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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 9, 2009 19:06:13 GMT -5
I don't think we have a definitive definition of "Higher Being" as "source of celestial power." She's just a higher being in the sense of having moved on to the next phase of her soul's existence. She's one step higher than us.
The one time (I think?) that Cordy refers to herself as a "higher being" was when she was not being completely serious.
I think the Powers made Cordy an emissary, partly because she was very close to a lot of the major players in the Apocalypse, and so valuable in the same way Wes was to W&H... and perhaps because she turned out to be pretty good at it when she was actually being given some guidance and not being manipulated by a corrupt Power.
If I was a Power That Be, I'd happily hire Cordy as my Girl Friday. I'd even give her business cards that read:
CORDELIA CHASE Higher Power Than You
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Post by The Night Lord on Mar 9, 2009 19:21:49 GMT -5
Could be both :unsure: Cordy is a Higher Being eg. moving the leaves, but sends herself down to help ease Angel into death like an emissary, because who better to help Angel when he's dying? At least it was someone he knew well
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Post by Emmie on Mar 9, 2009 19:47:03 GMT -5
Could be both Cordy is a Higher Being eg. moving the leaves, but sends herself down to help ease Angel into death like an emissary, because who better to help Angel when he's dying? At least it was someone he knew well The problem with her being both is that when Cordy was a Higher Being in AtS Season 4 she couldn't send herself down there. She couldn't directly communicate at all - she was stuck on the higher plane. And this is why Jasmine wanted to be reborn on Earth - so that she could finally have the power to directly influence the world, something against the rules and strictures of the PTB on the Higher Plane. Andrew, I think we've been given some pretty clear indicators of what Higher Beings are in canon and that they Ascend to a Higher Plane separate from the Lower Plane/Earth. The reason they use emissaries is because they aren't compatible with this plane anymore - they're literally in a different dimension of existence, watching from on high. The only way to come back down is to give up their Higher Being status a la Jasmine in Season 4. Like a General giving up his post to fight on the frontlines. Higher Beings are generals who give the orders to the frontlines warriors and emissaries (or rather, give vague pushes on what to do). They are separate from Earth's plane of existence. *** I'm still looking through the thread postings back in 2004 in reaction to You're Welcome. All expectations point to never seeing Cordy again and that she's dead. No mention of her working for the PTB or becoming a Higher Being again. It's making me wonder if fans might be retconning their interpretation of You're Welcome in their own minds after knowing about Cordy's appearance in After the Fall. Something else to consider is when Cordy says the "PTB owed" her a favor, she's still identifying the PTB as something other than herself. She got one chance here to get her guy back on track and help. It was supposed to be a final goodbye, the finality even more clear because Cordy knew she was leaving for good. Wow, I've read dozens of RIP's for Cordy in this reaction thread for You're Welcome back in 2004. Finally! Over 100 posts and I finally get someone who thinks that Cordy might be working for the PTB: "I hope she is back with TPTB and will continue to watch over Angel the vampire with a soul as I continue to watch Angel, the Series." - Elais February 4, 2004. Everyone else is acting like she's dead and moved on. So that is 1 out of 100 in favor of Cordy working for the PTB. But again, it's just a hope and not a certainty. "And I'm sad that Cordelia doesn't get to be happy or even reaching any of her goals in life while those ingrates Scoobies or ex-killer like Spike get second chances at life. Wow, I sound so bitter." - Ceresaya February 5, 2004 Ceresaya again feels like Cordy is done, finished. And shouldn't becoming a PTB mean that Cordy could still be happy and reaching her life goals because she's making a difference? Yet a fans' impression that Cordy can't do this seems to go against this assumption, which I'm beginning to suspect is more about After the Fall's interpretation.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 9, 2009 20:14:55 GMT -5
I don't know of anything canonical that specifically equates "Higher Being" with "one of the Powers." I think we're worrying about terminology a lot more than Brian was when he wrote it, or Joss when he approved the script.
My assumption of Cordelia's status: She's a spirit who has moved on to the afterlife and been "hired" by the Powers as an emissary. When directed to, she can visit Earth and certain parts of Hell in spirit form to carry messages, but can't influence anything directly, at least not in the living world. Her ability to do this is given to her by the Powers and is not a manifestation of her own personal power.
I think her situation is almost exactly the same as Wes's was, except her service is voluntary, and Wes's spirit was actually present there in Hell while Cordy was only projecting an image of herself that Angel would recognize.
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Post by Emmie on Mar 9, 2009 20:25:45 GMT -5
I don't know of anything canonical that specifically equates "Higher Being" with "one of the Powers." I think we're worrying about terminology a lot more than Brian was when he wrote it, or Joss when he approved the script. I don't think we can extend Joss' terminology usage to Cordy's appearance in AtF. It's my understanding that Joss very much didn't want her to appear. He wanted her death to be final. I believe there's a distinction between being a Power and being an emissary of the Powers. Jasmine was a Power and she called herself a Higher Power and Higher Being. That's where the terms became interchangeable. And Jasmine made Cordy like her in Tomorrow so that she could get access to Cordy and ride back inside her in The House Always Wins. Power that Be = Higher Being = Higher Power. Emissary of the Powers = Skip, Darla in Inside Out. So there's a big difference between saying someone works for the Powers and someone is a Power/Higher Being. One is a gopher (with noble intentions and purpose) while the other is omnisicent/nigh on omnipotent. Gods (in an ancient polytheistic mythos sense) versus the servants of Gods. The PTB watch and guide, the emissaries enact their wishes. Which one would Cordy be best suited towards? Always watching or taking action?
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Post by lightandmagic on Mar 9, 2009 20:38:46 GMT -5
Hey first post here, but this topic was so intriguing so I thought I'd give my views. Please don't rip me apart, haha.
Firstly, as to why Buffy receives no help from higher beings and Angel does:
The major reason why I think this is, in the context of the series, comes down to the Powers that Be choosing Angel as their champion, for several reasons.
In Angel, he has a giant prophecy centred simply around him, that he will stop apocalypses, enemies, prevail through plagues etc. Compare this to Buffy who has never once had a prophecy directly correlated to her. At least I don't remember so. The show has shown that prophecies come true always (unless they're fake, but this is a moot point when it comes to the Shanshu, as I don't think it would be justifiable to do that to the audience, and such a huge plot point wouldn't be trivialized like that).
We also don't know how powerful the Powers that Be are; are they well aware that Buffy's choice to slayer-ize all potentials would ultimately not amount to anything as Time of Your Life indicated, or at least what we know, and that this power that she now has her disposal and that she has unleashed does have the potential to corrupt her? Whereas Angel is able to anger a power so much grander than him that they send a whole city into hell, and the whole consequences of that remain to be fully seen (other than exposing a large majority to the supernatural).
I also think due to the nature of the slayer line prior to Buffy, with them essentially being controlled by watchers, slayers are born and somewhat forced to be heroes. Angel after getting his soul could have chosen to just kill himself, or wallow in his own misery, which granted he did for a while, but he evetually chose to do good. He chose to be a hero, and I think that's a significant fact. Buffy was, (and I'm not trying to discount her cause I think she's as good if not a better hero than Angel) forced into being a hero. Angel chose and I think that's significant.
For whatever reason, but I think these reasons specifically, the Powers That Be chose Angel, not Buffy, to be their champion and that is why he receives help. This is all just contextual too. As much as Buffy and Angel are in the same universe, they are two very different shows, and they both have different identities. The Powers that Be are strictly in the Angel side of the universe as they are solely connected to Angel as he is their champion. At least that is why I thought the Powers that Be never are on the Buffy side of things.
So as for Cordelia coming back and being a higher power:
Like Emmie said, Cordy really only became a higher power to appease Jasmine in all part of the grand scheme. However, I doubt Skip decides who becomes a higher power. I believe Jasmine manipulated the Powers into believing Cordy was more powerful than she was, but the fact remains that I think the Powers decided that she deserved to be a higher being. We also did not see how much power Cordelia ultimately had when she was "saintly."
I also interpreted Cordelia's last line as so much more than death. The two different roads idea just made me feel like her life went on in more than just some after life.
We also dont know too much about how higher being works. I mean Cordelia early-season 4 may be an entirely different version of higher power, especially considering it was being manipulated by Jasmine, than AtF higher being Cordelia.
I felt at the end of You're Welcome, the Powers made her a higher being. As she did so much, and especially after what she suffered through, she deserved as much. Although I do see your point with Doyle.
Personally, I'm glad he brought Cordy back, the absolute massacre of her character in Season 4 deserved more than just You're Welcome (don't get me wrong, amazing episode and gave some finality).
Sorry if the post has been a bit haphazard, been distracted and I have too many ideas in my head, haha. Anyways, there's my two cents.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 9, 2009 20:44:37 GMT -5
I'm just going to relax and not worry that closely about the terminology and assume Cordy is nothing more than she appears to be. I don't think we can extend Joss' terminology usage to Cordy's appearance in AtF. It's my understanding that Joss very much didn't want her to appear. He wanted her death to be final. Who overruled him? (I agree Cordy shouldn't have come back. It should have been Fred instead. "Oh my gawd, what does Cthulhu Xena over there have my body wearing? And has she been eating a blue popsicle?")
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Post by Emmie on Mar 9, 2009 20:48:33 GMT -5
I don't think we can extend Joss' terminology usage to Cordy's appearance in AtF. It's my understanding that Joss very much didn't want her to appear. He wanted her death to be final. Who overruled him? Lynch? No one else there to direct the story in another direction. As I understand it (which granted, is based on piecing together comments from Lynch and Whedon himself), Joss worked with Lynch on the outline for After the Fall and even made notes for the first scripted issue of AtF. After this point, Joss handed over ANGEL and quote said "Good luck." So his specific involvement after initially setting up the general outline of the story was limited. So it's more like being overruled for lack of involvement. Just my impression. Anyone else have other input, feel free to jump in here. Quote-y goodness is always appreciated.
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Mar 9, 2009 21:07:09 GMT -5
I seem to remember Brian saying that Joss said not to use Cordy unless the story really called for it. And, with #12 and #13, I'm thinking it did. It's not a case of anyone being overruled.
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Post by The Night Lord on Mar 9, 2009 21:11:09 GMT -5
It was stated in the interview with Brian Lynch at the end of issue 16 when IDW asked how much different did the story turn out from original outlining and storyboarding
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Post by Emmie on Mar 9, 2009 21:12:59 GMT -5
I seem to remember Brian saying that Joss said not to use Cordy unless the story really called for it. And, with #12 and #13, I'm thinking it did. It's not a case of anyone being overruled. Quote? I'm having trouble finding it. I've been looking for a while.
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Post by The Night Lord on Mar 9, 2009 21:21:03 GMT -5
IDW: "...How different has the story turned out to be from where you and Joss originally started?" BL: "...[T]he Cordelia appearance wasn't planned from the beginning. I asked Joss if she could make an appearance...f she did come back, it would have to a very powerful moment and for a really powerful reason..." Then came the part where Angel was dying and Brian needed someone for him to interact with and came up with Cordelia Hope that helps
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Post by Wyndam on Mar 9, 2009 21:23:21 GMT -5
Joss apparently thinks that Cordy is doing something "out there" post-death, for the simple fact that he told Brian that he didn't want Cordy to be used unless it was necessary. That alone shows that Joss doesn't think she is dead and buried, but has the potential to return if the story warrants it. Of course, that doesn't exactly mean that he thinks she is a higher power, but it also doesn't mean that he thinks she is in a place where she is unable to affect the story if warranted. So since Cordy didn't just die to never be heard from again, according to Joss, I don't see any reason for her not to be involved with the PTB's, or that her involvement in AtF was some sort of overruling or something. Just my reasoning. EDIT: Great timing for my post! Lol I hadn't read all the posts in this thread before posting what I did, but I am glad The Night Lord posted the quote.
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on Mar 9, 2009 21:35:19 GMT -5
Lol, you're welcome, Wyndam
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Post by Emmie on Mar 9, 2009 21:53:06 GMT -5
Thanks Night Lord. *karma* Was that from the Buffyfest interview? Joss apparently thinks that Cordy is doing something "out there" post-death, for the simple fact that he told Brian that he didn't want Cordy to be used unless it was necessary. That alone shows that Joss doesn't think she is dead and buried, but has the potential to return if the story warrants it. Well, technically she is dead and buried. Her living self died in You're Welcome. But completely gone? I think she's on another plane of existence. It's interesting to me how Cordy was only able to reach out to Angel as his spirit was leaving his body. The PTB bent some rules so that Cordy could physically be there in You're Welcome. Perhaps Cordy was only able to reach Angel by her spirit being near Angel's spirit in AtF. Kinda like Buffy and Ethan being linked in Buffy's dreamspace. It's a different plane of existence - so they were able to see each other there. Of course, that doesn't exactly mean that he thinks she is a higher power, but it also doesn't mean that he thinks she is in a place where she is unable to affect the story if warranted. So since Cordy didn't just die to never be heard from again, according to Joss, I don't see any reason for her not to be involved with the PTB's, or that her involvement in AtF was some sort of overruling or something. Where was it according to Joss? I think the quote showed that he didn't want Cordy used except for extreme purposes and most likely used to speak from the great beyond. Cordy is dead, physically. Her life as she lived it ended. So it's her spirit which has moved on. I'm getting the feeling she's more of a spiritual emissary. Again, her visit in AtF reminds me more of Darla's in Inside Out - emissary not PTB herself. For Cordy to be a PTB, that means that you can't talk to her directly. Considering that, I just think there's some sort of clarification necessary between calling her a Higher Being which Jasmine used to define herself when she was one of the PTB. So here's the confusing distinction - is Lynch calling Cordy a Higher Being and a PTB? Or saying that Cordy is a Higher Being (the way the Oracles call Angel a Lower Being at first, clearly viewing themselves as 'Higher Beings' yet they're not the PTB either - merely messengers and emissaries of the PTB)...so a Higher Being but not one of the PTB? 1. Is she a Higher Being/PTB like Jasmine was or a 2. Higher Being/Emissary like the Oracles who served the PTB and acted on their behalf.
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Mar 10, 2009 2:17:15 GMT -5
To me she is a Higher Being like the Oracles who serves the PTB and acted on their behalf but in time when she proves herself can she become a Higher Being like Jasmine but only good, so maybe 50 or 1000 years down the line and becomes much more powerful than she is now.... "I'm just on a different road. and this is my off-ramp." - to becoming a Higher Being. I wish that we could hear Lynch's views on this ... Joss apparently thinks that Cordy is doing something "out there" post-death, for the simple fact that he told Brian that he didn't want Cordy to be used unless it was necessary. That alone shows that Joss doesn't think she is dead and buried, but has the potential to return if the story warrants it. Of course, that doesn't exactly mean that he thinks she is a higher power, but it also doesn't mean that he thinks she is in a place where she is unable to affect the story if warranted. So since Cordy didn't just die to never be heard from again, according to Joss, I don't see any reason for her not to be involved with the PTB's, or that her involvement in AtF was some sort of overruling or something. *karma*
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Post by The Night Lord on Mar 10, 2009 4:37:44 GMT -5
You can find that interview in AATF issue 16
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Mar 11, 2009 0:22:35 GMT -5
Cordelia cult (info from TPB #3) A cult of Cordelia worshippers,
"She will come and judge the living and fashion impaired"
they were awaiting her return but it was all cut... So how would they know about her? from the season 4 storyline?
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Mar 29, 2009 0:43:05 GMT -5
My post probably won't sound half as intelligent as all the other brilliant posters in this thread but I will give it my go:
I am not sure if I whole heartedly agree with the statement that Cordy's presence is only there simply because she was a fan favorite. I think the fact that she is now told to be a Higher Being is because that's what fits into the story for the best. We know for a fact that just because the audience loves a character it doesn't mean that they will return. Doyle was a fan favorite and he has never once shown his face within the show or the comics (show, duh). Whedon also said he had no desire to bring back Anya either even though she was a huge fan favorite, so this means that Cordys return is central to the overall story.
Do I think that there is an inbalance of power between Buffy and Angel? Yes and no. I believe that its kind of strange that the PTB are mentioned very few on Buffy yet they are a core entity on Angel, but there's really nothing we can do about that until it is brought up within Buffy. Maybe the only reason the PTB have such a large name value within Angels world is because of Jasmines manipulation of him from S1-4. Jasmine needed Angel to know exactly where the hell these sudden visions were coming from and exactly what their "purpose" was so he wouldn't wake up and be like "what the hell was that about!?" Slayers have always had the dreams, and maybe that's their visions. Do we really need them to ask exactly where the visions came from?
I don't really see Cordy moving the wind as her interfering with Angels world, persay, because she is not directly influencing it. He doesn't know whether or not its really her, but he's using it as his kick in the ass to keep going, which I think is good. And besides, if Angel were in a bad position and then Cordy decided to create wind to knock Angels opponent over, then yeah...that's wrong. But moving the wind clearly seems to be the only natural way she can let him know she's there and she cares. Other than her being a face of the PTB, I don't see her as being able to do anything else, BUT move wind.
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Post by Nicholas on Mar 29, 2009 0:59:21 GMT -5
And I forgot this but the fact is Cordelia died. Her human body is dead. Same as Buffy's was when she did in The Gift, but Buffys spirit was still out there doing something. So why do people assume that when a character dies in the Buffyverse that there spirit either goes to Heaven or Hell. Buffy simply stuck with the term Heaven because she was happy. Cordy very well may have been Heaven too, just not the same dimension as Buffy was in. It was made clear that within the Buffyverse there is no definitive Heaven or Hell, just different dimensions that your spirit can move on to when its done on earth, to which you become a higher being. You ascend to the next level. And if that's what makes someone a higher being, technically, Buffy was a higher being too as when she was dead, she knew her friends were safe. So its safe to say she could have been watching over them just as Cordy watches over Angel.
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