Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by Enisy on Nov 16, 2008 17:26:12 GMT -5
I can almost imagine Spike being struck dumb for a moment by this realization and saying, "Poor sod. Got what he always wanted. And it's killing him." The pity then changing to frustation, to a 'get off your ass' anger: "Except not today - you don't get to quit today. Come on, hero, time to cheat death one more time. " Nah, I think jealousy would take precedence over "get off your ass" anger here, given their history. I thought the rambling and the mildly petty comments were very in-character -- not just humorous for the sake of being humorous. (Besides, it did have a serious core: "Don't tell me. I hate reading the end of a book before I get there." -- "But -" -- "I don't want to hear it!") Since we're on the subject, though, one downside that comes with the actors' absence is that the writer often has to explain what the character's feeling or doing at the time; it can't be made apparent from a mere panel. In this case: "Nervous, rambling because he doesn't know how to handle the news. Must be out of cigarettes, that's usually his crutch when he's flustered." (Well, I guess someone else might instead view it as an upside that comes with narration, but it's a downside to me.)
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cheryl
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Post by cheryl on Nov 16, 2008 18:42:32 GMT -5
Preview panel looks great. Can't wait to see what happens Wed.
I thought all the dialog was just as in character as it has been all along. Gunn is a surprise, especially after the last issue had me calling him a bastard.
Darker? THAT kinds scares me. It's pretty dark right now. The only characters that I am praying survive this....Angel, Wes (whatever that means for a guy who is already dead), Connor, Fred/Illyria, Lorne and Spike. Everybody else, although it doesn't leave a lot, can die, without breaking my heart.
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Post by Emmie on Nov 16, 2008 19:21:13 GMT -5
Brian, please no need to apologize. I still dig it. And I'm open to the idea that I simply off-base on my reading. Just wanted to share my thoughts. All great points, enisy. I think my perspective on Spike's reaction stems from the belief that witnessing Angel's fate would undercut that jealousy. Cut it off at the knees. Seeing Angel finally getting what he wanted, humanity, and all the vulnerabilities therein. As Angel lies broken, bloody and dying - what is Spike meant to be jealous of? I think that Spike might move past that initial, knee-jerk jealousy to realize that he doesn't want what Angel has. That this gift came at a high price and he'd be aware of the irony in that moment. Spike's mentality of "there's always consequences" ( Afterlife) and being 'careful what you wish for' when it comes to magic. I think he'd be aware of the irony, how this wish was twisted around to bite Angel in the ass. My perspective relates to the debate fans have had over whether Spike actually wants to be human or not. I've always believed that Spike sought the shanshu for the glory and to spite Angel, not the reward of humanity. Spike wants to be "the one, you git" ( Destiny) while Angel just wants to be forgiven, to be human again. This idea that Spike would reject the reward of humanity is supported by an interview with Fury where he discussed a story proposal where Spike receives the shanshu because Angel signed it away in NFA, but ultimately Spike doesn't want it. ( enisy, I know you have that quote somewhere So if it's not humanity that Spike is jealous of, then it's the glory and spiting Angel. Spike likes the fight and I have trouble seeing him want to spite Angel in this state. The glory? Not very present right now. So here's what I'm guilty of thinking really - that Spike would feel more than just jealousy in that moment, that he'd have a deeper reaction and maybe even show some grace in the face of Angel's unimaginable suffering. That he might feel this moment of solidarity and pity with Angel, reminiscent of those quiet moments when they bonded like at the end of Damage. I had a feeling it would be an unpopular opinion, but oh well. It's what I think.
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Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by Enisy on Nov 16, 2008 19:46:33 GMT -5
I think my perspective on Spike's reaction stems from the belief that witnessing Angel's fate would undercut that jealousy. Cut it off at the knees. Seeing Angel finally getting what he wanted, humanity, and all the vulnerabilities therein. As Angel lies broken, bloody and dying - what is Spike meant to be jealous of? Eh, of course he'd be jealous. It's been a constant competition between these two ever since Spike caught him in bed with Drusilla. Vulnerabilities be damned, Spike probably just saw Angel one-upping him again in that moment. Oh, this debate again... I'll leave it be for the time being, but I'll show you the quote you mentioned: - David Fury pitched an ending to Joss for Angel, in which Angel wins the Shanshu and then "gives" it to Spike. This enrages Spike as not only doesn't he want it but he hates that Angel gives it to him, even though he could now go to be with Buffy. (Fan Report, Sacramento Q&As, 2005)
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Post by Emmie on Nov 16, 2008 20:33:34 GMT -5
I think my perspective on Spike's reaction stems from the belief that witnessing Angel's fate would undercut that jealousy. Cut it off at the knees. Seeing Angel finally getting what he wanted, humanity, and all the vulnerabilities therein. As Angel lies broken, bloody and dying - what is Spike meant to be jealous of? Eh, of course he'd be jealous. It's been a constant competition between these two ever since Spike caught him in bed with Drusilla. Vulnerabilities be damned, Spike probably just saw Angel one-upping him again in that moment. Yeah, of course jealousy is a huge part of the competitive spirit between them. But still...jealous of Angel right now? Eh.
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Post by michellebuffyfest on Nov 16, 2008 20:47:20 GMT -5
I thought Spike's dialogue was spot on and I loved how Angel could read him so well. I was more taken by Gunn's reaction to taking a breath in the time slip. His character is so dynamic and his situation is so heartbreaking.
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trunkstheslayer
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Post by trunkstheslayer on Nov 16, 2008 23:21:34 GMT -5
So, little thought about the "Dead people come back to life in the building".
Back in season five, that alternate dimension where Lindsey and later Gunn were being tortured. Remember? They had their damn hearts ripped out, only to heal instantly. Think it's got some role here? Same kind of mojo?
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darthrosenberg9
Potential Slayer
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Post by darthrosenberg9 on Nov 16, 2008 23:32:39 GMT -5
That's plausible----but wasn't that only the pre-arranged deaths that were undone? Spike was obviously not on a loop like Lindsey or Gunn, right?
On another note, though: is anyone else starting to get really confused by the timeslips? I hope they've got a BIG explanation coming....because I'm not the least bit clear on how they work.
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Post by Wyndam on Nov 17, 2008 0:04:56 GMT -5
I decided to stay away from the preview this time. I have a hellish week in school, so I am really looking forward to picking up this issue as a nice break from my school work. Looks like the preview is garnering some discussion, so I am even more excited now. ;D
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Malsad
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Post by Malsad on Nov 17, 2008 12:46:07 GMT -5
the time slips are Illyria if that was what you were asking 2 days (i think)
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Vail
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Post by Vail on Nov 17, 2008 20:56:51 GMT -5
Somebody can point out whom is the voice in the 2nd picture of the 2nd page of the preview?
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Post by stephenmooney on Nov 19, 2008 5:20:35 GMT -5
I can! The speech balloon is coming from the wrong character, probably my fault. It's supposed to be a teeny groo on his steed flying over the hotel and being surrounded by the black dragons that says it, but it's mistakingly eminating from the miscellaneous demon character who's stabbing one of the Spikettes in the foreground of the panel. Sorry bout the confusion!
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Post by angeliclestat on Nov 19, 2008 11:41:08 GMT -5
Man am I lookin forward to this issue. Only one more day for me now:)
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Whedon Fan
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Post by Whedon Fan on Nov 19, 2008 16:38:48 GMT -5
It's Illyria it's true form. I had a hunch this would happen eventually! *reference image is from Season 5's ShellsOh I can't wait this is going to be good! Did you all see the sneek peak to her true form in Spike AFter The Fall. So this is out this week is it? Or ahs the date been changed.
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Post by Emmie on Nov 19, 2008 16:55:24 GMT -5
Whedon Fan, it's out today in the US. Completely and utterly spoilerific summary of After the Fall #14 (don't read if you have the opportunity to pick up this issue, if not...): Picking up where the preview left off, Gunn looks over his shoulder to see the Fighter Jet-Dragon hybrids flying past him to swarm around the building where Angel is dying. Spike, Connor and Wesley have taken a dying Angel down into the (what I'll call) room of resurrection. Spike kicking in the door has apparently disrupted the time-loop which resets to five minutes ago. Problem? Angel's injuries happened more than five minutes ago.
As this failure is sinking in, an army of red demons break through the outer wall, who number in the "thousands. Each one a conduit to the Senior Partners." They each take turns (a la The Furies) being the mouth-piece for the Senior Partners, expressing that it cost too much to create Hell-A just to let Angel die now. They easily overpower Connor, Wesley and Spike (no contest) and carry Angel away.
Meanwhile, Gunn has taken Illyria to this demon altar standing in front of a mountain of demon carcasses. He rests Illyria on the altar and straps her down, ordering his minion to bring Betta George to him. Gunn explains, "You say you're Fred. If it's true, you're in the clear." Not-quite tentacles rise out of the altar to strap down Illyria, but before Gunn can begin the red-demon-soldiers enter carrying Angel. They reveal that this magical creation was always meant for Angel and that's why they'd had Gunn build it. Angel lies on the altar and is engulfed in these not-quite tentacles that morph into a cover over his body.
Wesley finds Illyria (in Fred's guise) lying down. Illyria explains how she tried to *be* Fred, but couldn't make it real. She expresses grief that she can't be Fred and that Wesley isn't coming back. This grief overcomes her and she reveals that Gunn's methods of returning her to her true form were wrong, but his reasoning wasn't. Tentacles break out of Illyria's body as she transforms back to her true form. No longer a "she", but an "it". Illyria kills the red-demon-soldiers, whacking Spike out of the way without fatally wounding him.
Angel has finished healing and breaks free of the altar while Illyria rises and breaks through the roof, Gunn happily exclaiming this is what he's "been waiting for." Wesley approaches Angel and is reassured that Angel has been restored to his human state, not his vampiric one. As Angel starts worrying about what happened to Connor, Gunn stabs him from behind with a slate of wood through his left shoulder. Time-slips have been occuring periodically after Illyria retained her true form.
Gunn says he'll kill Angel after they get "back before the fall" and calls for George, telling him to get in Illyria's mind and tell her to reverse time. With prodding from Gunn, George attempts to enter Illyria's consciousness. Meanwhile, Angel is working up the will to kill Gunn. Two panels of pure white follow and then George makes it inside Illyria's mind, but she's too angry to listen to his instructions. Her mind is made up. She doesn't want to turn back time. She wants to end existence. Gunn says with a smile, "That'll work."
________________________________________________________
So Illyria = Dark Willow in Grave apparently. Too much pain and suffering, better to end existence than to experience this emotional torture that she has no control over. Perhaps that's the greatest pain, that Illyria has no control over what she feels.
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Whedon Fan
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Post by Whedon Fan on Nov 19, 2008 16:59:10 GMT -5
Whedon Fan, it's out today in the US. Spoilerific summary of After the Fall #14: Picking up where the preview left off, Gunn looks over his shoulder to see the Fighter Jet-Dragon hybrids flying past him to swarm around the building where Angel is dying. Spike, Connor and Wesley have taken a dying Angel down into the (what I'll call) room of resurrection. Spike kicking in the door has apparently disrupted the time-loop which resets to five minutes ago. Problem? Angel's injuries happened more than five minutes ago.
As this failure is sinking in, an army of red demons break through the outer wall, who number in the "thousands. Each one a conduit to the Senior Partners." They each take turns (a la The Furies) being the mouth-piece for the Senior Partners, expressing that it cost too much to create Hell-A just to let Angel die now. They easily overpower Connor, Wesley and Spike (no contest) and carry Angel away.
Meanwhile, Gunn has taken Illyria to this demon altar standing in front of a mountain of demon carcasses. He rests Illyria on the altar and straps her down, ordering his minion to bring Betta George to him. Gunn explains, "You say you're Fred. If it's true, you're in the clear." Not-quite tentacles rise out of the altar to strap down Illyria, but before Gunn can begin the red-demon-soldiers enter carrying Angel. They reveal that this magical creation was always meant for Angel and that's why they'd had Gunn build it. Angel lies on the altar and is engulfed in these not-quite tentacles that morph into a cover over his body.
Wesley finds Illyria (in Fred's guise) lying down. Illyria explains how she tried to *be* Fred, but couldn't make it real. She expresses grief that she can't be Fred and that Wesley isn't coming back. This grief overcomes her and she reveals that Gunn's methods of returning her to her true form were wrong, but his reasoning wasn't. Tentacles break out of Illyria's body as she transforms back to her true form. No longer a "she", but an "it". Illyria kills the red-demon-soldiers, whacking Spike out of the way without fatally wounding him.
Angel has finished healing and breaks free of the altar while Illyria rises and breaks through the roof, Gunn happily exclaiming this is what he's "been waiting for." Wesley approaches Angel and is reassured that Angel has been restored to his human state, not his vampiric one. As Angel starts worrying about what happened to Connor, Gunn stabs him from behind with a slate of wood through his left shoulder. Time-slips have been occuring periodically after Illyria retained her true form.
Gunn says he'll kill Angel after they get "back before the fall" and calls for George, telling him to get in Illyria's mind and tell her to reverse time. With prodding from Gunn, George attempts to enter Illyria's consciousness. Meanwhile, Angel is working up the will to kill Gunn. Two panels of pure white follow and then George makes it inside Illyria's mind, but she's too angry to listen to his instructions. Her mind is made up. She doesn't want to turn back time. She wants to end existence. Gunn says with a smile, "That'll work."
________________________________________________________
So Illyria = Dark Willow in Grave apparently. Too much pain and suffering, better to end existence than to experience this emotional torture that she has no control over. Perhaps that's the greatest pain, that Illyria has no control over what she feels. Oh yeah! That means it's out tomorrow for me. I have been all confused and stuff with the dates. I'm from Scotland so I have to wait a day later.Oh well I'm now exiting the forum so I don't get spoiled on anything. See you all hear tomorrow for a good all rant about the issue. Byeeeeeeeeeee
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Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by Enisy on Nov 20, 2008 9:41:10 GMT -5
unclespike:They time-skipped to "five minutes ago", and he was wondering if he had any cigarettes at the time. Anyway, my spoilerific review: And the verdict iiiiis: "Oh man, that's epic". (IDW regulars will get the reference.)
I can only imagine how much more epic the ending would have been if we hadn't gotten those spoilery covers with Illyria's true form months back... but even so, there's a silver lining to our pre-spoiled condition, which is that the sheer originality of the storyline shines through. I browse all the main Buffy forums (and a few minor ones), so I'd heard speculation after speculation based on the aforementioned covers -- Fred would be restored to her body through the Resurrection Room and inadvertently release Illyria, Wesley had made an agreement about Fred with the Senior Partners that would come to fruition here, the cast would have to make a choice between Illyria and Fred, etc. -- and they were all off the mark. Needless to say I like Brian's version better, not least because it gave us one of the best Wesley/Illyria scenes in canon...
"There you are." "Fred -" "I tried, Wesley. I tried to be." "I know you did." "I don't think... I don't think she's here."
It's no secret that the Wesley/Illyria relationship tugs at my heartstrings like no other Buffyverse 'ship save Spike/Buffy... and I actually got a little teary here, which is very rare for me. (Brian, you weren't kidding when you said that Wesley and Illyria had more Big Moments to come.) I'm extremely glad that the Spike: After the Fall Issue #4 revelation about Illyria still holds true, and that it was addressed in an equally (if not more) emotional scene here. That these Fred-centric time-skips were a conscious attempt on Illyria's part to recapture what Fred had with Wesley, and perhaps even revive him, is a very organic development of her covert jealousy and longing in Season 5 of Angel, and the perfect icing to my recent Wesley/Illyria marathon. Even non-fans have to acknowledge that this takes Illyria's already-complex characterization to a new, higher level (and, by doing so, takes the plot to a new, higher level). This ups the stakes.
I can only say "thank you". The only complaint anyone can have about the Wesley/Illyria moment is that it should have been longer.
Now, the payoff of that scene suffers a lot from the colourist's insistent pinks and reds, but ignoring that, I'm rather fond of the chaotic, almost surrealistic feel of it all. ("Do you see?!" -- "See - what?") It felt right for the magnitude of the event. Also happy that Betta George is revealed to be more than a "filler" character, for realsies. I'll be interested to see what ammo the mandatory haters will find for their comments now. (I do hope the pacing in the remaining issues won't be as fast as it was in the final scene of this issue, though. It worked well as a one-time thing, but it has the potential of getting annoying, if used more.)
Another highlight of this issue was Spike learning about the Shanshu (shock, nervousness and jealousy all wrapped up in Lynch-quality dialogue and body language), as well as the Gunn/Illyria sequence. Illyria and Gunn have displayed the most interesting changes in the series so far, in my eyes, and that's evident in the panels they share here. Was particularly moved by Illyria's switch from her Fred-mannerisms to her usual self's honor and cold pride ("I enjoyed sparring with that dragon. It came close to being an equal"), Gunn's little speech about masks (his "teeth and Klingon brow mask" versus Illyria's Fred-mask, what a way to put it), and his breath in the time-skip. Another thing that was interesting to me is that he seems to harbour a resentment towards Angel's "Chosen One" title ("They want... well, they want who they always want. The one everybody always wants") -- reminded me of Spike for a second there, with his decades under Angel's shadow and his underdog status re: Shanshu and Buffy alike.
I've come to expect this level of awesomeness from Brian by now, but I was surprised how much I loved Mooney's art in this issue. Is he getting better, or am I getting more used to his style? The only thing I didn't like was his uniform rendition of the conduits (and the colourist is partly to blame for that, too). Still, you can't argue with panels like "I don't want to hear it! ..." (Spike), "I need Illyria" (Gunn), "Her memories haunt me" (Wesley/Illyria-as-Fred), "Charles tried to bring out ..." (Wesley), "That'll work" (Gunn).
Where do we go from here?
No idea, but I at least hope that Illyria survives, that there are no easy "saves" like a pre-Not Fade Away reset, that everything comes with a price, that Wesley and Illyria get more interaction (and I'll join the LiveJournal chorus in wishing for a kiss), that the next issues cut down on the spelling/grammar errors, and that the universe doesn't go kablooie.
Rating: 8.5/10 (might be my third favourite After the Fall issue, after Issue 4 of Spike: After the Fall and Issue 12 of Angel: After the Fall)
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trunkstheslayer
Potential Slayer
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Post by trunkstheslayer on Nov 20, 2008 11:14:21 GMT -5
Decent issue. Not my favorite, but still high ranking. Kinda feels like a set-up issue (like 17 of Season 8).
My only question though really: Illyria reverting to its true form....how? Just, will power? Has she always been able to do this? Just because she's in hell? And if it's just because of hell, why hasn't she done it before now anyway?
Suddenly have a sinking feeling for Connor but I can't imagine.
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Ethros
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Post by Ethros on Nov 20, 2008 16:13:04 GMT -5
Good issue.
I take it Groo's reference to "May 19th" is nod to when Not Fade Away first aired in 2004?
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Post by Brian Lynch on Nov 20, 2008 16:18:39 GMT -5
Yes, you're right. And now I have to type this to stretch it out so it's long enough to post. Bumblebees.
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