Jordan
Innocent Bystander
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Post by Jordan on Nov 14, 2010 3:43:17 GMT -5
Sorry if this is kind of off-topic, but I was curious: what does everyone think about the canon status of these later IDW Angel comics? When the whole Twilight reveal went down Scott Allie told us IDW's titles would "jibe" with Season Eight, and later we learned that a certain degree of coordination was happening between the publishers, with the final Angel arc and the Spike miniseries being tweaked to line up overtly with S8.
Does that make them canon? Pseudo-canon? Vulcan cannon?
I'm of the opinion that these connections are going to be more 'convenience'-driven, in the sense that while those elements themselves may tie into and "jibe" with S8, their presence doesn't render the stories they're contained in canon, but rather make it more believable that these characters' stories end in this non-canon continuity, and serve as a convenient jumping-off point for readers to see these characters again in the true, Dark Horse-published canon. So while Angel may get zapped out of whatever he's doing in the final 'Angel' story arc, and Spike may board a ship with a bug crew in his miniseries, the events leading up to those points aren't really official.
Or are they...? Because I think I remember Lynch saying something about his series being canon. Then where does that leave the Angel arc? Because in that CBR interview the writers seemed kind of like, "yeah, we're going to make it kinda sorta connect to S8, but we're not going to worry about it that much."
Blah! This is another reason I'm glad the rights are going back to Dark Horse. It'll be great to not have to puzzle over this stuff.
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Post by thevampirewithsoul on Nov 14, 2010 4:05:47 GMT -5
I think that the fans care more about canon then Joss does.
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Shane
Potential Slayer
I saw a baby today.[Mo0:0]
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Post by Shane on Nov 14, 2010 7:21:31 GMT -5
I think most people here are considering it fully canon at this point. Personally, I'm considering parts related to Buffy Season 8 as canon and withholding judgement on the rest until Joss gives us his opinion and more info on his involvement. Maybe he'll say something once they get the license back.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Nov 14, 2010 8:53:43 GMT -5
After the Fall issues 1-17 are definitely canon. You could also regard the issue 23 epilogue as canon, since it's part of the same story Brian and Joss plotted together. Joss had nothing to do with any of the "Angel" series issues after that, so they can't be considered part of the Whedon canon.
The current "Spike" series can be considered canon because it was coordinated with Joss to fit in with season 8, and has directly signed off on at least parts of it.
You could also call "Spike: After the Fall" canon because it was part of the same overall story as Angel: AtF. And "Spike: Asylum" is so heavily and specifically referenced in canon that it might as well be considered canon itself.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Nov 14, 2010 10:12:15 GMT -5
I think that the fans care more about canon then Joss does. No Joss does care about canon, I think he's just too diplomatic to come out and brand other writer's stories non-canon. He shows he cares in this interview: He's also made this comment:
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Post by thevampirewithsoul on Nov 14, 2010 14:34:18 GMT -5
I'm not saying that Joss doesn't care about canon, but he said in the past that if he ever gets the chance to make a Buffyverse movie, that he'd be willing to ignore the comics. That tells me that he doesn't take canon as seriously as some people think he does.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Nov 14, 2010 16:51:44 GMT -5
I'm not saying that Joss doesn't care about canon, but he said in the past that if he ever gets the chance to make a Buffyverse movie, that he'd be willing to ignore the comics. That tells me that he doesn't take canon as seriously as some people think he does. He also said he never would have done season 8 as a comic book if he thought there was the slightest chance of ever doing a movie with the original cast. Season 8 is what he decided to do instead of doing that. I'm very sure that with all the work he and others have put into it, and with all the money season 8 has made for him and Fox and Dark Horse, he wouldn't just casually throw it all away.
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Post by Emmie on Nov 17, 2010 23:03:50 GMT -5
I think that the fans care more about canon then Joss does. No Joss does care about canon, I think he's just too diplomatic to come out and brand other writer's stories non-canon. This is it exactly. It'd be very easy for Joss to say the Angel books are canon. He'd... say it. The same way he said that Season 8 was canon. Here's the thing. I don't believe the current Angel books are canon because I think Joss likes to be directly managing the story. He's not going to go read the IDW books to which he didn't contribute and then jettison his own story ideas to include theirs. His world, his ideas, his story. And clearly a number of Angel fans would disagree with that (*waves at Pat*), but I'd like to think everyone can understand how the creator of the 'verse has the right to direct the story and also disregard what story extensions he wasn't a part of. I consider After the Fall a blurry watercolor outline of canon. Lynch went way off the ranch in writing it, I suspect. The whole three-issue break for First Night was a structural nightmare that went against Whedon's encouraged in media res storytelling style. I remember reading (from Lynch himself, I think) how Whedon wanted the story to begin a few months after NFA and Lynch wanted to tell the First Night stories. If Whedon were all that closely involved, I don't think First Night would've happened--which is a shame because then the fantastic cliffhanger for #5 wouldn't have been sucked dry of all its dramatic power till I didn't really care anymore who won the fight. I get the feeling that storytelling choice was anti-Whedon because it's the very same thing people have been asking he do in Season 8 and he's refused to break in media res. I don't consider #23 canon. Nor do I consider the Drusilla two-parter canon. Whedon shared ideas and coplotted and gave notes on Issue 1 (IIRC)--that's all After the Fall #1-17. That's it for me. I think you only need look at the covers to see where Whedon was involved. After the Fall #1-17 have Whedon's name on them. Nada after #17. I can understand why people wanna consider stories they like canon. But I think it's pretty clear that the IDW stories aren't lining up all that great with DH's. Think about the seamless continuity of "Fool For Love"/"Darla" and then ask yourself if these two comics lines measure up. I think you'll find the answer pretty clear. What's going to be interesting is a year or two from now when the DH Angel title starts up.
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Shane
Potential Slayer
I saw a baby today.[Mo0:0]
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Post by Shane on Nov 19, 2010 4:11:21 GMT -5
No Joss does care about canon, I think he's just too diplomatic to come out and brand other writer's stories non-canon. This is it exactly. It'd be very easy for Joss to say the Angel books are canon. He'd... say it. The same way he said that Season 8 was canon. Except that if Joss says any particular IDW book is canon now he'd be implying the others aren't. And given recent developments it's not likely we'd get a definitive answer anytime soon. I wish the whole process was more transparent. That would at least help my approach to the IDW books I haven't read yet.
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BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by BlueJay on Nov 19, 2010 19:56:32 GMT -5
Just read 'em for crap's sake. That's all I gotta say.
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Post by angeliclestat on Nov 20, 2010 8:00:10 GMT -5
Joss is never gonna tell the story how Angel went from #17 of AtF to how he got to Twilight. So if you like Angel just read the IDW comics...if you don't wanna read em then that's cool too.
People take this wayyyy too seriously. I'm echoing BluJay if you wanna read 'em just read 'em for crap's sake. Life's too short to be worrying about this kinda stuff.
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Shane
Potential Slayer
I saw a baby today.[Mo0:0]
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Post by Shane on Nov 20, 2010 17:30:43 GMT -5
I like Angel more now than I did before the Twilight reveal. And I'm a fan of Joss's disjointed storytelling. So if Joss wants to tell it without those parts and make me speculate about what could/would have happened to him (and others) in that time, I'm happy to do it. It allows for the possibility that he thinks a definite answer would detract from the rest of the story. But, IRL, I have lots of other things to do so when I need to make time, the comic books I can afford to not read right away are one of the first things to go. And there's a chance the canonicity will be clearer and if these stories will turn out to be consequential as time goes on so I can have a more informed take on them if I just read them then. I've enjoyed a lot of IDW comics I consider non-canon but if the stories aren't going to be built upon, I'm more likely to drop those than even the ones I consider poorly executed canonical ones. Because Buffyverse comics are going to be around for quite long. As for the age thing - people will risk it if they think the potential reward's worth the risk. For me, a lot of IDW's books haven't been but some current ones are and I'll be reading those. Hope that clears things up somewhat. So I think I have valid reasons for doing things this way. Maybe I'm wrong. But hey, I'm in university. It's experimental times.
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Post by Emmie on Nov 20, 2010 19:13:54 GMT -5
Joss is never gonna tell the story how Angel went from #17 of AtF to how he got to Twilight. So if you like Angel just read the IDW comics...if you don't wanna read em then that's cool too. People take this wayyyy too seriously. I'm echoing BluJay if you wanna read 'em just read 'em for crap's sake. Life's too short to be worrying about this kinda stuff. Hello, this is a forum where we talk about all aspects of this 'verse, including canon. People care about canon and continuity, that should be obvious, and it's not your place to tell people what matters to them. Canon =/= quality. And frankly, I think IDW's best works are the non-canon books by John Byrne. One of the reasons we discuss canon is because of the questionable nature of continuity between two rival publishing houses. If you think that doesn't matter, then bully for you. But don't snark at others who actually wish to take that into consideration. Settle down.
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Post by angeliclestat on Nov 21, 2010 5:11:26 GMT -5
Ummm...why am I being singled out?Sorry if you thought I was being snarky-but that wasn't my intention.I genuinely believe what I wrote.
I honestly believe that if you are a fan of Angel, then just read the comics. Stop fretting about canon and just enjoy.I think it has ruined much enjoyment of these comics for a lot of people, and that's a pity.
And I honestly do not think that Joss is going to fill in what happened between AtF and Twilight, and as an ANGEL fan that is hugely important to me.
So unless a conversation like this happens in the DH Angel book:
then I think those that read the IDW comics are safe!
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Post by wenxina on Nov 21, 2010 8:58:05 GMT -5
Stop fretting about canon and just enjoy.I think it has ruined much enjoyment of these comics for a lot of people, and that's a pity. No, the precipitous drop in quality in both the writing and art did that.
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Post by angeliclestat on Nov 21, 2010 9:45:09 GMT -5
Oh there was a period where the comics weren't good-I totally agree.But since #33 things have improved greatly.As always these statements are the good old 'IMHO', so if you don't like the comics then that is a persons own judgement. I can't argue that.
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Shane
Potential Slayer
I saw a baby today.[Mo0:0]
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Post by Shane on Nov 21, 2010 17:33:02 GMT -5
Don't see where the discussion is meant to be heading but I'll try to make my position clearer. I'm not an Angel fan, I'm mainly just fan of how Joss has expressed some of his ideas through Angel. That's what I look for most. Failing this, I enjoy any story that I think is in the spirit of the characters. When I lost interest in Angel and Buffy, I stopped reading them. I don't mean to say they were necessarily bad or out of character, just that they didn't promote the aspects that interested me. In fact, I dropped Buffy early last year but continued with the Aftermath and susequent arcs (which I've never considered canon) until a little after Brian's run was over. When it seemed I may like the stories in Buffy, I read all the back issues to catch up because I knew those stories would be built upon. IDW's later Angel stories haven't appealed to me until just now. If I think reading the back issues will significantly improve my understanding and enjoyment of these later ones, I'll do that. I'm not sure what the term "fan" means exactly but I don't think I would qualify. I like the things I think are being done well *while* they're being done well (or have the potential of being done well in the immediate future). That's about it. I really respect fans who are loyal to such things beyond this level but it doesn't mean I have to be one to give my opinion. I honestly believe that if you are a fan of Angel, then just read the comics. Stop fretting about canon and just enjoy. I think it has ruined much enjoyment of these comics for a lot of people, and that's a pity.Well, if anyone is actually *blaming* that on me giving my opinions then I'd refer them to this quote I saw in someone's signature (presented here in its vast entirety): "It's 2010. Get used to it."
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Post by angeliclestat on Nov 21, 2010 20:03:40 GMT -5
When I wrote that I wasn't referring or blaming anyone.I was just trying to say that, as far as I could see, this obsession with canon seems to have soured peoples own personal enjoyment in the fandom.And that's a pity.
I'm enjoying what I am enjoying, and no one else can change that.Same as I wouldn't presume to change another fans enjoyment of Buffy or whatever.At the end of the day we are all going to have our own opinions and likes and dislikes.And forums like this are the place to espouse them.
When new comic day comes around and it's a new Angel issue day, I'm excited and can't wait to get to the comic shop to pick up my copy of the latest issue.And quite frankly that's all I care about.
I'll leave ye to this discussion...I'm off to read the comics:-)
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Shane
Potential Slayer
I saw a baby today.[Mo0:0]
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Post by Shane on Nov 21, 2010 21:05:32 GMT -5
When I wrote that I wasn't referring or blaming anyone.I was just trying to say that, as far as I could see, this obsession with canon seems to have soured peoples own personal enjoyment in the fandom.And that's a pity. I understand. And I'm sorry for my part. Really. But my interests in the 'verse run against popular opinion (now more than ever) and I'd rather have things turn out the way I like them than how others would. And you didn't deny a very likely implication (that people who have similar views to my own should stop caring about canon, in a specific thread about canon no less, because it detracts from others' enjoyment of the comics) and I felt the need to defend myself. I didn't direct my comments at you but rather the people you seem to be speaking for. Sorry for not being explicit about that. And I hope this went without saying but I don't think it does so... no hard feelings towards those with other viewpoints and preferences.
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sire
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Post by sire on Nov 29, 2010 0:15:23 GMT -5
Well I guess SOMETHING had to happen to Angel between After the Fall and Season 8... Unless Its a plot point in Season 9 of the Buffy comics, which i highly doubt it will be, these Angel comics are sadly the best we're going to get. I agree the quality has greatly increased. I just present like Aftermath never happened (i havent read it but ive heard nothing but bad things)
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