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Post by wenxina on Nov 27, 2008 12:23:54 GMT -5
And I think that was the point of the arc... This arc was kind of the launching pad for the action to begin... it's like the midseason episode in the mode of "Checkpoint" and "Bring on the Night". We learn that Glory was a god in the former, and in the latter, a glimpse of things to come. On a metatextual level, it all makes sense. S8 was pretty much a device to reconcile Fray's continuity with Buffy's... and what we got is confirmation that Fray's future will come to pass. Buffy did not undo it, and as of now, it's the inevitable future; we will reenter the age of a single Slayer again. I'm not sure if the arc was meant to provide all the answers that we've been craving for a while now, and I think that many of us thought that since Joss was writing a crossover, we would learn so much more. After the 3rd act, I kinda figured we wouldn't... that's for the rest of the season to tell.
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BennyTheKey
Ensouled Vampire
The one and only, Benny[Mo0:4]
Posts: 1,023
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Post by BennyTheKey on Nov 27, 2008 12:41:32 GMT -5
I think we're still missing something here. The first thing that struck me as odd was when Buffy broke Fray's scythe. It was kinda quickly shown, but why was it shown? Why break Fray's scythe? I don't think it was meant as a symbolic gesture at all. Which brings me back to Willow's "so close..." What was she waiting for? Why was she pitting Fray against Buffy to begin with? Maybe she needed one of the scythes to get destroyed? Maybe only a slayer herself is strong enough to physically break a scythe? Maybe only a full slayer (with the power and the mystical memories) can destroy a scythe, making it impossible for Mel to do it. Is the scythe somehow related to Willow's dark status or the absence of magic in the future? OMG....GUYS...I just realized, when Buffy gets back to New York....she does NOT have the scythe.Did destroying the scythe in the future lead to Buffy never having found it in the past? Does this mean Buffy is back to being the lone slayer??? NO SCYTHE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Which would essentially mean that Willow's plan was to 1. die and 2. get rid of the scythe so she never did the spell and therefore there was no more slayers. Fray isn't a Slayer anymore in that last panel, I think. OOOH ! SO that was FDW plan?! I think there will be more Fray to come in another spin off although I dont see how if she isnt a slayer no more.. And that was Riley right? so Twilight isnt Riley..Im gonna go with him being Angel now. However I dont think the betrayer is Riley, I think hes pretending to take orders, I think the real betrayer is Twilight. Edit ~ I think it was Riley who helped the other Slayers know about Twilights rocket... Overall I really Loved this issue !
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Post by magicegidius on Nov 27, 2008 12:57:44 GMT -5
Or Riley is controlling Twilight because Twilight is a flying robot...
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kershmuckit
Potential Slayer
The sound you get when you play golf with pudding
Posts: 135
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Post by kershmuckit on Nov 27, 2008 13:31:50 GMT -5
Hey guys.
Just coming out of the woodwork with a theory why it was willow had to have buffy kill her.
I mean its obvious thats what she wanted, the dialog between them confirmed that, buffy saying all this was created just so we ended up like this, why does it have to be me?
Well my theory is that willow is working some kind of mojo, you can tell she is when you watch her infront of the portal, and she needed to be killed not by buffy but by the scythe, that huge crack of energy in the sky, i think its significant. She's either worked some kind of mojo to do with the scythe or maybe she's even done something to the scythe that buffy is gonna need in the future or such.
Just my theory =)
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Post by faithswatcher on Nov 27, 2008 14:49:14 GMT -5
After reading your comments im going to go back and re read, but thought, what if the scythe needed to be destroyed for Willow to be destroyed. Willow does have a huge connection with it, its basically the item that started her on this uber witch phase. Also, severely dissapointed by this issue, the only big reveal was basically Riley, and it was ruined for me, the first person to post regarding the new issue didnt state spoilers, and it wasnt even out over here in the UK at that point Im very excited for after these messages though, and will be making damn sure it is not ruined for me. haha.
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Post by faithswatcher on Nov 27, 2008 14:53:24 GMT -5
Oh and i forgot to mention, now that Riley as twilight is off the table, people have mentioned others again, including Giles, in my Buffy mafia which i just hosted, I made Giles Twilight, the story i wrote was that Frays bleak world was made like this due to a war against the slayer army, a mystical magical fought war which pretty much destroyed new york/USA/the world? Giles/Twilight was working to de power the slayers in order to stop the war that destroys everything, and in Giles/Twilights own words "Take out the soldiers and the war ceases to exist" just thought i would share... xxFWxx P.s, Lady G was the last person standing too haha.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Nov 27, 2008 15:04:48 GMT -5
For everyone who has said this issue did not bring Season Eight and Fray into continuity with each other may be looking for a perspicuous statement on the nature of these timelines, I believe that the final page with Erin saying pretty much that they're still there, so everything is good and safe coupled with FDW's ominous statement of "What happens in your time, will cause your time to come" in issue 17 could not be more clear, without being too clear. I think with stories like this, there needs to be room left for a little ambiguity. It doesn't benefit the story to spell everything out explicitly. Except that the fact that "Fray" is canon already tells us that it's going to happen, unless a story is told that specifically undoes it. So an arc where the main point at the end is, "Yep, they're still here," was kinda redundant. I was looking for more specifics on how Buffy's time leads into Mel's, and we didn't get that. Yet. Hopefully that's still to come as the season moves along. And I think that was the point of the arc... This arc was kind of the launching pad for the action to begin... it's like the midseason episode in the mode of "Checkpoint" and "Bring on the Night". We learn that Glory was a god in the former, and in the latter, a glimpse of things to come. That's a really good analogy. The problem with it is that neither of those eps were particularly great (BotN actually gets my pick for the worst ep of the entire 144), and I found this arc to be similarly unspectacular. Looking back over the four issues now, it feels like there's an Act missing. The Act that shows Buffy accomplishing something good during her time in the future. Because they way it played out, all she had the chance to do was fight Mel (one of the good guys) twice, and kill Willow (evil-ish or not, also one of the good guys). I think we needed to see Buffy team up with Mel, destroy Harth's army of lurks, and put an end to his latest evil scheme. Then EFW confronts Mel, shows her a vision, Mel and Erin set Buffy up, etc., and everything unfolds from there the way it actually happened. Buffy's the hero, and you want to see her being heroic and beating the bad guys. She didn't get the chance to do that in this arc. (And if you're going to ask me where they would've found time to fit that in there, well, I won't suggest that it should've been a five-issue arc, because I don't even wanna think about how long Part 5 would've been delayed. But the very-mediocre Xander/Dawn "B" story could've been dropped entirely, and there was a lot of fat in #16 that could've been trimmed down a bit...)
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Post by Emmie on Nov 27, 2008 15:15:22 GMT -5
Basically, I was left with a great big floating question-mark in front of my face, wondering what this particular little story was all about. Hope it becomes clearer as we move forward. I felt like we got a huge answer in this issue. Fray's world *doesn't* disappear. The rest of Season 8 is going to tell us how this unfolds - I don't think we could have ever expected this arc to tell us everything. That's what Season 8, the entire season, is for. To show us the consequences of Chosen and to reconcile it with Fray's future. One piece of the puzzle has been revealed - Fray's future won't be snuffed out. And that's huge. Everyone was speculating on whether Fray would still exist and now we know that she does. Fray being canon wasn't much of a reassurance when Joss is known to retcon that canon with whatever piece he's currently writing. I never felt comfortable saying that Fray's future was safe because the comics were canon and there were many other people who shared that uncertainty, as I recall.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Nov 27, 2008 15:34:08 GMT -5
Fray being canon wasn't much of a reassurance when Joss is known to retcon that canon with whatever piece he's currently writing. I never felt comfortable saying that Fray's future was safe because the comics were canon and there were many other people who shared that uncertainty, as I recall. See, that's where I disagree. Yes, Joss has retconned canon before, but until that retcon actually happens, then canon is still canon and the world of "Fray" still comes to pass. I don't feel like we needed an entire arc just to confirm that. :unsure:
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Post by Emmie on Nov 27, 2008 15:41:48 GMT -5
Well, when you take into account Joss saying at Paley that he wouldn't lose much sleep if he had to toss out Season 8 for a Buffy movie...I just don't take canon as automatically assured.
Because one of the possibilities was that Fray canon would be changed. It was a possibility when Joss said that Season 8 was going to reconcile the differences between the two worlds. One way to do this would be to change the future - it was a big enough worry for Fray (the character) and it was a big worry for us fans. The tension surrounding this was both textual and meta-textual.
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Whedon Fan
Ensouled Vampire
Joss Is Boss
Banner & Avatar Made By CBG[Mo0:3][Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Whedon Fan on Nov 27, 2008 17:09:43 GMT -5
My vote has been since issue 9 thst Twilight is Ethan Rayne. I remember when I got the TPB's I re-read them all and it just clicked. Now with the one of above posts by "watcher" this supports my theory even more. Anyway this isn't a Twilight thread sooooo: I love this issue it was worth the wait. The issue just went by to quick weren't we said to be getting more pages in this? Did we, I haven't counted? Molines art finally hit the high mark, he took his time but he got there eventually. I love Gunther, I can now say that he is my second fav charatcer in Fray. He has a wicked side that just comes out when he's being threatend and it sure as hell showed in Time Of Your life (see issue 3 and 4). Harth ran off again, total coward as most bad guys are except Angelus. I missed Xanders jokes. One of the main things I did miss when the show finished was the humour."You wanna nuzzle his root system" Go Rowena she has spine. Shame it took Renee to die and Satsu to go to Japan to let her show it. "F#*k em up"! The last few pages between Fary and Buffy were genius, the words exchanged could only come from Joss's writing. "Fate of the world made sense, when there was only one" The art and Buffy's dialogue boxes in the last few pages made this issue for me. I don't know what to think Of Riley. I hope he isn't a bad guy, the first thing I thought when I saw him was "Oh God...wait Riley's a good guy, always has been and always will be thats the point of his charatcer. So I hope he is still pulling for the Initative and is under cover. BUFFY SMASHED THE SCYTHE! Over all a very good issue. We finally have an end to this arc and I'm looking forward to issue 20. My only complaint is that I felt it wrapped up to quickly with: Evil Willow, Will Buffy get back to back to her time? What about Fray? Wheres Harth and then BAM!! Attack, stab Dark-ish Willow, Buffy goes back to the present time and done. "Means it's a good day" Time Of Your Life: 8/10 No Future For You still holds first place in season 8 for me.
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Nov 27, 2008 19:00:43 GMT -5
I think the ending to this arc still wasn't as strong as the ending panels in Wolves at the Gate. With the voiceover and showing a different panel for each character. That was really well done and left me feeling with some sort of emotion. This didn't. I love Fray and everything...I just didn't like the ending.
It also sorta pissed me off that the BVS sign wasn't at the end in red with a black background like the other three arcs.
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vipertm
Innocent Bystander
We only see in others what we see in ourselves[Mo0:2]
Posts: 11
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Post by vipertm on Nov 27, 2008 21:19:36 GMT -5
Best moment of the issue:
Buffy: Erin! Listen to me!
WOK
Buffy: That's for "Puffy"
I really felt bad for FDW by the end of it. Her eyes turned back to thier natural colour after Buffy stabbed her =[
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Post by buffyverseforever on Nov 27, 2008 22:41:53 GMT -5
I can't get the spoilers to work right for some reason so-Spoiler Space for Discussion of Buffy Season 8 Issue # 19 - - - - - - - - - - I don't understand why everybody's assuming that the future's set in stone after the events of this issue. This is only the midpoint of the story-it's fairly obvious that Buffy's going to fight to make sure that this future doesn't come to pass and Fray's world will become an alternate timeline-one that still exists in its own universe,as we saw in the ending but one that is not directly connected to her timeline (like the Mirror Universe in Star Trek). I don't see Buffy not fighting to keep Willow from winding up like that-in fact, I suspect that's why FDW brought Buffy to the future-so there'd be at least one timeline where things worked out better. Right now,we're at the midpoint where things look bad for Buffy- Glory has beaten the crap out of her repeatedly or,in this case,it looks like everything Buffy has accomplished will amount to nothing and her closest friend will die miserable and alone. Now we see how Buffy beats the odds as only she can. I don't see Joss undoing the multiple Slayers-the message of empowerment that they send is too important to him (and I certainly hope he doesn't). Remember, we still don't know the truth about the battle that ended the Age of Magic-it's entirely possible that it ended one way in Fray's universe (with Twilight triumphant?) and will end another in ours (with Buffy clobbering Twilight?)
Best wishes,
Scott
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Post by snizapman6294 on Nov 28, 2008 0:44:11 GMT -5
I'm leaning toward Giles possibly being Twilight. The re-mentioning of his old tattoo (why bring that up?) and the fact that he would do anything to make the world a safer place has me leaning toward him being the big bad. On the other hand I don't really see him wanting to eliminate all the slayers unless he has gone to a much darker place. that makes a hell of a lot more sense than most of the stuff people are talking about... but when he... she... it...? (TWILIGHT) said young love, and the advertisement covered the next page... i was convinced that twilight was riley cuz "Ah, young love" seems like a riley quote to me... but it could be that Giles is pissed that buffy created all of this and didn't need his help or to reconstitute the Council. it could definately be that the first comic season takes the show's villain back to the premise - strong women (buffy, willow, Cordelia in a way), misogynistic (Warren) and or whimpy (xander, giles) men, and vampires (Spike, Angel, Darla, etc.)
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darthrosenberg9
Potential Slayer
"You haven?t seen my drawer of inappropriate starches?"[Mo0:37]
Posts: 107
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Post by darthrosenberg9 on Nov 28, 2008 1:11:55 GMT -5
I recently re-read Fray, and looking at some of the artwork of the scythe got me thinking.
There are actually some very noticeable differences between Buffy's scythe and Fray's scythe. The most obvious one is color. Buffy's is multi-toned (silver, red, black, and many browns), as well as made of many materials (metal, wood, (ostrich? skin) wrapping). Re-reading Fray, I noticed that Fray's scythe frequently looked like it WAS made of wood (obviously with the blade attached). It often appeared to be a wooden stake/pike with two or three (it was somewhat inconsistent) metal plates on the sides and a blade on top. The blade is even cut differently.
So, here's something I've been thinking about: is Fray's scythe actually the same scythe Buffy finds in the vineyard? Is Fray's even forged by the Guardians? I mean, think about it: Fray's scythe can be karate-chopped to pieces? Now, I know, "test of time" and all that...which is why this isn't a fully developed theory. BUT....how would Urkonn get ahold of the real scythe? Why wouldn't Joss have tried to be more consistent with the designs of the two scythes? (I mean--unless years of bloodshed can turn all that silver into red...) And, does Buffy have to worry? If any old slayer can break the scythe, and there are now thousands...is it really as indestructible or as handy as she thought?
I don't know. I haven't had a chance to pick this issue up yet---so I NEVER should have read any of these posts (let alone ALL of them). Maybe I'll feel completely differently after I see the image myself tomorrow.
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Post by wenxina on Nov 28, 2008 1:18:02 GMT -5
The Scythe design was changed. In ToYL (all four books), there are multiple panels showing both Slayers holding their respective Scythes, and they are identical. It's the same in the incentive posters, which you can check for yourself in the appropriate thread. But I agree with your description of the differences in design. I made a checklist of all the different aspects when I first noticed that they were different. Why the design changed, I don't think was ever answered.
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darthrosenberg9
Potential Slayer
"You haven?t seen my drawer of inappropriate starches?"[Mo0:37]
Posts: 107
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Post by darthrosenberg9 on Nov 28, 2008 1:27:26 GMT -5
Oh. Duh. I completely forgot about that. Thanks.
One other thing I did mean to mention, though: Spike is seen in After the Fall in (presumably) Haddyn carrying a weapon very similar to the scythe. What does everyone think about that? Before, I took it to lend support to my "Melaka's is fake" theory.....but I forgot about the retconned design.
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Smashed
Junior Vampire Slayer
[Mo0:3]
Posts: 908
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Post by Smashed on Nov 28, 2008 1:37:00 GMT -5
Oh. Duh. I completely forgot about that. Thanks. One other thing I did mean to mention, though: Spike is seen in After the Fall in (presumably) Haddyn carrying a weapon very similar to the scythe. What does everyone think about that? Before, I took it to lend support to my "Melaka's is fake" theory.....but I forgot about the retconned design. Actually, Brian confirmed that the axe in After The Fall is not the infamous Slayer's Scythe.
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Post by wenxina on Nov 28, 2008 9:16:39 GMT -5
Oh. Duh. I completely forgot about that. Thanks. One other thing I did mean to mention, though: Spike is seen in After the Fall in (presumably) Haddyn carrying a weapon very similar to the scythe. What does everyone think about that? Before, I took it to lend support to my "Melaka's is fake" theory.....but I forgot about the retconned design. Actually, Brian confirmed that the axe in After The Fall is not the infamous Slayer's Scythe. Also, since it was most likely a temporal slip (and not a spatial one), Spike was most likely just projected centuries into the future. Meaning, still LA, or Bel Air, or wherever he was at that time. If flying cars are the norm in the future, it's most likely not only a thing to be seen in Haddyn. California's got plenty of drivers.
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