patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
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Post by patxshand on May 16, 2009 0:06:52 GMT -5
Is "Aftermath" great? Nah, definitely not. The preview for the fourth issue looks way better, but Armstrong's grip on the Whedonesque dialogue is way too flimsy for her to be able to tackle an Angel story, especially one that follows "After the Fall." But in no way do I doubt IDW's longterm plans for "After the Fall." Even with "Aftermath," everything they've been doing with the Angel title strikes me as better than what Dark Horse has been doing with Buffy. A few continuity errors might have been flubbed (I disagree on the PTB front, and explained it in my review for #20 on BCR), but none more major than Dark Horse's. Warren didn't die, and Fray tells her sister to brake in one issue and then doesn't know what it means when Buffy tells her to do it in another. Continuity errors are just a part of the comic game, so I'm not really worried about that.
IDW just seems to care a great deal about the Angel title, and they show it with how great they are to the fans, how civil they try to be with the Dark Horse peeps, and how they really go all out to make reading Angel an experience that goes a bit beyond reading. I love IDW, and to me, as long as Angel is with them and no one else, all will be right with the comic world.
Emmie, side note: I wouldn't say it's the uberfans of Angel that docked your points. I consider myself probably the biggest Angel/IDW fan there is, and I'm certainly not the docker. I've seen pettiness all over the map here, so maybe it's better to pin it on petty people in general as opposed to one type of fan. Because we're all united under Whedon, to use your analogy.
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Post by Emmie on May 16, 2009 1:08:41 GMT -5
Pat, word on the pettiness in general (I really dislike the cursing option - it's so mean). But I have noticed a trend that it only happens when I post about Angel. There are a lot of things that IDW does well and I don't doubt the enthusiasm for the product they're bringing. I appreciate how much they care and their interest in making the experience great for readers. But when it comes to art and entertainment, the product and its vision comes above all else. I think we're working with a very different rating scale because Aftermath > Season 8 is an impossible view for me. Aftermath actually made me stop buying. I actually handed back the most recent issue to my guy who'd pulled it for me. It wasn't worth the $4. I've never felt like an issue of Season 8 wasn't worth the money I spent to buy it. In this economy where everyone's scrimping and saving, Aftermath was an easy thing to cut out of my life. Conversely, I'd scrimp and save just to buy an issue of Season 8. What is IDW doing with Angel that's better than what DH is doing with Buffy? I assume you're talking about the Hardcovers? But that's something that's planned for Season 8 also. I've gotta say, there have been a number of other flubs that I could have mentioned even going back to After the Fall's past - 1) editorial misses (dialogue boxes misplaced, misspellings, grammatical errors), 2) rushed product leading to compromised art. The same things happen a bit with continuity errors with art over at DH (Xi would be able to name off all these instances as he always notices them, he's the Jeanty art buff). Do I think Angel should be back at DH? No. But do I wish IDW were doing some things a bit differently? Yes. Again, the unifying vision of the greater story. Making it one great story rather than an expanded universe of multiple unrelated stories popping up on the horizon. I kinda fail to see how there is a greater plan that's evident when there doesn't seem to be active collaboration between the writers of the Angel product. It's why I'm so relieved that Lynch was back and working with Landau. Regarding Fray and "Brake" - that was a tossaway joke, not based on a major plot point. Sidenote: What's your spin on the PTB, Hell-A and the Potentates?
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on May 16, 2009 2:02:07 GMT -5
Pat, word on the pettiness in general (I really dislike the cursing option - it's so mean). But I have noticed a trend that it only happens when I post about Angel. I'm not really aware of my karma, so I wouldn't know if it gets docked or rewarded. I still think each post should have a rating system of 1-5 stakes. I feel both are important. With IDW, I've found both the heart, entertainment, and vision there. There have been mistakes (some, but certainly not all, of Aftermath, for me), but that is true for Dark Horse as well. Oh, Aftermath is certainly not better than Season Eight as a whole. Not by a longshot. But is, let's just call it, "Angel: The Official Continuation (1-20 so far)" better than Season Eight? For me, absolutely. There's not even a dream of a contest. Aftermath hasn't been the easiest read, but I'd say that there has been a Season Eigth issue just as bad as each Aftermath issue. I enjoyed Angel #18 far more than Buffy #5, Angel #19 pretty much equals the horrid Buffy #20 for me, and Angel #20 (which I actually enjoyed) is better than Buffy #21. My rating systems over at BCR changes with each comic, yeah, but I have an odd system. I sort of rate the comic based on where it's coming from as well. I was a bit easy on Angel #18, came down hard on #19 because it should have gotten better, but really impressed with how #20 picked up. And damn if #21 doesn't look good, art wise. Hardcovers, better fan communication, really great Comic Con Presence, better overall handling of the story, the way I see it. I know you'll probably disagree, and that is totally cool. I just pretty much prefer everything IDW has done to most of what Dark Horse has done. Though, I certainly wouldn't want IDW to have the Buffy title; it's rightfully Dark Horse's, and they were doing fine with it until halfway through "Time of Your Life." That arc bounced back with the stellar #19, but I just think the "Predators and Prey" arc was a terrible idea, especially at the weakest, most inconsistent period of the series. I'm not really happy with "Aftermath," but I'd take those three issues over Buffy #20-22 any day. Yeah, that is definitely true. It happened to both books, though probably most noticably with #9 of Angel and the last page of #11. Though I don't know what's up with Jeanty's art of late. I gave a bit of speculation on his usually stellar wideshots in my review of #25 (which was awesome). Hahaah we talk alike. That is basically what I said about Buffy/Dark Horse. Yeah, that is something we lose with comics, though. That is thinking of it from a TV perspective. Season Eight is the exception, because comics don't usually have showrunners. Like, with Runaways... BKV started it, Joss took over for an arc, and then Moore took over for an arc. There is no unifying vision other than the editors, because that is how it goes down for comics. If we get great writers, though, and I trust we will, that doesn't have to be a burden. I agree. To quote Borat, VEHHHY NICE. I don't know, it bothers me from a logical point of view. She forgets what a common word means that she used just two issues ago. Bleh. But yeah, I think that was mostly because Joss was tinkering a bit too much with the way Fray spoke/understood modern stuff. Which I reallllly didn't like, because that makes it inconsistent with Fray as we knew her. Haven't read #20 since it came out, so I'd flub it. But here it is: buffyversecomics.blogspot.com/2009/04/armstrong-takes-step-in-right-direction.html
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valyssia
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Post by valyssia on May 16, 2009 4:23:27 GMT -5
I very rarely post here and when I do I usually upset someone. I'll do my best to avoid that this time, but no promises. You see, I made the mistake of clicking and ended up in this thread. As with the comic, I haven't read it all, so please excuse me. You lost me when you started talking about karma points. The quality I bring to the discussion is that I'm a consumer. I call myself that in fairness based on the 122 different copies of various books I own in just the ATF and Aftermath series. I haven't read the Armstrong storyline 'cause there's no HC available yet. Yes, I own the HCs too. Funny, I don't touch the books. I buy 'em, I store 'em and I move on. I read the HCs. I've enjoyed them thus far. I will say that I'm not as fond of the cover art. I don't have any idea what's up with the leopard on cover of the first Aftermath issue. And I'm pretty sure I don't wanna know. It's sad too because I buy these books mostly for the art. I'm still buying the Buffy books strictly for the Jo Chen covers. I skipped the last one. I really felt for Chen having to stare at that whatever for something over a week. As a consumer, I like IDW. The smaller spin offs. (Blood and Trenches) Jeez that was good. I'll take it. Here's the thing. While I haven't read Aftermath, I'm just gonna guess that our friends at IDW haven't recycled an old Charmed plot lines for pivotal books in their series. If they could've only gotten Robert Englund to play the pseudo-Geppetto... I'll probably buy the Chen covers 'cause honest for four bucks, the cover art is enough. But I strongly doubt I'll bother to read another one of the Buffy books. My reading was sketchy at best before this last issue. Now I'm not sure I have the fortitude to crack another cover. It's just that bad IMO. I won't say that for IDW. I'm really, really, really looking forward to Fallen Angel: Reborn for the art, the story and the entire shebang. Opinion really is what this is about. I stand by mine. Just my .02... Val
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Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Attack Attack!
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Post by Malsad on May 16, 2009 12:18:08 GMT -5
Wow, I've never thought of it that way b4, but it's bloody brilliant!
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Post by wenxina on May 16, 2009 13:31:34 GMT -5
Wow, I've never thought of it that way b4, but it's bloody brilliant! Yeah, but it's also a reason that a great many comic books tend to run off track, go out of wack (yes, that's how you spell it), and just go off-kilter in general. I'm not saying that the Angel franchise has gone there yet, but if "Aftermath" is any indication, it's on its way to an on-off path. Lynch's "AtF" was great, and I know that many are banking on his return to bring the series back up to par, but this whole waiting for the prodigal son to return deal is just kinda ridiculous to me. As a fan of the franchise, and a consumer who's paying to read these works, it's a damn shame to see Angel mired in lousy writing and lousy art. And then, the question of whether or not I can follow the follow-up arcs if I ignore the existence of "Aftermath" comes up. I understand that IDW doesn't have the license to call what they have "Angel S6", but I don't understand why they couldn't keep things simple and streamlined, and most importantly keep the quality bar set high. I don't dispute that IDW is truly passionate about their product, and they probably do have a closer relationship with their readers. However, I, like a few others before me, don't like what they're doing with the franchise. I'm not a blind follower of S8 either; just thought I should throw that out there. Was sorely disappointed with #24, and I don't think I had a single significant good thing to say about that issue, other than it came out on time. *golf clap* EDIT: BTW, we have really veered off-topic again... not that this isn't relevant, just that there have been several other threads pertaining to the matter that's being discussed of late. And I'm guilty too. But perhaps we can either wrap this up here, or just continue on the proper threads? EDIT2: Went back trying to find the threads I mentioned, and can't find them. I guess they were just integrated into the discussion of the various issues. So disregard the recommendation for now, unless someone else finds it and posts the link to it. EDIT3: FOUND IT! The title of the thread may be misleading, since the conversation did shift somewhat in focus. Click here to go there. EDIT4: Going for the record in number of edits here... I was just going through the first few pages of the posted link, and realized that much of the optimism that sustained the arguments counter to what Emmie, myself and a couple of others believe has more or less taken a hit or two AFTER the release of "Aftermath".
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BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Resident Charmed Fan[Mo0:12]
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Post by BlueJay on May 16, 2009 14:30:10 GMT -5
After going to my comic shop several times this month to catch up on collecting the Season Eight issues, I realized there are a LOT of Angel issues. Why does there have to be like 10 versions of the same issue? I'm an obsessive collector, so it bums me out if I can't collect EVERYTHING. But it's too damn expensive. It's like 30+ bucks if I want to get all the covers for one issue. So... I just settle for the Hardcover volumes instead of getting the individual issues. I also notice that there are several Angel miniseries going on. Why is the Angel franchise getting so frikkin overwhelming? Why can't IDW be more simple like Dark Horse is with Buffy? Buffy just has a painted cover and a drawn variant, and there's only one linear storyline (all directed by Joss), whereas Angel seems to be going from one creative force to another, not really catching my interest. And that's saying something, considering that I, at one point, liked the Angel TV series over the Buffy TV series. And I'm talking mostly as a comic newb here, though I've been a fan of the Buffyverse since the 90's.
In conclusion, I like Dark Horse better. I kinda wish Dark House kept the rights to Angel.
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Nina
Potential Slayer
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Post by Nina on May 16, 2009 18:35:17 GMT -5
Well I guess that the fact that Joss shows very little to no interest in de Angel story (after After the Fall) is the reason that there is not one person overlooking it all like a producer. It takes a lot of time, and I doubt that it pays well. I'm not sure (you hear so much), but I believe that Joss doesn't even want Angel to be done that way because he is not on board. It can't be a season 6.
About the many titles, I'm a bit annoyed by the several titles that belong to the official line as well. It makes it a bit confusing. But the titles like 'Blood and Trenches' and the episode remakes are not part of the official title and are just made for fans and to make money. IDW is not the biggest company in comic land, and Angel is one of their big titles. When people keep on buying, they keep on making Angel comics ... it's how you lead a company. Especially because the Angel title is no longer followed by Whedon.
And I don't know about the many versions of the comics (in my head there are only the 2 covers and the HC), but you don't have to buy them all.
I'm really afraid that the Angel title would not have any big story when it was with DH. They never showed much interest in the title, and it would probably be not really part of their interest because they already have the popular and big BtVS title. IDW gives a lot of attention to the Angel comics, this leads into many different stories and special editions. But like I said, you can buy them all or choose the ones of your interest (like the official series) ... I'm just happy that I still can read about my favourite characters in their own story while knowing that there will be new stories after the current one.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on May 16, 2009 20:01:13 GMT -5
After going to my comic shop several times this month to catch up on collecting the Season Eight issues, I realized there are a LOT of Angel issues. Why does there have to be like 10 versions of the same issue? There's not. They started off with a lot of variants, because they were printing many, many copies. It was as a bonus to the fans, releasing these different prints; thanking them for buying the first round. All comics have variants, and most successful ones have more than two variants. ANGEL doesn't really have that many variants at all at this point in the game. There is always an A and B cover, as well as retailer incentive virgin versions of the normal covers. That isn't exclusive to IDW or Angel at all, it's just the way comics function. The RI gives incentive to retailers ( ) to purchase x amount of comics, because there will always be that one customer who wants the virgin. But you can't hold that against IDW. It's not really rational to do so, because a lot of people really enjoy having the option to pick. They do it for the fans who a) are obsessive collectors and b) can afford them. They're not taunting those who can't, they're just giving the option to those who can. Again, this is a matter of choice. If you want one linear storyline, pick up the comic that just has the title ANGEL on the cover. The rest, which is fairly easy to follow, is again for those who want it. A lot of people don't want the episode adaptations... so they don't get them. Some people might not even want to invest in flashback stories (though they're really missing out)... so they don't get them. It's not as if they've got a bunch of interwoven, ongoing Angel series that conflict and confuse people. There is one main storyline and some stories that are clearly on the side. Again, for the fans who dig that kind of stuff. Aw, would you really want to see a grown man cry? Because I would.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on May 16, 2009 20:40:14 GMT -5
Yeah, that is something we lose with comics, though. That is thinking of it from a TV perspective. Season Eight is the exception, because comics don't usually have showrunners. Like, with Runaways... BKV started it, Joss took over for an arc, and then Moore took over for an arc. There is no unifying vision other than the editors, because that is how it goes down for comics. If we get great writers, though, and I trust we will, that doesn't have to be a burden. Runaways is a horrible example to use because that title deteriorated rapidly after Vaughn left. It went from being one of my favourite comic series to a total non-entity to me. This is what happens when there isn't a unifying vision, some kind of rudder to steer the ship. This is an unfortunately widespread occurence in comics; when a good writer leaves, a crap one shows up and writes the series into the ground. Runaways, Ultimates, Astonishing X-Men, New X-Men ( ), Ultimate X-Men... all brilliant titles that died on their arse when their writer was replaced. On TV, you usually have the creator/producer to oversee everything and keep it all on track. But with comics, it's just one writer following another in succesion, with drastic shifts in tone and quality. It's horribly inconsistant and if you ask me, more comic books should be following Season Eight's example. Oh, Aftermath is certainly not better than Season Eight as a whole. Not by a longshot. But is, let's just call it, "Angel: The Official Continuation (1-20 so far)" better than Season Eight? For me, absolutely. There's not even a dream of a contest. Aftermath hasn't been the easiest read, but I'd say that there has been a Season Eigth issue just as bad as each Aftermath issue. I enjoyed Angel #18 far more than Buffy #5, Angel #19 pretty much equals the horrid Buffy #20 for me, and Angel #20 (which I actually enjoyed) is better than Buffy #21. My rating systems over at BCR changes with each comic, yeah, but I have an odd system. I sort of rate the comic based on where it's coming from as well. I was a bit easy on Angel #18, came down hard on #19 because it should have gotten better, but really impressed with how #20 picked up. And damn if #21 doesn't look good, art wise. "Predators and Prey" has been trying, yes, but Season Eight is still vastly superior to Angel IMO. Aftermath better than "The Chain"? Oh Pat, what am I going to do with you...
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Post by Emmie on May 16, 2009 23:11:13 GMT -5
"Predators and Prey" has been trying, yes, but Season Eight is still vastly superior to Angel IMO. Aftermath better than "The Chain"? Oh Pat, what am I going to do with you... Yeah, I "skrr what"-ed when I read that too but didn't have the time to tackle it. And I believe Pat and I have had that conversation before (maybe over a year ago?).
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on May 17, 2009 0:29:33 GMT -5
Paul: "Runaways" isn't a horrible example. Joss did fantastic following BKV, and Moore did terrible. It pretty perfectly shows how all comics have their ups and downs. We're not dealin' with TV anymore, and that is just part of the game.
Emmerz and Paul: Yeah, I think that "The Chain" is basically the worst thing Joss has ever done. I love, love, love Joss and he's definitely my favorite writer and perhaps the most important artist of our time... but I think "The Chain" is just a badly written story. Some true, rough emotion, but the overall product is just bad.
Overall, I can't really understand the POV of those who think that Buffy 1-25 > Angel 1-20, but hey, it's an opinion, so as Ali G would say, "respeck." I know what stories touch my heart and brain in the end, so I guess it's all subjective. I actually wrote a paper about the subjectivity of literature that focused on Angel. Maybe I'll post it here one day.
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valyssia
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Post by valyssia on May 17, 2009 0:40:46 GMT -5
but Season Eight is still vastly superior to Angel IMO. If you'll excuse me, I'd like to dive in and point out that that's exactly what this is about. Opinion.I don't know how IDW ended up with Angel. Pure, dumb luck? The good kind. But in my opinion, I would abso-freaking-lutely love to see them with both titles. That and more, real, direct input from Joss. We might actually have a Buffy series worth reading. Face it, with as many irons as he keeps the fire, no one's really got him. We're in Season 6 and 7 again. He's little more than a creative consultant on either project. He may write a book or two on the Dark Horse side of the camp, but all of the other guest authors that are brought in... Do they even confer? The story's all over the place. Frankly, here's what I look at: This... ...compared to this... ...is like comparing this... ...to this. While there's absolutely nothing wrong with the second set of images, I'm gonna be way more apt to spend my money on the first examples. Fact, look over the comics Dark Horse offers. Look at the crap besides Buffy. All of it. They haven't got the staff to match IDW in terms of pure artistic quality. They have people like Jeanty, who thinks that a strong woman must be a body builder. A man who admitted to knows so little about the show that he questioned a friend to come up with Buffy's dreamscape in issue three. I mean, c'mon...you're getting paid what and you can't even watch enough of the show to put that together yourself? It was nice for all the Spuffys and Bangels, but really, where'd the nurse's uniform come from? After being too put out to read Harmonic Divergence. (In a world where CG can pretty much show you whatever, who would really buy Harmony's little reality show? Makeup! Effects! Moronic premise.) I picked up Swell and found the fortitude to thoroughly enjoy (read with lots of sarcasm) Kennedy's Mary Sue apology to the legions of straight boys and girls who completely flipped out over the publicity stunt that was Buffy and Satsu. If you're gonna do something like that, for god's sake don't apologize for it. It's lame. I didn't need a reason. I was fine with simply saying 'it is.' I guess I'm the only one. Whatever... Great story. So I picked up issue 25 and went 'what the heck, I won't just bag this one and toss it in a box.' You can read my opinion above. And it's not just the most recent issues. I disliked The Chain too. The idea was cool, but they totally missed in the execution. It didn't resonate for me. I disliked The Long Way Home. Six slayers taking out fifty'ish armed soldiers was just dumb. I disliked No Future for You. Regressing Faith to Season Three was pointless, not to mention detrimental to the character. The only books I've seen that were worth reading were Anywhere but Here. (God the art was better. What happened to the artist? Can we get them back?) And Wolves at the Gate, if I completely ignore Mecha-Dawn. That was just stupid. This is, naturally, all opinion. But I'm afraid I have to stand with Pat. I have no such loathing for the parts of ATF I've read thus far. Val
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Post by wenxina on May 17, 2009 3:17:07 GMT -5
Do they even confer? The story's all over the place. Actually, yes, they do confer quite a bit (as far as I know, they touched base at the Emerald City Comic Con to iron out some details about the end of S8). And once more, we're at the bloody problem of trying to compare S8 to the Angel franchise, not in terms of how the different publishers are dealing with their respecting leases, but rather from a story-telling POV. "AtF" was essentially a summer blockbuster movie. S8 is well, a full season. The stories unfold differently. An example would be how Firefly compared to Serenity. If you're going to compare the two, then be fair and realize that we have no idea where the Angel story is going either. To quote you, "The story's all over the place". And in this case, quite literally. I'm pulling from memory here, but let's pool all the different IDW Angel projects right now. There's the "official" continuation (quote marks denote a quote, not sarcasm) of the Angel series which is "Aftermath" (total bollocks in my books). We have a planned Spike series with Lynch and Urru. We have a Gunn one-shot. We have a Drusilla two-parter featuring the talents of both Lynch and Juliet Landau. And I think we just wrapped up one of the episode adaptations. And "Blood and Trenches". And the Illyria guest-starring role in Fallen Angel. I may be missing something. But how many of these actually continue the Angel story? And if you will, how much can you tell me about where these stories are going? As far as I know, S8 has been mapped out to its conclusion (by Joss, even if he doesn't write the scripts... and he supervises all the scripts that aren't written by him anyway), and just because you don't see the roadmap just yet doesn't mean that the folks involved are equally in the dark. I'm not saying that the folks over at IDW don't know where they're going either, but just drawing from your quoted text above, I think it's fairly one-sided to dismiss one camp as flying in the dark without conceding that you have no clue as to where the other camp is headed either. As far as the art goes, I'll take the S8 stuff. I don't get body-builder from Jeanty's Buffy at all, so it may just be my warped perception as to what a body-builder looks like. Usually, there's a lot more muscle involved. I'm not trying to bite your head off, but I'm expressing my opinion about the art here. It's a comic book. It's supposed to look more dynamic as compared to photorealistic. But that comment about Jeanty needing to consult a friend is incomprehensible to me. Would you rather someone like Dave Ross ("Aftermath" penciller), who evidently didn't research the characters enough to just produce his own parodies of what the characters were? Where Kate looks like Pam Anderson in a Britney-fied outfit? At least Jeanty consulted a fan who would know things that he may not have picked up on, being new to the fandom at that point. EDIT: I just checked back, and realized that you haven't read "Aftermath" at all, which is the source of frustration for many, including myself. Thus, I'll make it clear: I don't think anyone here disputes the quality of "AtF". However, a few of us aren't satisfied by the sudden plummet in quality in the Angel franchise post-Lynch-Urru.
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valyssia
Innocent Bystander
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Post by valyssia on May 17, 2009 7:28:42 GMT -5
I think it's fairly one-sided to dismiss one camp as flying in the dark without conceding that you have no clue as to where the other camp is headed either. My rant wasn't about the quality of a broad sweeping arc. It was about the quality issue by issue. You have to understand that a good writer can expand a mythology in 1000 words. It doesn't take much, just quality writing. In turn a good artist can do the same. With one picture they can take you to the same place that a good 1000 words can. I question the artistic quality of the project as a whole. And I don't need some broad, sweeping story arc to give me that. What I want is something that seems a little less like a microwave dinner. Right now what DH is giving me with Buffy is a lot like a Hot Pocket. Some of us like Hot Pockets. Some people love 'em. I can eat one every now and again and not feel cheated. They aren't bad. But I'd rather have... What IDW has given me with Angel and co is more like dinner at Perkins. (For those of you not on the right coast of the U.S. think Denny's with less grease.) But occasionally IDW gives me--and this a me thing--really good, authentic Japanese sushi. Sorry, like I said, me thing. I love sushi. Substitute your favorite meal in place of my sushi. Want a small example? Read Spotlight Illyria. It's not long or involved, but it leaves you feeling like you've learned something of value about the damned character. It's good story. The art isn't eyepopping. It's isn't even close to photo-realistic. But it's good. And never do you wonder which character is Illyria. She's there and she never has Chuck Norris arms. It even looks a bit like Amy Acker. It's like this: Did ya like Season Six? Probably not. Most fans didn't. Did ya like Once More with Feeling? Probably. Most of us did. We got 1000 good words from Joss in the middle of a, uh... What was that? It was badness. Most of us, that aren't Spuffy shippers can agree on that. Sorry, to the Spuffys. I've got no beef. It's just S6 was badness. It's a fact. It's actually great from a 'dissect the character, see her at her worst' perspective, but the story was all over the place and just plain horrid.Now let me ask you this: What do you watch? If you were given a choice between OMWF and pick a random ep from S6...let's say Life Serial. Which would you watch? What's the better waste of your 50 minutes? Now pick one issue or story arc from the Buffy S8 comic and tell me you feel the same way. I bet you can't. I sure can't. You ask me the same of the recent Angel stuff and I'll head right for B&T. *shrugs* But it's not just that... The quality of the Lynch/ Runge arc was just so much better than Buffy S8. The story was tight and it worked. The art never made me wonder. It actually made me want to look. As much as it pains me to say it Spike ATF was a better arc than any of the Buffy S8 stuff. I'm not a fan at all, but the story was just better. Joss forgot that Warren appeared as the First? Really? As an author, you don't make that kind of glaring error and care at all. Lynch cared. I don't know about Armstrong, but it's obvious that Lynch cared about the material. Show me that kind of glaring retcon in the Angel series so far. As far as the art goes, I'll take the S8 stuff. I don't get body-builder from Jeanty's Buffy at all, so it may just be my warped perception as to what a body-builder looks like. SMG has no where near that kind of muscle definition or mass. Portrayals of her shouldn't show that kind of musculature. And I don't care that they be photo-realistic. That's not my beef. I care that they be realistic, true to the person being emulated. Honestly, the animated series art used in We'll Be Right Back After whatever...may look like Sabrina the Teenage Witch, but it's a better portrayal of the actress. The image I posted of the Joker from the graphic novel Arkham Asylum is in no way photo-realistic to any human being alive. It's good art. *shrugs* Jeanty doesn't capture SMG. His art doesn't make me think of her at all. She looks like a chipmunk. Runge's art makes me think David Boreanaz. And the truly painful thing about this for me is that I don't think Angel was half the show Buffy was. I don't really even like Angel. But the art and the story have been consistently better. They haven't given me Angel as a jewel thief (boy was that OOC) who can just come up with a submarine. I know we haven't seen that yet, but really...did Buffy pull that out of her pocket? O.O I honestly think they're trying to show us that Buffy's suffering from PTSD, but the attempt is so hamfisted that I'm merely guessing. EDIT: I just checked back, and realized that you haven't read "Aftermath" at all, which is the source of frustration for many, including myself. Thus, I'll make it clear: I don't think anyone here disputes the quality of "AtF". However, a few of us aren't satisfied by the sudden plummet in quality in the Angel franchise post-Lynch-Urru. It saddens me to hear that. As I said, the cover art took a downward turn too. But so what if they give me a few Hot Pockets? I have faith that in the future they'll give me sushi once again. It'll happen. And even if it's a drop in the bucket like B&T was. I'll take it. Val
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Post by angeliclestat on May 17, 2009 7:59:14 GMT -5
I am not gonna get into the whole Angel v Buffy thing. For me I always preferred Angel but that is just a preference.
However I do prefer what IDW has done with the comics. After the Fall was amazing. Some weak points but overall it was a huge,tragic,epic,funny Angel movie we all wanted.
Aftermath however has been crap so far lol.*But*..judging by next weeks issue things are looking up.The art is improved a million percent, and even the writing seems better. Of course I will reserve total judgement until I read the whole issue...but I am quietly confident that it will be great.
My only concern is that there will be a lack of direction, compared to season 8 which has a direction - whether you like it or not is another matter but it is going somewhere. That is the only thing that Angel needs...lets see what happens!
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Post by wenxina on May 17, 2009 8:55:46 GMT -5
val: I think one thing we can agree on is that our "opinions" differ. You're going on the basic premise that you essentially don't like S8. I, however, do like it, art included. I prefer the feel of it. I'm not slighting "AtF"; as I said, totally different beasts. But I don't find S8 Hot Pocket-ish at all. However, I will say that I find "Aftermath" to taste rather like taffy... and taffy tastes really acrid to me, for some reason. And it extends beyond the the cover art. And even with the improvements that people are seeing (there are some mild improvements to me), it still reeks. As for S6... I actually rather like it. It's not the most cheerful, and it's not the season I go to for a fun romp through memories, but other than "OMWF", I kinda like the last two eps of the season. And going on your bet, I actually find "NFFY" and "ToYL" to rank pretty high. "A Beautiful Sunset" is probably my favorite of the lot still, for it's simplicity and poignancy. As for Jeanty's SMG likeness... methinks that you're judging it entirely on that cover image you posted. His Buffy is nowhere near that bulky in all other instances. And while he may not capture the photolikeness in the style of Chen, he manages to capture something that's so inherent to the character that it's always Buffy you're looking at. But art is subjective. I find that I like Jeanty's looser pencils to the more heavily lined work of say Cliff Richards or any of the Angel artists to date. Dimension can be added by the colorist... unless we're going with a black and white book. But personally, less is more. Kinda like a Rembrandt sketch. I recognized the image you posted as from Arkham Asylum, and I also remember enjoying that. But I also remember the Batman franchise being under DC. I know that's not the point you were making. The point is, as good as the art was, it's not suitable for a franchise comic. But here we are again, with art being a subjective matter. As for glaring retcons... erm... Angel's tattoo disappeared. Yes, some excuse was made up for it... but the same can be said for the Warren being alive thing. It's addressed in the lettercol of one of the "NFFY" books. Look, not gonna bash "AtF". But Warren's return doesn't ruin anything for me. And hey, as I said before, I enjoy S8. There have been issues that I've not liked at all (i.e. #24), but there is no throwaway arc to me. It's all significant. And as far as the handling of the material goes, I personally approve of not splintering the Buffyverse up to tell multiple stories at the same time. So no Faith spin-off is actually a good thing for me. Also because I've never felt that Faith could carry an entire series on her own... she was, and always will be Buffy's dramatic foil, which isn't a bad thing, just not enough, is all. Sidenote and then I'm out: Buffy didn't pull the sub out of nowhere. It was stolen from vampires. And they just kept it, which is the same as stealing I guess. But there's precedence for this: the rocket launcher. And just like that instance, it will come back as handy... judging from the #27 Chen cover and issue solicitation.
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Post by Emmie on May 17, 2009 9:18:23 GMT -5
Val, did you seriously just bash the Batman: the Animated Series art in comparison to some random artistic cover art? Ever heard of the expression - apples and oranges? Comparing cover art to animated art is a ridiculous stance when they serve different purposes and have different medium restrictions. Animated art has to move. Cover art doesn't. Oh yeah, and comparing a good piece of art with another good piece of art doesn't make your point. Batman the Animated Series art was lauded for it's groundbreaking new usage of illustrating on black paper to give a darker effect (they invented this procedure) as well as its realistic depictions.
As for the Buffy Season 8 art bash, can we get something that's not from spring 2007 before Jeanty refined his drawings of Buffy?
As for Season 6, seriously wide sweeping bash for all around isn't it? I happen to know a lot of people who love that season, myself included.
As for Joss' involvement, you frankly don't know what you're talking about. The man has written 11 of the 25 issues that have been published and he goes over every script.
As for (this broken record I've been going with here) the main thrust of this thread, we've been talking about Aftermath. It's hard to take your argument fully when you haven't even read the piece.
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Post by angeliclestat on May 17, 2009 9:35:38 GMT -5
Do you all know what. Maybe it's time to stop the Angel v Buffy thing. I will admit that I was guilty of it back in the day. I guess I was annoyed at the whole canonicity debate, and people slighting Angel and I took it out on Buffy. No I havnt enjoyed Season 8 (I stopped reading many issues back) but you know what? Doesnt matter. Angel and Buffy are both successful comics now,and we should be rejoicing in this fact instead of trying to tear either comic down.
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Nina
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 141
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Post by Nina on May 17, 2009 10:10:18 GMT -5
Although I agree that the Buffy vs Angel thing is silly (and that I'm guilty of it as well). It annoys me a bit that Aftermath not working means that IDW is unworthy of the Angel title. So, Kelley Armstrong and Dave Ross (Who are both really talented, so it makes sense that they were asked... ) couldn't capture the Angel feeling. Sad, especially because it was the first arc after the offical ATF. But IDW has been very good for the fans and we got some amazing issues, covers and random arcs (Blood and Trenches) from them.
Ats will never get the same thing Buffy gets, Whedon doesn't have the same investment in this series. Which also means that writers like Vaughn, DeKnight, Goddard, Petrie and Espenson, won't write for it. Brian Lynch writes amazing but he can't write it all, so IDW needs to search for new writers and there will probably be come great finds but also some writers that are not able to capture it. Nobody (fans, writers and IDW) wants bad arcs, but sometimes it happens. IDW does probably everything they can to make a good comic and the most people working on the Ats title, love the series so they certainly don't want to blow it.
So let's give IDW a bit more time and don't judge it after the first arc they made after ATF.
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