bullseye
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 33
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Post by bullseye on Jan 22, 2009 12:58:49 GMT -5
This was a GREAT issue but theres one thing i dont get. WHY did Wolfram and Hart have to go back in time to before the fall to bring back angel? couldnt they just go back in time a few minutes? or a few days? and when they did bring back angel and his friends to the alley couldnt wolfram and hart just send everything to hell again right there and then? ?
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 22, 2009 13:11:41 GMT -5
I'm gonna wait for the HC's and actually reading it to make a real judgement, but I am kind of skeptical about the resetting of all of the deaths that happened. As evil as it sounds, I was enjoying that the Angel team was being thinned out as I prefer the small group dynamic.
It's interesting though, hearing all of this material. Just what will happen in the last issue?
Anyhoo, well done Brian Lynch, and thank you.
*goes off to order the Lynch Spike stories*
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Neil
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 187
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Post by Neil on Jan 22, 2009 13:43:53 GMT -5
I agree with henz. The resetting of the deaths is basically the only thing I´m complainting about, when it comes to the "reset".
Beside that Brian Lynch did very good job on the whole series. I loved it from the first issue. That´s why I was so surprised of altering the deaths because it takes a little bit the dramatic tense.
Especially when Angel was supposed to be a series about "everyone in danger" (the death of doyle for example).
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Jan 22, 2009 13:53:16 GMT -5
I enjoyed reading this issue but now I'm feeling a little confused by the logic of the whole retcon-thingy (not really a retcon but you know what I mean). I get that the Senior Partners set the timeline back to "Not Fade Away" and prevented the Fall of Los Angeles from happening to avoid Angel's death, but is that it? Hell A happened in the first place to punish Angel for his defiance, but now that their punishment backfired, are they really going to let Angel get away that easily? Seems uncharacteristically nice of them, to allow him to have a "happy ending" with his son back alive, etc. How are the Senior Partners going to ensure that Angel does fulfill the Shanshu Prophecy to their liking? I don't understand why the W&H building is completely gone, that makes NO sense to me but I'm guessing (hoping) it will be explained next issue?
I'm not quite sure how I feel about the time-wind. I absolutely loved last issue, because I love a good body count when it's done right. Having Groo, Illyria, and Connor all die in the same issue along with hundreds of anonymous victims was the perfect Buffyverse season finale IMO. Especially Angel, which is especially unafraid to kill off it's most important characters. Having a magic spell bring everyone (incuding Gunn, Gwen, CordyDragon, Jeremy, and Kate who as far as I'm concerned died in First Night) back to life for a happy-ever-after seems like a bit of a cop out? Like in Doctor Who, where they kill off an important character like Jenny or River Song and then have a "Oh look kids, it's okay, they didn't die after all" scene before the end credits. Which is fine in Doctor Who, but Angel is not Doctor Who. I like Angel to be dark and violent, full of pain and loss and despair. That said, despite my reservations, I couldn't help but love Angel and Connor's reunion, what with Connor's very Buffyesque "hey, I'm not dead" casual attitude and Angel crying. I think I'm going to withhold judgement on the timewind until next issue; who knows, I was annoyed when they pulled that trick in Doctor Who with "Last of the Time Lords" and now that's one of my favourite episodes.
More positive comments; as has already been stated, the art was gorgeous this issue, with very vibrant colouring. Some of the effects were especially impressive, despite my above complaints about resurrected characters, I was thrilled by CordyDragon's dramatic entrance in the alleyway. I also liked the civillains of L.A. remembering the past few months and regarding Angel as their hero. That ties quite nicely (deliberately or coincidently?) into Buffy Season Eight and explains why L.A. is a) restored to normal and b) fully aware and accepting of the supernatural, particularly vampires. Angel being a publicly embraced celebrity superhero circles back to "City of", where Angel was a hermit and Doyle forced him to get in touch with humanity. My only concern is how everything will be resolved with only one issue to go. As someone who is not particularly enthusiastic about Aftermath and doesn't view it as canon, I want a definite conclusion to the entire Angel series in #17 (albeit one in keeping with the "always keep fighting" themes of "NFA").
Sorry if my comments have sounded overly negative, I want to emphasise that I did really enjoy this issue, it's just a big change and I'll need to wait until the dust settles to develop a more concrete opinion.
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illyria
Common Vampire
[Mo0:9]
Posts: 66
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Post by illyria on Jan 22, 2009 13:58:58 GMT -5
What a fantastic Read, I was so happy when i saw Illyria back in Freds body and loving the human personality she has developed along the way. The issue of the reset is intresting, but i am curious as to why wolfram and hart would choose the alleyway to reset too! But hey we got Cordy the Dragon back lol, and Gwen is around somewhere, just hope her and Nina find there way back in the Aftermath team. Really looking forward to whats to come.... Thanks Brian the best issue so far you have done an amazing Job!!
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
Posts: 684
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Post by iloveromy on Jan 22, 2009 14:54:51 GMT -5
I've been thinking a lot about this issue. I understand that the events did happen and that the characters and citizens of LA remember it, but the reversal doesn't feel like it was the logical solution to undoing Hell-A. I dont know what that conclusion is yet. I am going to need to go back and reread everything because I'm just not remembering if all the groundwork was laid.
My initial reaction is that it if this is it then After The Fall should have been condensed into a four parter where we explore Angel's character in some sort of WHAT IF existential character study. I say this because if Angel is going to have a long lasting continuing storyline then the events of After The Fall are going to be reduced to lines like "that time we were in Wolfram and Hart's reality Faux-Hell". The conclusion has cheapened the story and cheapened my investment of time in the series.
I understand that this will have a long lasting effect on all of the characters involved and I'm positive there will be some satisfying character developments. Also, I know that I am having a fan boy rant and there isn't a point and hopefully some of it comes across. After The Fall for the most part has been pretty phenomenal and to get to this point and to have this happen...I don't feel cheated I just wasn't satisfied is what I think that I'm trying to say.
I know that time heals everything and distance gives us perspective. I will continue to support IDW by purchasing Angel comics. But as far as the "here and now" I want to know why. Why this was the best course of action for the story. Either I am not seeing it or I am just not convinced. I guess time will tell...
Also: Have we gotten our answer about why Spike wasn't in Gunn's visions? Why he wasn't a part of whatever was going to happen? We were supposed to believe that Spike was going to die right?
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Post by Brian Lynch on Jan 22, 2009 17:52:01 GMT -5
We address it next issue, the whole Spike-in-the-visions of it all.
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Post by sagewoman on Jan 22, 2009 18:13:07 GMT -5
First, WOW! Second, WOW! Third, this issue knocked my socks off. Angel: After the Fall #15 started a trend of perfection (both with the art and writing), and this issue just keeps on rolling. With the preview, I started to prepare myself for a reset of some kind. It seemed like that was the direction the story was going, and the "reset" we got in this issue was pretty damn brilliant. Only it isn't a reset, not in the slightest. Just trying to wrap my head around what we find out in the last half of this issue is nearly impossible. The characters went through so much in Hell (half of them died), and now that they are all back, with a complete recollection about what happened, is great and just bleeds a tidal wave of future story potential. So. Much. Happened. Angel and Gunn's chat/mauling was spectacular, epic and exciting, and then two pages later, L.A. is back to normal. Wesley's plan worked, and Wesley is gone. Again. Not sure how I feel about that, but it just wasn't possible for him to stick around. Wonder if Angel will try and retrieve his body again? The dialogue in the alley as soon as L.A. returned to normal was superb, probably some of my favorite in the series. I was really happy to see Illyria again, and I think that out of all that happened, Hell-A had the most impact on her (although Gunn and Connor went through a ton as well). Just the fact that she feels remorse for her role in killing Fred made me tear up. One of my favorite moments of the series, easily. Angel is a vampire again. I figured this is what would happen if Angel forced Wolfram & Hart to fix his timeline, and I am okay with it. I was also surprised when Angel stopped fighting to find Gunn. With all of the excitement of being back in the alley, I completely forgot that Gunn was even there, and human. With all of his Hell-A memories intact, I can't wait to see the effect this has on him (assuming he survives, which he better!). All of this and I am not even to Connor yet, what a packed issue. Angel bursting into tears at the sight of Connor was amazing, and my favorite part of this issue. I can't wait for more interaction between the two of them, whether in After the Fall #17 or Aftermath, if Connor continues on in the series. With Buffy: Season 8 #21 out recently, I noticed how much this issue really gels with what happened in #21. I was disapointed that there wasn't much of a reaction from the public when Harmony bit A. Dick but now it all makes sense. Whether this collaboration, of sorts, was intended - who knows. But it really, really works well, and I love it. The dialogue from the hospital staff and L.A. public was really awesome. Angel is a public hero now, how cool is that? Brian said that After the Fall would have a definite ending, while leaving the story open to continue, and he was right. The sheer possibility of future stories is insane. Will Lorne, Groo, Nina, Gwen come and find Angel and Co.? There is some great potential for Connor and Gwen (yay Gwonnor), as well as some redemption on Gwen's part (Illyria and Gunn too). I am thrilled that we have more Angel to look forward to. Before we got the After the Fall #16 preview, I think a lot of us were worried that Angel would be going into Aftermath alone (or at least with Spike in tow), but now that is certainly not the case. We have a lot to look forward to now, and I am so thrilled at all of the possibilities. Going to bring this back to Wesley, as all this chatter about future possibilities is rather depressing on the "Wesley front." Is it possible for a character to have two perfect exits? His final words to Spike were heart wrenching, just like his final scene with Illyria in Not Fade Away. While I definitely can wish that there is more in store for Wesley, I just don't see it happening. The Wolfram & Hart L.A. branch is gone, so there is no need for a conduit or watchdog, which was Wesley's original purpose in Hell-A. I also have to wonder what effect this will have on Angel's future adventures. Despite their past, Wesley was Angel's closest friend. Angel relied on Wesley to figure out what to do. Hell, it was Wesley who figured out that Angel had to die in order to set things right. When Aftermath roles around, I am probably most interested in how Angel does without Wesley there to support him. Angel survived most of his life without Wesley's help, so I have faith he will be fine without him, but it does make me a little bummed that this could very well be the end of the Angel/Wesley relationship. Boy did I babble, and I didn't even really talk about the art. I'll sum it up: perfect. Angel: After the Fall: perfect. ditto! Really - I know I could not have said it better - or even equal to Wyndam. Thank you Brian!
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Post by birdandbear on Jan 22, 2009 18:38:40 GMT -5
I'm just floored. It's perfect. Perfect! I put it off until today, partly because I wanted to finish re-reading the entire series for the big conclusion, and partly because I had that queasy dread that the last several issues have given me - I was afraid to find out. But now that I've read it (twice, without pause) I'm totally, daffily ecstatic. The reset: What reset?? This is in no way a reset of anything. Angeliclestat made an excellent point about time flowing differently in different dimensions, and everything that happened in LA occurring in a pocket hell dimension. Angel spent 100 years in a hell dimension once before, while only months passed in his home world. This time all of LA was gone for months that took up only an instant in 'real' time. It happened so quickly that the rest of the world never even noticed, but the time ratio is very similar. Everything that happened in Hell A still happened, and all of it's chock full of bold new consequences. The events that happened in hell changed every single person who experienced them, and that in turn will change the world. As for our heroes, I couldn't be more delighted that they're alive, and presented with all kinds of exciting new ways to grow. I have no doubt Gunn will make it. Why kill him when it'll be so much more fun to watch him deal with all the nasty things he did? And Gwen will also have some atoning to do, as well as some awkward reconciling with Connor. And Angel has to face the horrors of being in the limelight, while finally getting to have a real, loving relationship with his son (at least for a little while, please?) There are so many amazing thing about this issue it's just staggering. I love Angel's description of his son as the love of his life. And the juxtaposition of the two panels on the first page; the birth and the death of Connor - Fred's legs visible in the first one, a poignant reminder. I love Gunn's lucid moment of respect for the grief he's caused, and Spike's adamant " Not now. Leave them be." And my very favorite: "Your world ended! You're beaten and your tired and your future is hopeless! That's when you stand up. That's when you fight back." - in a nutshell, why Angel is my favorite character in the verse, and my greatest personal hero. I teared up on the first panel and pretty much stayed that way throughout. This was such an emotional issue, and I too felt like it lasted forever. The tender final farewell between Wesley and Angel, and Wesley's quiet relief at passing on. Spike dropping his weapon, utterly and nakedly dismayed, to run to Angel's side - "What the hell is that?". Gunn begging to die, and Angel's compassionate face as he denies him. The tilted, off balance panels of Angel bursting into tears and grabbing onto Connor, clutching for all he's worth, like any parent would clutch at their child snatched back from the jaws of death. The pulse pounding adrenaline when I realized that this was it! After all this time, we finally get to see exactly what happens in the alley! Oh. frikkin.' squee!!! And for once, for now, a happy ending. I could quit reading now and be totally satisfied. But I won't. And oh my God, the art!! It's really difficult for me to separate the art from the writing. Ever, really, but especially in this issue - it all just works together so seamlessly, but there is some gorgeous stuff going on here that I can't help but goggle at. The beautiful colors, and all that pretty pretty fire, and magma! How cool is that? Angel and Gunn alone, Hobbit style on an island of rock in a sea of magma. And the look of peace on Angel's face as he drops his sword for the killing blow is just stunning. And the spread that follows.....livid, beautiful and so damn fluid I wanted to squirm away from the page before that follow through could lop off my fingers. And did anyone else notice the shadow of Angel's head imposed over the blood spatter on Gunn's shirt? Brilliant! And the other spread, in the alley, - "I'll live." - is positively electrifying. I could (obviously) go on rhapsodizing, but I'll try to wind it down for now. There is one more thing though. Angel has been human, and died as one. He has lived until he died. Is it possible the Shanshu prophecy has been fulfilled? I never thought his being human in Hell A had anything to do with the Shanshu, but now I think the terms of the prophecy have been technically fulfilled. "It's his reward" was just Wesley's interpretation, not necessarily correct. I may be totally off, but I think it might make the story more interesting to toss the prophecy. To have the future wide open again. And anyway, what more does Angel need with a reward? He has a son who loves him. I can't wait to read the denouemont, and the Aftermath. This reboot opens up whole new vistas of storytelling and character development. I expect Gunn's spankin' new struggle will be all kinds of dark and ugly. As buffyversefanatic pointed out, he'll be dealing with the sins of his demon just like our souled vamps, except without the vamp part. And Gunn's always been so certain, so black and white in his viewpoints, he's not really familiar with self-doubt, not to mention self-loathing. At least not until he killed Fred. And this time, he doesn't have the luxury of locking himself in a hell dimension to suffer for his crimes. He'll have to face them, and that's where Angel really shines - walking souls back from the precipice of their own evil. I look forward to that relationship. I'm also dying to find out Wolfram and Hart's next move, after having their a$$es so thoroughly handed to them.
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Post by Wyndam on Jan 22, 2009 18:45:59 GMT -5
Brian posted his thoughts on issue #16 over at his BLOG[/u][/url]. He ties the whole series together in a nice way (and we still have one more issue left to look forward to even more concluding-closurey-goodness). Great read!
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Post by VampSlayer on Jan 22, 2009 18:50:59 GMT -5
I just read this issue. I REALLY enjoyed it! ;D It was pretty well done! I DID almost crap my pants when I saw Angel get his head cut off. xD I must say though,...The way they got LA back to normal was I bit... Wierd... lol But still neat. I am SOOOOO glad everyone is NOT DEAD now. Too bad Wes is gone. I almost cried during this issue... TWICE. The part when Illyria finally says she is guilty for taking Fred's life. I have always loved Illyria, mostly because she makes me feel close to Fred still... But now I think I really like her just as ILLYRIA too. That part really touched me. xD I sound so corny. lol And also the pasrt when Angel sees Connor. Both of those parts were awesome. I never really liked Gunn, so I'm kinda mad he is good, and alive. xD I would rate this issue a 9 out of 10. It was awesome. One question : If The Senior Partners put time back... Why was everyone remember about hell? I can see maybe Angel remembering... But I guess it makes sense.
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Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Attack Attack!
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 684
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Post by Malsad on Jan 22, 2009 19:38:50 GMT -5
because it wasnt a re-do it it was a time skip
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BenTaylor3907
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Illyria's Qwa'ha Xahn
~ Listening To Fear ~[Mo0:25]
Posts: 2,958
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Post by BenTaylor3907 on Jan 22, 2009 21:47:55 GMT -5
I'm so excited. I'm going to another comic shop since my current one always has their comics come in late. Tomorrow, this issue will be in my hands and I will finally know what everyone is talking about, because I'm confused. lol. I didn't read most of the spoilers but there were a few. I couldn't help it, it was right there and I wanted to get my Angel fix for the day. *breakdances*
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witcher
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
Homicidal Bunny
Willow fan forever[Mo0:30]
Posts: 711
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Post by witcher on Jan 23, 2009 10:42:21 GMT -5
WOOOOOOOW this was an excellent issue!!! I just loved it!
In the beginning I was little confused about why W&H had to reverse time back to the point before the Fall but then when I got the fact that all that Hell thing lasted only a minute it was clear. Also it made that scene when George is sending a message to his friends, and they see LA normal, more clear.
I love the fact that Connor is not dead. Also one of the best moments in this issue, also for me the best one in all of ATF is when Illyria feel guilty over Fred's death, and the fact that she got the joke... to funny for words.
I am also glad that magic is more public now in ATF as it is becoming in S8. That just gives me a sense of connection between the two comics.
Now I can't wait for Aftermath to start!!!
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 656
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Post by Nicholas on Jan 23, 2009 14:16:46 GMT -5
Let me start by saying how wonderful this issue really was. The colors were magnificent and so much more vibrant and fitting than the last issues have been. It made the dramatic effect much more powerful when reading.
I completely understand the reset. When they say reset, they don't mean go back in time, they mean go into another timeline. When Angel and his gang were fighting in after the fall, W&H shifted everyone into the hell dimension which moves incredibly slower slower than our timeline. Similar to Angels death in Buffy or Kens Hell in Buffy. So when Angel died, they pulled him out of the hell dimension and put him right back to where he last stood in NFA. Meaning all the people that died in Hell, never died in the present timeline. Comprende?
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Post by faithnspike on Jan 23, 2009 16:14:39 GMT -5
I hope and think that Wes is not truly gone. The comment about Spike looking after their friend concluded with “we both will”. Also he still has a contract with W and H so they can bring him back anytime or as we saw with Darla they can bring back the dead if they want to screw with Wes.
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Post by faithnspike on Jan 23, 2009 16:24:51 GMT -5
Oh and please no recon on Gunn dieing. I know he never died on the show but you knew he was about to Illerea told us that he was definitely going to die. I can’t imagine how much I would hate Angel without Wes and Gunn becoming his new best friend. Angel needs a human partner and I don’t see Gunn taking Wes’s place. I have never been a Gunn fan maybe it is because Wes is my favorite character ever (except Faith)
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Post by Wyndam on Jan 23, 2009 16:35:00 GMT -5
I hope and think that Wes is not truly gone. The comment about Spike looking after their friend concluded with “we both will”. Also he still has a contract with W and H so they can bring him back anytime or as we saw with Darla they can bring back the dead if they want to screw with Wes. While I would love there to be some way that Wesley can return, I just don't see any plausible way for that to happen. The L.A. branch of W&H is gone, and they therefore don't need Wesley there anymore as a middle man. We don't even know yet if W&H is even in this dimension any more. If W&H did bring Wesley back as a ghost, again, it would seem redundant (AtF #1) and I don't see any purpose for it that makes it work. The "we both will" comment basically means that Wesley will be looking after Illyria in the afterlife, not that he will be around any more to do so, which is why he instructs Spike to look after her as well. Don't get me wrong, Wesley is my favorite character ever and I would love for him to stick around. I don't even know how Angel will be able to work without Wesley, as they both depended on each other quite a lot, but I guess we will just have to see. Either way, it is depressing, but in terms of the story, there is just no plausible way for Wesley to come back. Unless Brian has more curve balls up his sleeve (one can hope).
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Post by Brian Lynch on Jan 23, 2009 16:53:43 GMT -5
The line about Wesley and Spike keeping an eye on Illyria was referring to the fact that their memories of Fred are in her noggin.
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alycat7
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
Posts: 752
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Post by alycat7 on Jan 23, 2009 17:02:49 GMT -5
This issue raises so many questions for me, I dont even know where to start.
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