the Deeper Well

[Malsad]

Since Drogyn's dead whats stoping anyone that is any kind of threat to get in there and take a few of them out and raise them.

and who should replace Drogyn ( I say Groo)

[Wyndam]

I'd imagine that Drogyn has already been replaced. His job was too important to not have some sort of contingency/replacement plan in case he was killed.

[Skytteflickan88]

My memory is fuzzy. Where did it say that Drogyn's death locked the deeper well?

[Wyndam]

Oct 1, 2008 13:44:03 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

My memory is fuzzy. Where did it say that Drogyn's death locked the deeper well?

As far as I know, that was never said.

[Malsad]

did i say that it locked up?

[KingofCretins]

The Well is presumably unguarded -- we have no mythology to suggest that the Battlebrand is either A) a lineage like the Slayer, or B) even tied to the Well at all.

The real answer to who should guard it is the man responsible for the vacancy -- Angel. We've already seen this with him.

"I killed an innocent being. He was a soldier like me. Whatever his mission is it's mine now."

"Oh, I know. It's - not really my choice, either. Kamal's mission is mine now."

Angel 2.01 "Judgment"

He was talking about Kamal, the Prio Motu demon protecting the pregnant woman. Angel killed Kamal. Angel is solely and directly responsible for Drogyn's death, including killing him. Whatever Drogyn's mission was, it's his now. Unless the character has lost a great deal of the honor he had in Season 2.

[Skytteflickan88]

You said that no one that's a threat could get in there. What's the diff?

[Malsad]

i said any one that s a threat

[Skytteflickan88]

Oh. I read it as "Since Drogyn's death is stoping anyone".

My bad, I didn't get that it was two questions.

[Emmie]

Oct 1, 2008 14:50:24 GMT -5 KingofCretins said:

The Well is presumably unguarded -- we have no mythology to suggest that the Battlebrand is either A) a lineage like the Slayer, or B) even tied to the Well at all.

The real answer to who should guard it is the man responsible for the vacancy -- Angel. We've already seen this with him.

"I killed an innocent being. He was a soldier like me. Whatever his mission is it's mine now."

"Oh, I know. It's - not really my choice, either. Kamal's mission is mine now."

Angel 2.01 "Judgment"

He was talking about Kamal, the Prio Motu demon protecting the pregnant woman. Angel killed Kamal. Angel is solely and directly responsible for Drogyn's death, including killing him. Whatever Drogyn's mission was, it's his now. Unless the character has lost a great deal of the honor he had in Season 2.

Except being the guardian of the Deeper Well requires more than just being a warrior like Kamal in Judgment. I see Drogyn as being chosen for that position because of his honor ("cannot tell a lie") as well as his talents as a warrior. With both prerequisites in mind, Angel would be the last person acceptable as the guardian of the Deeper Well because he murdered Drogyn dishonorably. Also, Drogyn seems to have been chosen for this position the way Kamal was chosen to be the woman's protector in Judgment. Angel had to step in because there was no time to call another warrior - he was the only suitable candidate at the time. In the Deeper Well, there would be time to call in another guardian.

Considering the paramount importance of the Deeper Well in keeping the Old Ones in their grave, does it seem logical for the next guardian to be the one who murdered the former guardian dishonorably?

I doubt even the Powers that Be would want Angel being in charge of the Deeper Well considering his tendency to go evil every now and then - sometimes while still ensouled. Ironically, he also has displayed some very bad judgment (Judgment 2.01) in his mission over the years. He's simply too volatile a character to be entrusted with the guardianship of the Deeper Well - a duty which requires a constancy Angel lacks.

[Malsad]

good point

[wenxina]

Oct 1, 2008 15:55:14 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Except being the guardian of the Deeper Well requires more than just being a warrior like Kamal in Judgment. I see Drogyn as being chosen for that position because of his honor ("cannot tell a lie") as well as his talents as a warrior. With both prerequisites in mind, Angel would be the last person acceptable as the guardian of the Deeper Well because he murdered Drogyn dishonorably. Also, Drogyn seems to have been chosen for this position the way Kamal was chosen to be the woman's protector in Judgment. Angel had to step in because there was no time to call another warrior - he was the only suitable candidate at the time. In the Deeper Well, there would be time to call in another guardian.

Considering the paramount importance of the Deeper Well in keeping the Old Ones in their grave, does it seem logical for the next guardian to be the one who murdered the former guardian dishonorably?

I doubt even the Powers that Be would want Angel being in charge of the Deeper Well considering his tendency to go evil every now and then - sometimes while still ensouled. Ironically, he also has displayed some very bad judgment (Judgment 2.01) in his mission over the years. He's simply too volatile a character to be entrusted with the guardianship of the Deeper Well - a duty which requires a constancy Angel lacks.

So... Groo then? Since he's all honorable, and dumb as a doorknob for the most part. What better guardian than one that doesn't question the existence of such a place? I'm not being snide here, I mean it. If the Deeper Well is pretty much a mausoleum for all the Old Ones, and I'm guessing that Illyria's not the only one able to infect a host with its essence, shouldn't the entire place be razed?

[Emmie]

But can those sarcophagi even be destroyed? If they could raze the Deeper Well, I feel like it would have happened because if it occurred to you, it likely would have occurred to the enemies of the Old Ones in the past. It sounds like you're reading the Deeper Well as something that is kept around by choice. I see the Deeper Well and the sarcophagi of Old Ones as something that cannot be destroyed, only contained. Essentially, the guardian plays "damage control".

Actually, Groo wouldn't be a bad choice as Guardian. Though I'd wish he were a bit more quick on the uptake. Groo is certainly more innocent to the dark ways of the world than Drogyn; a lack of experience that might hinder his ability to protect the Deeper Well. But he certainly meets the requirements of honorable and constant - ever loyal and ever good.

[wenxina]

Oct 1, 2008 19:25:50 GMT -5 Emmie said:

But can those sarcophagi even be destroyed? If they could raze the Deeper Well, I feel like it would have happened because if it occurred to you, it likely would have occurred to the enemies of the Old Ones in the past. It sounds like you're reading the Deeper Well as something that is kept around by choice. I see the Deeper Well and the sarcophagi of Old Ones as something that cannot be destroyed, only contained. Essentially, the guardian plays "damage control".

True, I am operating on that assumption. And the reason for the assumption is that the Buffyverse has not shown me any clear cut evidence of immutability, indestructibility, or immortality. There are always caveats. Vampires can live forever, as long as they steer clear of sharp wooden objects to the heart, fire, sunlight, Slayers, etc. Illyria can possibly be destroyed. She (using the female pronoun for now) can at least be beaten into a bloody pulp. Granted, this only after her power loss. But then again, we have Jasmine, arguably as primordial as Illyria, and she could be destroyed. Glory, a hell-god, who knows how ancient, and she could also be killed.
Maybe the sarcophagi can't be destroyed, even if the contents can... or maybe they're kept around because someone doesn't want them destroyed. *shrugs*
Maybe you're right, that the Deeper Well is kinda like an Alcatraz of sorts.

[Emmie]

Yet both Glory and Jasmine were in forms dissimilar to what they possessed when in their "god" forms. Could Glory be killed in her true form? Or what about Jasmine when she was immutable as a higher being?

The Buffyverse has shown us that most things can be killed, but you have to catch them in their vulnerable state. Perhaps the Old Ones in their sarcophagi simply aren't vulnerable enough to destroy completely.

[magicegidius]

If they put Illyria in charge, they can have their own party every saturday evening

[jessesopher]

Do you guys think that Illyria will eventually be sent back to the Deeper Well? I do. Because you just can't have this giant, all-powerful demon running around...

[wenxina]

Well, there's that, or she could move on to another dimension, like many others before her did. Or be banished along with the rest of magic whenever that happens.

Emmie: The very fact that both Glory and Jasmine could be killed, as in their essence somehow destroyed, probably means that they could be killed. True, a little luck in catching them in their vulnerable state may help; probably a little more work would have to be thrown in if they were in their original form, but essentially, quite killable. Plus, in the case of Glory, I think that was probably her "true" form, or as close as she could get to it. For one, it's totally different from the host's body (i.e. Ben). For another, Glory was a narcissistic bitca... so she probably chose to wear that beautiful exterior, even if it was probably a glamor. Also, unlike Illyria and Jasmine, Glory was able to instantly heal herself. Jasmine either had to suck the essence of other people, or just wait out the damage. Illyria's "shell" usually protects her from most damage, but when she was pounded to a pulp (again, after being somewhat neutralized), she had to wait out the damage. She healed fast, but it wasn't instant. And so, Glory wasn't playing on ground that foreign. I agree that Buffy probably couldn't have taken out Glory, so Giles offing Ben did the trick. But my point is that even a god can die, if you do it right.

But I totally see your point that perhaps the sarcophagi of the Old Ones are essentially indestructible.

[KingofCretins]

Oct 1, 2008 15:55:14 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Except being the guardian of the Deeper Well requires more than just being a warrior like Kamal in Judgment. I see Drogyn as being chosen for that position because of his honor ("cannot tell a lie") as well as his talents as a warrior. With both prerequisites in mind, Angel would be the last person acceptable as the guardian of the Deeper Well because he murdered Drogyn dishonorably. Also, Drogyn seems to have been chosen for this position the way Kamal was chosen to be the woman's protector in Judgment. Angel had to step in because there was no time to call another warrior - he was the only suitable candidate at the time. In the Deeper Well, there would be time to call in another guardian.

This all presupposes, without any supporting evidence in the text, that Drogyn's particularly gifts were essential to his role at the Well. Why assume that, other than to get Angel off the hook?

We don't even know if there's anybody else watching out for the Well to call anyone else in. There's no evidence that this is a lineage of chosen like the Slayer line.

Without any mythological basis to argue against this being Angel's responsibility, we can only rely on what we know of his character. His character says it's now his job, or the character has been changed.

Considering the paramount importance of the Deeper Well in keeping the Old Ones in their grave, does it seem logical for the next guardian to be the one who murdered the former guardian dishonorably?

I doubt even the Powers that Be would want Angel being in charge of the Deeper Well considering his tendency to go evil every now and then - sometimes while still ensouled. Ironically, he also has displayed some very bad judgment (Judgment 2.01) in his mission over the years. He's simply too volatile a character to be entrusted with the guardianship of the Deeper Well - a duty which requires a constancy Angel lacks.

Again, where is all this mythology around the Well coming from? Apart from that it's old and important, we don't know if the Powers oversee it or have any role in selecting its guardian. We don't know that the "honor" of the person guarding it is important to the job.

Drogyn, for his part, claims to have been the keeper of the Well "for decades" -- only for decades, apparently, since we know him to have been at least 1000 years old. What we know of him personally is just what Wes said -- "Gunn, this is Drogyn, the battlebrand, given eternal youth a thousand years ago. Demonbane, truthsayer... "

If his particular degree of honor was essential to being the Guardian of the Well, then the Well has had hundreds of years worth of guys like Drogyn if he's only been on the job for decades. Sounds very much like it *is* a job, a mission he took on, just as Kamal took on being the Pregnant Woman's champion.

[Malsad]

didnt Drogyn say that he was only guaring the well for a (few?) hundred years