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Post by Wyndam on Jan 23, 2009 17:09:42 GMT -5
The line about Wesley and Spike keeping an eye on Illyria was referring to the fact that their memories of Fred are in her noggin. Oh cool, I didn't make that connect when I read the issue. It is nice to think about how that will affect Illyria from now on. We certainly got a taste of that in #16, but it is nice to know that Illyria has a system of "check and balances", in a way, in place now. She knows exactly how Wesley and Spike felt about Fred, and will attempt to honor that, out of her remorse for taking Fred out of their lives. Really neat.
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Post by Whedon Fan on Jan 23, 2009 17:18:14 GMT -5
One of the best Buffyverse comics I have read so far. This might change as we still have a lot of issues for Buffy season 8 but so far this has been amazing. After The Fall really ended on a nice note. The fight scene at the ned was brilliant we finally got to see the alley fight. I don't know if you or Joss had intended on holding out with that and then giving us it at the end but that's what it felt like to me turned the page and said "THE ALLEY FIGHT" Fantastic issue with some very solid writing and art. Not to keen on Angel's line to Wesley "Rogue Demon Hunter" come on Brian. I did however really like the mention of Angel's heart beating fast whenever he was on the dragon and now he's a vampire again he just feels nothing. Also got the same sort of drawing from isseu 1 except the city was normal again. Not to sure how I feel about Angel and the gang being famous I would have much rathered a few people walking up to him and asking about him and then in classic Angel he just says either "I'm Angel I beat the bad guys" OR "It doesn't matter who I am just go home" and then he leaves and walks away into the shadow. I'm sure everyone has their own little opinions but over all After The Fall has been a great experience. I know we still have one more issue but still issue 16 was exceptional, well done Brian and Thank You!
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Jan 23, 2009 17:58:44 GMT -5
I'm sure everyone has their own little opinions but over all After The Fall has been a great experience. I know we still have one more issue but still issue 16 was exceptional, well done Brian and Thank You! I don't know what the next issue (and Aftermath for that matter) can really give as that the rest so the series hasn't..(maybe more Cordy, Fred and Wesley together in heaven, Darla watching over her son, Angel and Connor teaming up together, Gunn dieing in his sleep in hospital, thats all I want to see before this ends.) what ever happens I can't wait!
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Post by VampSlayer on Jan 23, 2009 18:09:23 GMT -5
I'm sure everyone has their own little opinions but over all After The Fall has been a great experience. I know we still have one more issue but still issue 16 was exceptional, well done Brian and Thank You! I don't know what the next issue (and Aftermath for that matter) can really give as that the rest so the series hasn't..(maybe more Cordy, Fred and Wesley together in heaven, Darla watching over her son, Angel and Connor teaming up together, Gunn dieing in his sleep in hospital, thats all I want to see before this ends.) Fred can't be in heaven. Or in hell... Or anywhere. She is gone. Like GONE. Her soul was destroyed to bring Illyria into her body.
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Ethros
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Post by Ethros on Jan 23, 2009 18:15:11 GMT -5
Did I miss something maybe? I know they had help from the dragon, but they defeated the alley army a bit easily no? How did they take down those very tall demons, and that super freakin' huge one?! Illyria got a little mad, but if Hamilton can take her down...
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Jan 23, 2009 18:15:20 GMT -5
I don't know what the next issue (and Aftermath for that matter) can really give as that the rest so the series hasn't..(maybe more Cordy, Fred and Wesley together in heaven, Darla watching over her son, Angel and Connor teaming up together, Gunn dieing in his sleep in hospital, thats all I want to see before this ends.) Fred can't be in heaven. Or in hell... Or anywhere. She is gone. Like GONE. Her soul was destroyed to bring Illyria into her body. Yeah, I don't like that lol.. In season 6 they were going to bring her back (with Illyria) so they can find a way to have her soul in heaven in they want.
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BenTaylor3907
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Post by BenTaylor3907 on Jan 23, 2009 18:19:04 GMT -5
Holy cow! This issue was amazing, my favorite issue yet. Although I was confused at various points. Like the in between time skipping and all that. I guess I’ll just look past that. Wesley went out like an O.G.! So his soul still belongs to Wolfram & Hart? Illyria! I loved having her back in Fred’s body. I didn’t find her true form very attractive, especially with those teeth! The jaws of death. So Gunn was saved. I don’t know how feel about that. I keep telling myself that the human Gunn died in After the Fall and that the demon took over (Turning into a vampire) which caused the whole mess in After the Fall. Should I forgive him? He was and is innocent. Urru’s work was amazing. Absolutely amazing. I found myself to really liking his work. CorDragon is back! Which by the way I loved him flying over L.A. but in the real world. I’m bad at explaining things. Connor survived! I knew he would. Lol. My eyes were teary when I read those panels. So everyone knows Angel and the whole being sent to Hell? Just like Buffy issue 21 when Harmony exposed demons to the public. I hope that plays out well. And the L.A. branch went “poof” and I‘m guessing everyone still in it (Eve). Sorry I’m not going in order. I’m just too hyped up. Illyria’s character keeps on getting more fascinating every time. Kudos to Brian. I saw Angel going out with his head cut off. Poor Wesley, even though Angel changed everything, he’s still in Hell. The love of his life was murdered and his soul is bound to the contract he signed when he went to work for the firm. So when I got it today, I had a choice between Garner’s and Urru’s cover. I found myself being drawn to Urru’s. I can’t wait to read the last issue of After the Fall. But then Brian will leave us.
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Post by Wyndam on Jan 23, 2009 18:26:08 GMT -5
I don't know what the next issue (and Aftermath for that matter) can really give as that the rest so the series hasn't..(maybe more Cordy, Fred and Wesley together in heaven, Darla watching over her son, Angel and Connor teaming up together, Gunn dieing in his sleep in hospital, thats all I want to see before this ends.) Fred can't be in heaven. Or in hell... Or anywhere. She is gone. Like GONE. Her soul was destroyed to bring Illyria into her body. We can't really say this is 100% exactly what happened to Fred. All we have is what Dr. Sparrow said about her soul. His main goal in Season 5 was to bring forth Illyria. He told Wes and Gunn exactly what they needed to hear in order for Wesley to stop pursuing resurrecting Fred. For now, we can only speculate about what happened to her. The only thing that we know definitely happened, is that she died. That's it really.
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Post by birdandbear on Jan 23, 2009 19:33:59 GMT -5
I agree Wyndham, I've never taken what Sparrow said seriously. I'm also extremely dubious about the possibility of souls being destroyed at all. If souls can be destroyed, then exactly what is all the contention about? The soul is the battleground between good and evil, Holland said something like that. And if it were possible, why did Jasmine go to all the trouble of hiding Angel's soul, and telling Connor to kill Angelus, and battling Willow? Why not just poof it?
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Jan 23, 2009 20:22:16 GMT -5
I agree Wyndham, I've never taken what Sparrow said seriously. I'm also extremely dubious about the possibility of souls being destroyed at all. If souls can be destroyed, then exactly what is all the contention about? The soul is the battleground between good and evil, Holland said something like that. And if it were possible, why did Jasmine go to all the trouble of hiding Angel's soul, and telling Connor to kill Angelus, and battling Willow? Why not just poof it? That could be very true I really hope they get a better ending together in the after life.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Jan 23, 2009 21:06:10 GMT -5
I agree Wyndham, I've never taken what Sparrow said seriously. I'm also extremely dubious about the possibility of souls being destroyed at all. If souls can be destroyed, then exactly what is all the contention about? The soul is the battleground between good and evil, Holland said something like that. And if it were possible, why did Jasmine go to all the trouble of hiding Angel's soul, and telling Connor to kill Angelus, and battling Willow? Why not just poof it? Fred's soul is completely destroyed, gone, never coming back. That's what made her death so powerful and tragic. What made Wesley's death so tragic, because Illyria was lying to him when she said he'd be where Fred was. Questioning Sparrow's exposition is rationalisation and denial on the part of fans. But then, I'm biased because I love Fred's death. I love that such an amazingly compassionate and strong human being was obliterated, because it makes for a heartbreaking story. Fanwanking some happy ending with Fred and Wesley in heaven just undermines the impact of that story IMO. As for souls being destroyed in general, maybe only something as powerful as Illyria can do something like that. Maybe the Senior Partners and Jasmine just don't have the means, we don't know the science behind it. And how do you know Fred was going to be brought back in season six? Maybe they were going to bring her back the same way they did in AtF, as a manifestation of Illyria? It wouldn't be the only season six concept that was adapted into the comics.
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Post by birdandbear on Jan 24, 2009 0:41:47 GMT -5
Well you're more than welcome to your opinion, and I'll just have to disagree with you. I find the idea of Fred's (or anyone's) soul being obliterated entirely too horrible to countenance. I reserve my right to choose to believe what comforts me, and I want to believe that such a thing's just not possible. If thinking she's gone forever makes her death more poignant for you, I get that. But it's just too sad for me to handle. As for Fred coming back in season 6? I didn't say that, someone else did. But I'd heard rumors about Joss mentioning something like that for years before ATF. Someone out there might know for sure....?
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Post by Emmie on Jan 24, 2009 0:44:42 GMT -5
It's too sad for me to handle too, birdandbear. And souls are immortal, ephemeral creations. I have to believe that her soul left her body as she died.
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Post by wenxina on Jan 24, 2009 1:01:01 GMT -5
Having not read #16 yet, but being thoroughly spoiled about the details, I'd wonder if anyone thought that the notion that Fred's soul may not have been obliterated by the manifestation of Illyria absolves Illyria of some of the guilt she now feels? If Doc Sparrow is to be believed, not only did she kill the girl so loved by all these people, but she also destroyed her essence (ironically, that very essence that she tried to distill throughout AtF, including Spike: AtF). That's gotta weigh doubly on someone's tentacled shoulders.
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Post by patxshand on Jan 24, 2009 18:17:00 GMT -5
I don't believe in the destruction of souls. They don't call 'em "immortal souls" for no reason.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 24, 2009 18:45:09 GMT -5
I'm glad Illyria is back. It's a character I think has massive growth potential. Interesting that Gunn has survived too. I'm not sure any of us would have expected that.
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Jan 24, 2009 19:19:35 GMT -5
I havn't read Issue 16 yet but Gunn might still die right? I don't really want him to because there as been so much death..
Fred= still a bit of her around in Illyria, but her soul? I hope they clear that up soon. Cordy= Higer Being so still around but is in a good place, better than most Wes= was a ghost for a bit, that was good as, but is he still going to hell?
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Jan 24, 2009 22:41:00 GMT -5
The deal with Fred has already been cleared up, both in Spike: AtF and Angel: AtF. There is nothing of Fred left in Illyria at all. Illyria wanted there to be, but there wasn't.
Cordy, she's watching over Angel. Good place, check.
Wes. Just dead. No ghost, no Hell-A.
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BenTaylor3907
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Post by BenTaylor3907 on Jan 24, 2009 23:01:23 GMT -5
Wes. Just dead. No ghost, no Hell-A. But he signed a contract from Wolfram & Hart saying that his soul belongs to them/Senior Partners in order to work the L.A. branch. Right? Or am I taking crazy pills? Everyone signed, they're all screwed, right?
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Post by Whedon Fan on Jan 25, 2009 8:00:03 GMT -5
Wes. Just dead. No ghost, no Hell-A. But he signed a contract from Wolfram & Hart saying that his soul belongs to them/Senior Partners in order to work the L.A. branch. Right? Or am I taking crazy pills? Everyone signed, they're all screwed, right? Yeah you're right BUT there is no LA branch anymore... Although it was blown up by Gunn and then when they got out of Hell it was just gone. So I'm not actually sure you could argue that in "Home" of season 4 Wes burns Lilah's contract for it only to re-appear again so honestly I don't know. Nice way to end Wesley's charatcer though they can bring him back if they wnat seen as his contract seems to be eternal or they can let him die in peace (finally) and say that with the LA branch gone Wes is free. Enfact I'm asking Brian this has got me thinking and it's getting annoying now.
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