Cordelia brought back from the great beyond

[Emmie]

Okay, I'd never really thought about why Cordy being brought back in After the Fall bothered me a bit. The way Lynch wrote it made it work well, but the concept of her always being there watching and able to send warm breezes just feels so against what AtS is about ultimately.

But what was it that irked me about Cordy? It didn't really click for me til I saw Thorn's avatar of Cordelia and Buffy from the Buffy omnibus cover and the text below saying, "Higher being vs. Slayer".

Now Cordy became a higher being through Jasmine's manipulations in Season 3 and was ejected in Season 4 because she interfered with the natural order by making Angel win the slot machines in "The House Always Wins". After that point, no longer a higher being and apparently no longer having with the white glowy power of Season 3 (it's never used again which makes me wonder if it was necessary for Cordy to be brought to the higher plane).

When Cordy comes back in "You're Welcome" she says, "Don't make it hard, Angel. I'm just on a different road... and this is my off-ramp. The Powers That Be owed me one, and I didn't waste it. I got my guy back on track." This is very similar to Darla being sent to Connor in "Inside Out" except Cordy actually has a physical form.

So where do we get the inference that Cordelia is now a higher being again? Cordy was sent because the Powers owed her one and so they let her go help Angel one last time. She only became a higher being through Jasmine's manipulation and when she did have that power, she abused it when she demonstrated she was incapable of not interfering. Perhaps abuse is not the right word, but she apparently broke PTB rules about non-interference and nurturing free will by not interfering with their nigh-omnipotent powers.

So where do we get the idea that Cordy dying in "You're Welcome" means she's a higher being again? All that we're shown is Cordy was sent with a physical presence to serve as an emissary for the powers and complete a mission. If anything, she gives the impression that she can't stay long because she only had that one chance and she's got to move on to the afterlife.

My problem with Cordy being used in the comics is that it clearly does show a great imbalance between Angel and Buffy's realities. Angel got visions from the PTB for years where as Buffy had to work it out the hard way. But when the visions were shown to be part of a manipulation by Jasmine, that evened the playing field back to show that all wasn't that simple. Now Angel apparently has a woman who's in love with him who's a higher being - huh?

I had trouble accepting Cordy as a higher being in Season 3 and when it was revealed that it was a manipulation it all made sense. Yes, Cordy had become a great hero. But ascending? When other people around her had been just as heroic? It didn't play for me. When I understood that it was Jasmine's self-interest that brought her that way, it made sense. But I don't see why Cordy would become a higher being again when she only became one in the first place for the grand schemes of a PTB gone bent. And when Cordy did have that power, she was unable to abide by the rules nor did she even like being a PTB - it bored her to tears.

After "You're Welcome" I'd always believed that Cordy had just died and gone on to the afterlife. Maybe even been reincarnated and I liked that idea because it meant life had moved on for her.

Now I've read before that Whedon didn't want Cordy brought back because it would ruin her exit. Not sure if he specifically meant brought back to life or not. But the problem with Cordy chilling on high with mondo powers and an extreme interest in Angel causes an imbalance again imo. She's too powerful if that's the case. And I'd never thought of Cordy as a higher being til After the Fall introduced it.

Anyways, I'm not a huge fan of that. Emissary of the PTB for that one episode of season 5 I can accept. She was like a living ghost made possible through the Powers. But I don't see where she gets to be omniscient and always watching Angel after she finally died. The point of Cordy having to physically come back for You're Welcome was because it was the only way she *could* influence Angel. She got that chance and she took it. Meaning that once she left, her chances were over. But then we get warm breezes. I don't know what to think about that. Cordy coming to encourage Angel to crossover when he's dying is fine for me because again it's like Darla coming as an emissary of the PTB. But the power to influence Hell-A just from on high and to read Angel's thoughts and send him warm breezes...I don't see where that rightly came from and I think it crosses the line of the PTB not interfering with the world below.

Thorn's avatar really does set it up well: "Higher being vs. Slayer." MASSIVE power imbalance there. Especially when you remove the fact that Cordy wouldn't be callously manipulating Angel the way that Jasmine had been because there's love and trust. It causes serious trouble for me to think that Angel essentially has the 'verse equivalent of a god on his side now and taking a very active interest in him.

[AndrewCrossett]

I don't think of her as being a "Higher Power" in her own right... just a spirit who's entrusted with a role by the PTB and given a certain amount of power to carry it out. Kind of like Wes and Lilah and Holland Manners were for W&H, only it's of her free will. She only has as much power as the PTB choose to give her, beyond her own skills and knowledge.

[Emmie]

Feb 20, 2009 13:09:44 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

I don't think of her as being a "Higher Power" in her own right... just a spirit who's entrusted with a role by the PTB and given a certain amount of power to carry it out. Kind of like Wes and Lilah and Holland Manners were for W&H, only it's of her free will. She only has as much power as the PTB choose to give her, beyond her own skills and knowledge.

Yeah, I think I can read that and accept it. And clearly my rantiness was vast in the OP.

I just don't want too much involvement with Cordelia. I feel like it goes against her exit.

[AndrewCrossett]

I was just pleased to know she's happy and doing well in her afterlife.

[Wyndam]

Feb 20, 2009 13:09:44 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

I don't think of her as being a "Higher Power" in her own right... just a spirit who's entrusted with a role by the PTB and given a certain amount of power to carry it out. Kind of like Wes and Lilah and Holland Manners were for W&H, only it's of her free will. She only has as much power as the PTB choose to give her, beyond her own skills and knowledge.

I agree. I highly doubt Cordy is up there on Mount Olympus with unlimited powers and able to do whatever she wants. She wouldn't want that and it would go against her self appointed mission when she first got the visions: help Angel succeed with help from the Power's that Be.

The Wes/Lilah/Holland comparison is great, I really like that.

[Emmie]

Funnily enough, I think this bothered me so much because I'd never stopped to think about it and it's never really been a topic of discussion here. The discussion revolving around Cordelia in AtF basically was either "yay's" or "nay's" for her appearance but we never went into analyzing what her role actually was.

I still have a bit of a problem with the warm breezes, just because they're so ill-defined. The angst of ANGEL to me was that the higher power was largely silent and this made the characters' experiences similar to our own.

Now I enjoy fantasy stories where they bring back immortal gods and have them interacting with real people. That's fun. But I never felt that was what ANGEL was about. It was about the struggle and the fight in spite of the lack of assurances from on high. ANGEL was about the uncertainty of real life and how the fight always continues. And the beauty of hope and faith is that they reside in a place in your soul that doesn't get actual, physical reassurances. A rose blooming in the arctic cold, more fantastic because of the hardship it's endured yet it still blossoms.

Which basically all boils down to me wanting a clear divide between celestial beings and Angel here on earth. Send emissaries, sure that's fine. But I'd like a few limits on the intervention. Making it snow so Angel doesn't kill himself? Sending emissaries to stop Connor from murdering an innocent and bringing forth Jasmine or helping Angel to die in order to end Hell-A? Extreme action for extreme circumstances.

But a warm breeze because characters are doubting themselves? That just seems a bit much. It's what we always hope for but never really get in real life. And I think the story is more powerful when the characters continue to fight with that hope still burning brightly in spite of being cuddled by those from on high.

Basically, I don't want it to happen too often. Or to happen at all when the cause is just that Cordy's friends are feeling down. I don't think it's warranted when characters lives aren't in the balance. Just feeling downtrodden or negative doesn't feel like it warrants that intervention. It diminishes the power of faith when you don't have to overcome your doubts on your own and rely on your faith, but instead are immediately reassured by a higher power that knows (perhaps not all but a whole lot) more than you do.

[Wyndam]

Feb 20, 2009 13:32:07 GMT -5 Emmie said:

But a warm breeze because characters are doubting themselves? That just seems a bit much. It's what we always hope for but never really get in real life. And I think the story is more powerful when the characters continue to fight with that hope still burning brightly in spite of being cuddled by those from on high.

That was never proven in the text (in #17) to be Cordy though. It could have just been Angel trying to reassure himself (which Angel points out).

In #9, the warm breeze probably was Cordy, and to use your example, I think that justified an extreme situation. Cordy needed to let Wesley know that she couldn't get through or help in any way, so Wesley could more or less stop pursuing that angle and move on and find another way to help Angel.

[AndrewCrossett]

Cordy is Angel's friend in addition to being an emissary, though, so I don't think it was inappropriate for her to give him a little bit of loving reassurance while she was in the neighborhood. It's not like she was helping him win the slot machines.

Just a little bit of reassurance of that type can make the difference in whether a hero chooses decisively to fight on, or starts giving in to doubt and sorrow. Cordy knows how Angel is with the brooding and the angst, so this little gesture helps the Cause as well as helping Angel's state of mind.

I certainly agree that it wouldn't be right for her to start following Angel around like Clarence in "It's a Wonderful Life," constantly giving him pep talks. Just the right balance was struck in the comic, IMO.

[Emmie]

Feb 20, 2009 14:06:41 GMT -5 Wyndam said:

In #9, the warm breeze probably was Cordy, and to use your example, I think that justified an extreme situation. Cordy needed to let Wesley know that she couldn't get through or help in any way, so Wesley could more or less stop pursuing that angle and move on and find another way to help Angel.

That definitely wasn't an example of dire circumstances. If Wes just wasn't able to contact Cordy or the PTB he simply would have moved on to other options. Cordy giving a warm breeze was *only* first and foremost about giving comfort to Wes that he's not completely alone. Without the breeze, Wes would have still come to the natural conclusion that contacting the PTB for help wasn't a viable option and he'd have moved on.

So again, the warm breeze was about comfort. And I'm not sure what's more worrisome, that Angel is now so convinced that Cordy is always watching that he thinks any warm breeze is there to comfort him or not. Because as you say, #17 could be Cordy or could not be Cordy. The problem is now Angel thinks it is. It worries me a bit because not only does bringing back Cordy give hope to fans, but it also makes Angel's feelings and reliance on Cordy more ever-present. How is he supposed to move on when he can't be with her if he's jumping at every warm breeze that he thinks might be Cordy in heaven?

It nullifies the healthier grief process. In real life, people die and sometimes we do feel their presence but eventually we move on. But in the 'verse, Cordy *really* is there. The uncertainty that exists in the real world doesn't exist in the Buffyverse. Cordy really did come back from the other side to talk to Angel and help him. So it raises his expectations that she will again. And it raises the audience's expectations. So now Angel is going to be stuck in even more emotional angst as he truly can never be with Cordy because she's dead, but oh yeah she still visits him a bit.

It's like Buffy telling Angel in IWRY that being around each other makes it more painful. It keeps them from moving on and creating new and beneficial emotional attachments. Basically, the development with Cordy needs to "shit or get off the pot". It's like a redux of Buffy/Angel Season 3 where they love each other so much but can't touch each other or be around each other. Except with BtVS Season 3 they resurrected Angel and had the drawn out emotional angst to eventually send Angel to his own series. Otherwise they would have left Angel dead and buried. Same thing with Spike - they brought him back fully in AtS season 5. What is the reason for Cordy here except an indulgence of her kinda sorta presence?

Death is final until it isn't. Either Cordy is back or she isn't. So that one visit when Angel was dying is fine, (dire consequences, PTB have sent emissaries before in these make or break moments) but her constantly sending messages to her friends is a bit much for me to swallow. And if she is back, then resurrect her. But this amorphous, maybe she is maybe she isn't is annoying me and I just view it ultimately as emotional torture for Angel. To draw out the love he has for her without any hope of fulfillment.

[Brian Lynch]

You guys are missing the obvious: both times the leaves blew off of the tree, it was actually a tree demon getting ready to pounce. I can't believe you didn't pick up on subtle hints about my new series: ANGEL:AFTER AFTER THE FALL: RISE OF THE TREE DEMONS.

[Wyndam]

I think it is a little too soon to be attributing Angel believing the warm breezes are Cordy, to him relying on her comforting him as his own inability to move on. I think if his conversation with Cordy in #12-13 and then the warm breeze in #17 prove anything, it is that Angel has accepted he won't ever be with Cordy. If anything, she is the main reason that he was able to move on and get passed his ordeal in Hell A, and return to his original mission: helping the helpless.

I didn't really see anything to support that Angel is now going to be more angst ridden just because a warm breeze is going to remind him that he has no future with Cordy. Besides, the warm breeze in #17 really had nothing to do with his feelings for her in the first place. All it did was lift his hopes up that Fred and Wesley were together somewhere, there was nothing in the issue to suggest he also felt any remorse that he and Cordy weren't together. After a year of Cordy being a coma and out of his life, and then his eventual feelings for Nina, I think Angel was able to move on long before he felt any warm breezes.

EDIT:

Death is final until it isn't. Either Cordy is back or she isn't. So that one visit when Angel was dying is fine, (dire consequences, PTB have sent emissaries before in these make or break moments) but her constantly sending messages to her friends is a bit much for me to swallow. And if she is back, then resurrect her. But this amorphous, maybe she is maybe she isn't is annoying me and I just view it ultimately as emotional torture for Angel. To draw out the love he has for her without any hope of fulfillment.

Since when were these rules ever established though? Cordy's death and circumstances are unlike any other in the Buffyverse. We know she was obviously contracted in some way by the PTB's upon her death, so that automatically enters a new territory in terms of what has been established by deaths in the Buffyverse. I don't think we can say that death has two extremes in the Buffyverse (dead until you aren't), because those rules obviously cannot apply in this situation. The PTB's have always been able to contact Angel in some way, so I don't see why that would be any different for Cordy, not that she is "part of the club" in some way.

The Buffyverse has always been unconventional, and nothing is ever set in stone. You can't attribute what you think should happen to some sort of unwritten set of rules that have to be followed (like Angel needs to separate himself from thoughts of Cordy looking out for him because of his situation with Buffy in the past, or that Cordy needs to either be alive or dead).

Angel knows Cordy is dead, and I think he is smart enough that he has no reason to sit around and brood in the hope that Cordy will return.

[Hallow Thorn]

Feb 20, 2009 16:12:14 GMT -5 Wyndam said:

I think it is a little too soon to be attributing Angel believing the warm breezes are Cordy, to him relying on her comforting him as his own inability to move on. I think if his conversation with Cordy in #12-13 and then the warm breeze in #17 prove anything, it is that Angel has accepted he won't ever be with Cordy. If anything, she is the main reason that he was able to move on and get passed his ordeal in Hell A, and return to his original mission: helping the helpless.

I didn't really see anything to support that Angel is now going to be more angst ridden just because a warm breeze is going to remind him that he has no future with Cordy. Besides, the warm breeze in #17 really had nothing to do with his feelings for her in the first place. All it did was lift his hopes up that Fred and Wesley were together somewhere, there was nothing in the issue to suggest he also felt any remorse that he and Cordy weren't together. After a year of Cordy being a coma and out of his life, and then his eventual feelings for Nina, I think Angel was able to move on long before he felt any warm breezes.

EDIT:

Death is final until it isn't. Either Cordy is back or she isn't. So that one visit when Angel was dying is fine, (dire consequences, PTB have sent emissaries before in these make or break moments) but her constantly sending messages to her friends is a bit much for me to swallow. And if she is back, then resurrect her. But this amorphous, maybe she is maybe she isn't is annoying me and I just view it ultimately as emotional torture for Angel. To draw out the love he has for her without any hope of fulfillment.

Since when were these rules ever established though? Cordy's death and circumstances are unlike any other in the Buffyverse. We know she was obviously contracted in some way by the PTB's upon her death, so that automatically enters a new territory in terms of what has been established by deaths in the Buffyverse. I don't think we can say that death has two extremes in the Buffyverse (dead until you aren't), because those rules obviously cannot apply in this situation. The PTB's have always been able to contact Angel in some way, so I don't see why that would be any different for Cordy, not that she is "part of the club" in some way.

The Buffyverse has always been unconventional, and nothing is ever set in stone. You can't attribute what you think should happen to some sort of unwritten set of rules that have to be followed.

Angel knows Cordy is dead, and I think he is smart enough that he has no reason to sit around and brood in the hope that Cordy will return.

This is the most funnies thing, I had a dream about this tread, my name was on it just like this one...and then everyone teamed up and / burnt me at the Crucifix, well deleted me lol... good times...

there is not more I can say that Wyndam hasn't (or that I really can, he writes so well) and he makes the most sense.. ... Cordy died, she ascended and is now a higher being like she said in #13...
I think she was only written out so Spike and come in and take over the show...)

-I can’t usually come...here. I don’t do LA, and I certainly don’t do this sliver of LA. I tried, belive me, the glimpses i’ve seen have broken my heart.... #12

-Not like that, come -on. I’m a higher being....#13

Feb 20, 2009 13:09:44 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

I don't think of her as being a "Higher Power" in her own right... just a spirit who's entrusted with a role by the PTB and given a certain amount of power to carry it out. Kind of like Wes and Lilah and Holland Manners were for W&H, only it's of her free will. She only has as much power as the PTB choose to give her, beyond her own skills and knowledge.

Yeah, that's how I see it as well... she is a servant of the Powers That Be...

Well, sorry I irritate you..... But she is a higher being and Buffy is a slayer. some die in the Buffyverse, some live and some 'live on' after their deaths just like Vampires and demons

One has to love Brian Lynch for what he has done with Cordy in after the fall...

[henzINNIT]

I think it was entirely important for Angel to re-establish faith in the forces of good above him. The Angel we saw in season 5 was the result of total demoralisation. He no longer believed in anything but the evil around him. I never saw Cordy as a higher being at all, it's debatable just how much control she has over anything if any. For me, the warm breeze is a sign of faith restored for Angel; he's finally back in a place where he can help others.

[Emmie]

Feb 20, 2009 17:10:15 GMT -5 henzINNIT said:

I think it was entirely important for Angel to re-establish faith in the forces of good above him. The Angel we saw in season 5 was the result of total demoralisation. He no longer believed in anything but the evil around him. I never saw Cordy as a higher being at all, it's debatable just how much control she has over anything if any. For me, the warm breeze is a sign of faith restored for Angel; he's finally back in a place where he can help others.

This is the fine line I'm treading right now. I can agree with this viewpoint, but again it's a very fine line to walk between use and overuse and abuse.

My problem is that there is such a diverse opinion on what exactly Cordy is because of her appearance in After the Fall. This had never really been a question for me before. After You're Welcome I'd just assumed she'd gone to heaven. But reintroducing her opens her to another chapter of involvement and my issue here is where does this go? How can a character develop and change when she's in the afterlife? Is her purpose only to help Angel? Because if she's only appearing to be Angel's support system and isn't growing in her own right, than that's not enough of a reason to include her imo beyond one visit.

It's similar to the complaint that Angel or Spike are going to show up in Season 8 and fix everything. I want the characters *in* the story to grow and falter and make these changes on their own.

No one seems to have commented on my point that Cordelia's continuing presence diminishes our ability to relate with Angel's experiences and grief.

I'm just getting fed up with the concept that death doesn't count anymore if the character is liked enough to be brought back. Angel's resurrection was necessary to bring about his own series. Buffy's resurrection was necessary for BUFFY to continue. Spike's resurrection was made central for AtS season 5 so I understand it and I'm glad he's back, though I can appreciate some critics who say that it wasn't vital that he return (I think he was central to what made Season 5 great, but it was largely a ratings decision also as it brought over more viewers from BtVS, too).

I'm so grateful that Tara wasn't brought back to life in Season 7. I think if that had happened in order to resurrect Willow's love life subplot, I'd have been incredibly frustrated. Buffy and Angel returning were absolutely central to the story. Spike's mystical death was portrayed like he was always meant to return because of the way the amulet worked - that was its intended purpose.

Tara - that would have been too much. And frankly, Cordy's 'she's here, she's not really here' is touching on something very delicate for me. Other posters are saying that Cordy restored Angel's faith in the higher powers. But to me, that's not faith but direct reassurance from higher powers that you matter. Faith is believing in something you can't see or feel or prove without a shadow of a doubt. Faith is "firm belief in something for which there is no proof." That's not what Cordy's visit does exactly. Her appearing *is* proof. What this actually restores is Angel's knowledge that he's important to the PTB, not his faith. Faith exists in spite of all the reasons to doubt. So Cordy appears and shows him he's important. That's great, but that's not faith. It's absolute assurance.

This links back to the dilemma raised by Angel being led by the visions which were in part a manipulation by Jasmine. Through the visions Angel realized he had a purpose. But this purpose was also a part of him being manipulated and used by a higher being. That's not faith in a purpose, that's fact that Angel has a purpose in the world because of the visions giving him validation. And it's ulimately misguided.

The most profound realization for Angel is when he realizes it doesn't matter what the PTB's plans are and that the smallest act of kindness is his true aim. Angel's belief in helping others is key, not his faith that the beings on high are watching and coaching the game. I'm not interested in how Angel matters so much to the PTB. I'm interested in how he matters to the world and the people in it.

This fixation with the PTB on ANGEL always makes me wonder why Angel deserves this more heavy-handed direct guidance than Buffy. Buffy and the slayers receive prophetic visions, but it's never made clear where they come from and the word "PTB" never comes up. Yet with Angel, these Powers become actual beings and this largely occurs because one of them chooses to use Angel to manipulate him. I believe the direct intervention by the Powers in "Inside Out" comes from the Powers trying to stop Jasmine in her plan because she was one of them who abused their power, so it was directly their responsibility to help stop it. I don't want the divide between the higher plane and the world to be further diminished, because the philosophy seems pretty clear to me - limited interference in order to foster free will.

Feb 20, 2009 16:58:58 GMT -5 Hallow Thorn said:

Well, sorry I irritate you..... But she is a higher being and Buffy is a slayer. some die in the Buffyverse, some live and some 'live on' after their deaths just like Vampires and demons

Just saw this. Thorn, you absolutely 100% don't irritate me. It's the story I'm bothered by, not you. We have different viewpoints on this, but you don't need to apologize to me for anything. And I understand that you like it this way because Cordelia is your favorite character. I just feel like rules are being bent in order to bring her back for the story. And you bring up the evidence I had forgotten about, that Cordy calls herself a higher being in AtF #13.

So it brings me back to my OP where I have problems with that happening. Again. Cordy became a "higher being" in Season 3 because of Jasmine wanting to use her. When she died in "You're Welcome" and returned it seemed like she was only temporally there at the leave of the PTB who owed her one for letting her body be hijacked by Jasmine. But after that point it seemed like she'd moved on to the afterlife.

[VampSlayer]

Hmmmm... Emmie, that first post made alot of sense. I always felt weird that Cordy was all powerful, so I try to think that she passed on, and is happy.

[Emmie]

Feb 20, 2009 18:18:06 GMT -5 VampSlayer said:

Hmmmm... Emmie, that first post made alot of sense. I always felt weird that Cordy was all powerful, so I try to think that she passed on, and is happy.

Well, it's nice that somebody is on the same page as me.

It's interesting that Andrew and Henz all said they don't view Cordy as a higher being when she called herself that in AtF #13. I myself thought she was something other than a "higher being" until Thorn pointed out to me that #13 had reestablished her as such.

Is Cordy a higher being or not? Did she ascend or is she merely an emissary of the PTB the way Darla was in Inside Out to Connor?

[Nina]

Well it's not the first time the PtB used something like wind to show Angel something. The snow in 'Amends' was also a sign. We don't even know if it is Cordelia, neither does Angel who ends with a line like 'I'm talking to the wind'. It could be nothing more then a breeze and the first time with Wesley it could be the PtB. The same for sending Cordelia with the job to get Angel to heaven. The Powers probably already knew that Angel's dead would fix everything so it makes sense if they send Cordelia to 'get' Angel.

I also doubt that Cordelia is right now a real higher being like the gods and other big powers are, she is just a girl from Sunnydale that became involved. Powers that Be are mythic powers who are older than the Old Ones or the First. It wouldn't suprise me if Cordelia was a special kind of dead person that comes in handy at times but nothing big or mythic. I really doubtthat Cordelia can walk on earth and use her powers to win Angel's wars or fix his problems. I think that she is a dead person with some extra duties. Her last lines in "You're Welcome" seem to indicate that she is a bit more than just dead, but I have no idea how the PtB and their godly armies/powers and employees are structured.


About Angel having the gods on his side, wasn't that always the case? Angel was chosen by the PtB to be one of their champions. Of course in season 4 this was retconned into Jasmine's work. But we still don't know how much Jasmine did. There is a good chance that Angel is really chosen by the other powers. I think that this has to do with the structures of the shows. If there is a unblanced power? I don't know, the PtB never do more than signing and sending visions. While Buffy met the guardians, the shadowmen and has Willow the almost unbeatable witch. Angel works for the powers, not with them. Looking at the many deaths in Ats, it's not like the PtB spare team Angel. They don't save him or his team or give them an easy life and when Angel dies, they look for a new warrior when needed.

In that line, the PtB don't really care if Angel moves on or is in good health. When they can use him or make him do things, they do it. If they want to make Angel do something and use Cordy to get him there, I really doubt that they would care about Angel's feelings. He is a replacable minor character in their universe, a tool. And I doubt that it's a matter of deserving, it's not a real gift to work for those powers. Angel was a person who looked for destiny and when somebody gave him one, he was ready to take it. Angel is a good warrior with lots of potential, he probably wants the same as the PtB want and there are no other (good) powers caring about him. Slayers belong to the shadowmen/watchers/guardians, they already have a destiny. And was without one.

Another option is the prophecy and W&H's interest in Angel. If it is Angel who is going to make the difference between good and evil in the big apocalypse. It's worth it to keep him out of W&H's hands.


To make a long story short, I don't think that Cordelia has real powers and that the PtB are big picture thinkers who use Angel no matter if it hurts him or his team.

[Emmie]

Nina, except Cordy herself says she is a higher being.

After the Fall #13

GUNN: That’s not how it’s supposed to*ooooph*!

ANGEL: Connor can’t take Gunn. He can’t –

CORDY: I don’t know, he looks pretty good. (quietly, to herself) Not like that, come on. I’m a higher being.

Doesn't this strike anyone as odd? That there was enough cognitive dissonance among all the readers here that it actually SAID "higher being" but we kept on assuming that Cordy wasn't really a higher being?

I kept on thinking Cordy wasn't a higher being because the end of You're Welcome played to me as Cordy moving on to the afterlife and *not* ascending to a higher being again because that was a scam by Jasmine. Yet everyone here except Thorn was going on with the impression that Cordy wasn't a higher being. Serious cognitive dissonance here that our impression of where Cordy had been since "You're Welcome" in '03/'04 to AtF #13 in 2008 when we're told in plain words that she's a higher being but all of the readers still register Cordy as being a servant to the PTB, not a higher being in her own right.

It doesn't match up. The end of You're Welcome and the story the audience took with it doesn't match AtF #13.

[Nina]

But what is a higher being? Maybe a dead person with some extra tasks is already called a higher being? Cordelia's last lines in YW do give me the feeling that she is doing something extra, like there is a small job for her. But I still think that it is nothing big, it can't be. Immortal beings that are above good and evil, are not making a girl that important, so she can play with her powers to help her friends.

[Wyndam]

I never said I didn't think Cordy wasn't a Higher Being.

I said she worked for the PTB's, but I didn't mean for that to infer that she wasn't a Higher Being. Like Nina said, this then brings up questions about what the definition of what a higher being really is.

As for the cognitive dissonance, well it isn't hard for people to forget a line that they read 4 months ago, plus Henz hasn't even read #13, unless I am mistaken.