BenTaylor3907
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Post by BenTaylor3907 on Feb 20, 2009 19:14:31 GMT -5
Why can't Cordelia be both a Higher Being and work for the Powers That Be? Don't they kind of go together?
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 20, 2009 19:24:45 GMT -5
I don't think "higher" has to mean "super-powered". Just higher in the sense that her soul has moved on to a higher level.
Just in my opinion... I like the idea that dead people can still play a role in the story. For me it balances out the fact that Joss is such a Grim Reaper with his characters. In the end, I'm here to enjoy the story, and I like seeing my favorite characters and knowing that death doesn't have to mean defeat. (Which is why Fred's fate upset me so much.)
I guess different people just look for different things in their entertainment.
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Post by Emmie on Feb 20, 2009 19:47:30 GMT -5
I never said I didn't think Cordy wasn't a Higher Being. Sorry, Wyn. I edited that post because I thought you'd also said what Andrew and Henz had said. As for the cognitive dissonance, well it isn't hard for people to forget a line that they read 4 months ago It isn't hard to forget that's certain, but the problem is that it doesn't match up with the understanding given in You're Welcome. That line wasn't enough to jar the impression that Cordy wasn't a higher being for us. Henz not having read #13 yet is actually a good touchstone for what the expectations were before After the Fall. I have read that issue. Yet I retconned it in my mind to the understanding I'd had before After the Fall, that Cordy wasn't a higher being but enjoying her afterlife. Andrew, it's not that I can't enjoy the afterlife playing a part in a story. It just doesn't fit well for me in this 'verse. My problem is that certain rules were laid out and I just want the story to fit. Why does Cordy get to send messages to Angel and Tara doesn't get to contact Willow? Why can't Joyce send a loving message to Dawn and Buffy (instead of it being the First manipulating them)? Tara was far more of a "radiant saint" than Cordy imo, a pure soul that worked only to help others and helped to save the world and she's not a higher power. There are very serious double standards here. Why is Angel the only one who gets aid from the afterlife and the higher powers? And no one questions why? The direct intervention of higher powers has only occurred when Angel was round, to my memory. It's so utterly and blatantly unfair that Angel gets to be coddled by higher powers and reassured while Buffy and Co. are left out in the cold without direct guidance. It's similar to the judgment that Angel never was called on for accepting money for helping others while Buffy refused to charge for her services. Now that she has stolen money in Season 8, it's being used to question her wavering morality. I thought this was partly addressed when it became clear that part of Angel's path and the direct involvement of the Powers was because of Jasmine's self-interest and heavier hand at interfering in human affairs directly, something the other Powers aren't as interested in. Yet this seems to be backtracked a bit with Cordy now being a higher being again - which I'm still not sure jives for me when she became one under false pretenses before. If Cordy got to be a higher being for bearing the visions, why didn't Doyle get to? He died in one of the most heroic deaths in the 'verse, comparable to Buffy in the Gift where he saw his fate and chose to give his life in order to save others. Yet Doyle didn't become a higher power, so why is Cordy now one?
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 20, 2009 20:08:03 GMT -5
Andrew, it's not that I can't enjoy the afterlife playing a part in a story. It just doesn't fit well for me in this 'verse. My problem is that certain rules were laid out and I just want to understand how it's all laid out. Why does Cordy get to send messages to Angel and Tara doesn't get to contact Willow? Why can't Joyce send a loving message to Dawn and Buffy (instead of it being the First manipulating them)? Tara was far more of a "radiant saint" than Cordy imo, a pure soul that worked only to help others and helped to save the world and she's not a higher power. There are very serious double standards here. Yes, there are... believe me, I noticed ... but the fact is that Cordelia, for whatever reason, was tapped to work for TPTB and accepted the job. Maybe they thought it was because she had the right kind of personality, some experience, the right attitude... don't know. I think there are considerations here aside from "purity" and "saintliness"... especially remembering that TPTB in the 'verse are NOT analogous to our Judeo-Christian notions of "holiness." The Powers aren't "holy" or "godly"... they're powerful, flawed beings who are the "good guys" because they, unlike the demons and the Old Ones, take (their idea of) the good of humanity at least somewhat into account in their dealings with the world. It may very well be that Tara would want nothing to do with these manipulative, arrogant beings. (Not that I think Spirit!Cordy is being manipulative or arrogant... she just sees the big picture differently.) (This whole conversation entertains me a lot, because I just recently wrote a story about Cordy and some of the other Buffyverse ghosts... including Tara... and their doings in the afterlife. It even addresses your concerns below as to why the Powers are always helping Angel but never Buffy. But, of course that does no good in helping to understand the canon.) Why is Angel the only one who gets aid from the afterlife and the higher powers? And no one questions why? The direct intervention of higher powers has only occurred when Angel was round, to my memory. It's so utterly and blatantly unfair that Angel gets to be coddled by higher powers and reassured while Buffy and Co. are left out in the cold without direct guidance. It's similar to the judgment that Angel never was called on for accepting money for helping others while Buffy refused to charge for her services. Now that she has stolen money in Season 8, it's being used to question her wavering morality. The Powers, like W&H, have settled on Angel as their Champion. Probably for the same prophetic reasons. That's why he gets special treatment. Remember that the Powers aren't interested in being Fair or Nice or Kind when there's so much at stake. They want to win when the Apocalypse comes calling.
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Nina
Potential Slayer
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Post by Nina on Feb 20, 2009 20:20:58 GMT -5
I'm still not sure of the PtB are coddeling Angel. Look what a Power that Be did to them in season 4. And what do they get in return? Some visions and a visit of Cordy in Ats season 5. Cordelia died because the Powers that Be. The Powers that Be are not interested in coddeling, they want to restore the balance between good and evil because that's who they are. And if they can use Cordelia to get Angel where they want him, they do that.
There is no reason to believe that Cordelia has the power to contact Angel, the only reason why she was there was because the PtB wanted Angel to be dead so hell-LA would be gone. They used the person they could use the most to get him there, Cordelia. How is that coddeling? The same with sending Darla to Connor, they wanted to stop Connor so they send Darla, we don't even know if it was really Darla ... the same for Cordelia who could be also a fake Cordelia. Did the PtB care about Connor or Darla? Nope, they just wanted to stop Jasmine. Sending Cordelia to Angel was a way to stop W&H. Both actions failed due the free choice of the people on earth which is great IMO.
Angel doesn't get real guidence, he just hears which people are in danger so he can save them. LA is way too big to find those people on your own. But the moment Angel or a teammember is in trouble, the PtB do nothing. They are not helping the team, they are using them. No power in the world cares more about the big picture than the PtB, that's why Jasmine did something. She wanted to help the people because the PtB don't help.
And the moment Angel got a vision in season 5, we knew that the Powers were still busy with Angel. Still sending him on missions. Maybe Jasmine made it more extreme, but she wasn't the only one who dealed with Angel.
Great topic BTW.
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Post by Emmie on Feb 20, 2009 20:34:09 GMT -5
What about Cordy being a whatever-a-higher-being is now and not Doyle? If Cordy counts because she was chosen to bear the visions, helped Angel and died in the fight for good, what about Doyle who also qualifies?
And the warm breeze to Wes seemed pretty clearly to be Cordy while the warm breeze in #17 seems a bit up in the air because Angel doubted himself. But what other "higher being" would be interested in comforting Wes than Cordy?
The whole thing just makes my head hurt. In the end, I just hope they don't use Cordy that much anymore. I'm not sure what everyone else believes in here, but I'd rather Cordy went to the 'verse's version of heaven or was reincarnated. Cordy in early Season 4 on the higher plane was bored out of her mind because she wasn't allowed to interfere. And I'd hope that she got to finally move on because I don't see her character being allowed to grow in this state except as the literal Deus Ex Machina who restores Angel's belief in his purpose.
I admit to being really scared when Lynch mentioned in his Buffyfest interview that he could see later writers wanting to bring back Fred and Wes. I miss both those characters so much and I wish they'd never died, but they did and I think bringing them back would be a step in a very wrong direction.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 20, 2009 20:39:53 GMT -5
I admit to being really scared when Lynch mentioned in his Buffyfest interview that he could see later writers wanting to bring back Fred and Wes. I miss both those characters so much and I wish they'd never died, but the did and I think bringing them back would be a step in a very wrong direction. I don't see Joss ever approving of that (it apparently took a lot of convincing for him to let Cordy make an appearance)... so if it happens it will probably be in a non-canonical story. (I'm still trying to wrap my head around what's canon and what isn't in these IDW comics...)
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Feb 20, 2009 21:17:02 GMT -5
Why does Cordy get to send messages to Angel and Tara doesn't get to contact Willow? Why can't Joyce send a loving message to Dawn and Buffy (instead of it being the First manipulating them)? Tara was far more of a "radiant saint" than Cordy imo, a pure soul that worked only to help others and helped to save the world and she's not a higher power. There are very serious double standards here. Yes, double standards but Tara & Joyce died a natural death and are not and or ever were higher beings. Life/after life is not always fair. But I guess Cordy’s past with the Powers just give her more benefits and maybe being a higher being now is somehow different than last time, she may have different duties now that never came to light in season 4. Also her hair is much longer than in season 5 so I guess she has powers over her appearance And I can not see any reason Cordy has to more on form being a higher being to the other afterlife. And would like to think she could do much more good as a servant of TPTB. I admit to being really scared when Lynch mentioned in his Buffyfest interview that he could see later writers wanting to bring back Fred and Wes. I miss both those characters so much and I wish they'd never died, but the did and I think bringing them back would be a step in a very wrong direction. I don't see Joss ever approving of that (it apparently took a lot of convincing for him to let Cordy make an appearance)... so if it happens it will probably be in a non-canonical story. (I'm still trying to wrap my head around what's canon and what isn't in these IDW comics...) Do you have any info on Joss approving of Cordy in A:ATF ? I would love to read that.
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Post by henzINNIT on Feb 21, 2009 5:46:03 GMT -5
What about Cordy being a whatever-a-higher-being is now and not Doyle? If Cordy counts because she was chosen to bear the visions, helped Angel and died in the fight for good, what about Doyle who also qualifies? And the warm breeze to Wes seemed pretty clearly to be Cordy while the warm breeze in #17 seems a bit up in the air because Angel doubted himself. But what other "higher being" would be interested in comforting Wes than Cordy? The whole thing just makes my head hurt. In the end, I just hope they don't use Cordy that much anymore. I'm not sure what everyone else believes in here, but I'd rather Cordy went to the 'verse's version of heaven or was reincarnated. Cordy in early Season 4 on the higher plane was bored out of her mind because she wasn't allowed to interfere. And I'd hope that she got to finally move on because I don't see her character being allowed to grow in this state except as the literal Deus Ex Machina who restores Angel's belief in his purpose. I admit to being really scared when Lynch mentioned in his Buffyfest interview that he could see later writers wanting to bring back Fred and Wes. I miss both those characters so much and I wish they'd never died, but they did and I think bringing them back would be a step in a very wrong direction. I understand the fine line that concerns you. The only thing I think I can add is that the intervention in #9 - while maybe not in immediate dire circumstances - was in a desperate situation with Hell-A and all, and therefore fits with previous interventions like the Snow in "Amends" and the Slots in "House Always Wins". With this you can explain away #17 as merely a sign of faith on Angel's part and not actually any form of meddling from above. This may ease your brain... or not. I share your feelings on this. I don't like the idea of Cordy being so active up there. In my view Cordy was booted from the heavens in season 4 because she meddled like she did. That was always the way I saw it. I think she was given a little room in ATF because things were bad, but I hope it was special circumtances, and I hope the writer's don't push it later on. Like you guys summised, yes I haven't read #13, I suffer the horrible fate of waiting for the HC's
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Nina
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Post by Nina on Feb 21, 2009 6:12:30 GMT -5
What about Cordy being a whatever-a-higher-being is now and not Doyle? If Cordy counts because she was chosen to bear the visions, helped Angel and died in the fight for good, what about Doyle who also qualifies? Could it be that Cordelia was easy to use because Jasmine already 'formed' Cordelia? She knows how it workes upstairs, she did know every step Angel ever took, so Cordelia probably has much more info in her head. It is even possible that Cordelia knows everything Jasmine knew. Maybe it's not even possible for Cordelia to be 'normal' again, not even in the afterlife. It reminds me bit of DoctorDonna (Doctor Who), Donna needed her whole mind wiped after she got the Doctor's mind in her mind because she couldn't deal with all that knowledge. We don't know, the PtB know more than we do. Wesley played a key role in it all. If the PtB believed that Wesley needs to keep faith, it's possible that they did something like this. But I'm a bit on the fence, on the one side I liked it and on the other side it was a bit too much. I'm with you here. Angel's super powerful best friend is terrible, the same for Cordelia returning ever again. On the other side, I can see that Cordelia is changed enough to play a certain role (not a godlike role, more a messenger/soldier role) there, especially after the whole Jasmine thing. She finished her life and she looked peaceful in YW. Which is different from her first time in heaven. But it wouldn't suprise me if she was a normal dead person for the most of the time but that she could be used for certain jobs. That would be terrible, it would be right up there with Joss' plan to bring Tara back. I know that some dead characters are amazing characters to work with, especially Wesley and Cordelia. But I would like it when they went back to the original rule 'dead=dead'. And that fans are also ready to move on and welcome new characters instead of calling for Wesley, Anya, Cordelia or Tara. But once again it's clear that Ats season 5 killed too many characters, people have a hard time with Ats because their favourite characters are gone. Killing 3 main characters really took the heart out of the show.
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Post by Brian Lynch on Feb 21, 2009 13:54:32 GMT -5
I have no idea what anyone will do in the future, that's all I meant. Reeeelax.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Feb 21, 2009 19:03:23 GMT -5
I have no idea what anyone will do in the future, that's all I meant. Reeeelax. I can't wait to see what Kelley Armstrong does with The Powers that be Storyline and see if Cordy really comes back or not...
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Post by CowboyGuy on Feb 21, 2009 19:11:28 GMT -5
I haven't read every single post...but I will say this regarding the PTB and Cordy and Angel:
Angel is a champion. He is a vampire with a soul choosing to fight the forces of darkness. He doesn't have to. The same for Cordelia. She was never a slayer with a calling like Buffy. The Powers have a plan for Angel and that is why they help him. And they use Cordelia to get the message across to him, when they need to. Buffy was chosen, she had a calling. She must fight, and really has no choice in the matter. It's been shown that had she gone rogue, the Watchers would have had no problem locking her up or dealing with her. I think that in the Powers eyes, she is merely a disposable common slayer, and they have no interest in helping her or her cause.
It's not about who is more deserving to receive help from the Powers, it's about the fact that the Powers have picked Angel to carry out their plan. Whatever that might be. So they will assist him.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Feb 21, 2009 21:32:53 GMT -5
-I can’t usually come...here. I don’t do LA, and I certainly don’t do this sliver of LA. I tried, belive me, the glimpses i’ve seen have broken my heart...
So what does "this sliver of LA"mean ?
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Post by Emmie on Feb 21, 2009 22:41:23 GMT -5
I have no idea what anyone will do in the future, that's all I meant. Reeeelax. He says in vain. What discussion will be, will be.
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Hallow Thorn
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Oh and You're Welcome
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Mar 8, 2009 4:35:54 GMT -5
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on Mar 9, 2009 17:53:48 GMT -5
It's possible that Wesley contacted the PTB not knowing that Cordy was a higher being until he contacted them and Cordy was able to answer, to let him know she was there, even thought she couldn't do anything to help, she was there :grin:
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Mar 9, 2009 17:59:46 GMT -5
Nah, he knew. He said he went into the fashion district to help their chances.
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on Mar 9, 2009 18:06:24 GMT -5
Lol, suppose that would help
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Post by Emmie on Mar 9, 2009 18:23:15 GMT -5
Nah, he knew. He said he went into the fashion district to help their chances. Which raises the question - where did that assumption come from? I know some fans thought that Cordy went on to being a higher power after You're Welcome but other fans thought she'd just moved on to heaven (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3129 - www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3415&page=2). And there's no text in AtS Season 5 to say either way. Certainly we never get a reaction from Wes regarding Cordy's return and exit after she dies. The only time Angel mentions losing Cordy is when he's worried about Fred dying and when he reveals that Cordy gave him a vision of the Circle of the Black Thorn. The thing that bothers me is that the storyline of Cordy becoming a Higher Being always seemed to be played off as a hoax/manipulation by Jasmine. And frankly, Cordy was unsuited for the job when she did have it early in Season 4 - she was bored to tears and couldn't keep herself from interfering. Here's where it starts to get a bit weird because Cordy's appearance in AtF most closely resembles Darla in Inside Out. Yet Darla is not considered a higher being. And Higher Beings aren't supposed to be able to appear on this plane or interfere, but use emissaries. It feels like Lynch was going for a Cordy visiting a la Darla projection, yet he called Cordy a higher being. Higher Being to me equals residing on a Higher Plane and sending emissaries to work their will on the Lower Plane, i.e. Earth. Darla was an emissary of the PTB in Inside Out. Cordy was an emissary of the PTB in You're Welcome. And Cordy's visit in AtF fits these roles more closely also. Yet she calls herself a Higher Being. Except when Cordy *was* a Higher Being in Season 4, she was on a higher plane and unable to interact directly with Angel. Which is she - emissary of the PTB/Higher Beings/Higher Powers or a Higher Being herself? Cordy moving the leaves fits with Higher Being/Power behavior. Cordy visiting the Lower Plane fits with being an emissary of the Powers like Darla or Cordy have done previously. There's mixed mythology here. And not in the good, genre-bending way. I've been looking for fan reactions to You're Welcome back when it first aired and I haven't found a single post about Cordy becoming a higher being/power after dying. Most people just think Cordy was dead and had moved on - (http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?showtopic=3114845&st=15). I'm going to keep looking. The repeated comments keep saying "Rest In Peace" to Cordelia and how sad it is that she's "gone forever".
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