on getting more info out and getting more to participate in both submissions and votes. Also, I believe the ad will help with that too.
As for the current votes for issue #4, I will consider all entries that had more than one vote. That way we will be sure to consider even the ones that would have been highly voted if any one other entry was pulled from the running. So up for consideration will be 9771, 9552, 9615, 9797, 9783 and 9234.
Beginning with no. 5 cover, I will update the rules to mention how we handle multiple votes from same household, etc.. Remember this is supposed to be fun...a fan participation event to bring us all together and at the same time create some cool comics and something extra special for the true fans. Lets not let greed get in the way of our project, there's something here for everybody, as even if your cover is not chosen, you still helped create the cover by simply participating in the discussions and voting. The whole SlayAlive community has something really cool to be proud of. Sincerely, Kevin Kriess TST / BCCI am glad that this is resolved and the coming month's should see no more problems Also, I wanted to mention that ALL members of SlayAlive are encouraged to cast your vote. No discussion is needed, but is also welcome. Just because you aren't a subscriber doesn't mean you cannot decide which concept wins! You can help bring some cool art to the verse. Plus, it would only take about 5 minutes of your time.
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