Has there been a disscussion about Holtz?

[xythil]

Was he bad? Did he just want connor to kill Angel? Did he ever care about connor or justine?

Holtz was a great character.

[zorthrip]

He just wanted revenge for the loss of his family. He was willing to do whatever it took to get it. He didn't recognize the complete difference between Angel and Angelus. From his point of view, he wasn't evil. He was naive, however, and let revenge do that thing it does by pushing him beyond the line of justice into something darker.

[N.D.U.O]

At first I was all for Holtz, I think that what Angelus did to Holtz made what Holtz did justified.
I wasn't even angry when Holtz took Connor because it seemed like he was doing it because he though it was best for Connor. But what he did with Justine when he got her to kill him - it was horrendous.

How could you use a boy who trusted you above all - above his own father - like that?
It crossed over from Justice to vengeance and people who live for venguence - die.
e.g. Halfrek, Anya, Jenny's uncle.

[birdandbear]

Eww, Holtz.

I loathe Holtz with an unclean passion. In my opinion he's possibly the single evilest character ever to appear in the Buffyverse, and I get all tense and crawly feeling whenever he's onscreen. All the monsters, the demons, the vampires - they're mostly just killcrushdestroying because it's their nature to do so. They are certainly evil, and many of them enjoy their evilness - relishing in the smash and bash (Spike) or in inflicting mental and physical torture on their victims (Angelus.) But they are all acting in accordance with their nature as evil things. It's mostly impersonal, opportunistic victimization - predators bringing down prey.
Even Wolfram and Hart, with their millennia of corruption, subversion, destruction, and various other machinations, operate on a 'misery and suffering for all' equal opportunity basis. It's not personal, it's policy.

But Holtz.....
Maybe it's my love for Angel that just infuriates me so, to see him hurt so badly. Or maybe it's the parent in me that recoils at the idea of anyone using a child for their personal gain. Maybe it's simply the horror of a man deliberately quashing his own humanity, burning out his own soul for the sake of revenge. But there is something so insidiously patient and cultivated in Holtz's revenge that it just sickens me. The stone coldness of taking an infant and bringing him up for 17 years in hatred and lies, meticulously crafting a weapon out of a human being, warping and twisting and mutilating a child's psyche, waiting for the day when he can be aimed at his target and loosed......is just....brrrr.

Connor gets such a bad rap so often, but to me he's the most tragic character in the 'verse. He never knew a day when he didn't have somebody messing with his head during his entire stint on the show. First Holtz, then Justine, Jasmine, and finally Vail. Even Angel, Fred and Gunn weren't honest with him when they should have been - a misguided attempt at protection. He had every right to be angry. Poor kid had no compass, he didn't know which way was up. By the time he started to understand what Holtz had done to him, he was too wounded to go on. His weeping "You let him get me" to Angel is just heart rending.

It was such a beautiful thing to see him happy in After the Fall.


I don't believe Holtz ever loved Connor, whatever he might have pretended to himself. Nor, in the end, did his revenge have anything to do with his family. He gave himself wholly to rage and hatred. His assisted suicide was pure spite, hatred reaching even from beyond death to strike his enemy. It had nothing to do with grief, or love. Certainly he never paused to consider the ramifications of his betrayal of the boy who called him father. Why would he? The boy was only ever a tool, and who cares if a tool is broken provided it does what it was designed for?
Holtz's family was only the impetus. At some point along the way they ceased to matter as he traded grief for rage, justice for revenge, and his humanity to become a monster. He invited evil into himself, nurtured it, and allowed it to consume him until it was all he was, leaving him as soulless as a demon, and as venomous as a snake.

[gumgnome]

Wow - awesome summary! KARMA!

[dragonweaver]

I also gave birdandbear karma for that awesome post. That was really a great character analysis for both Holtz & Connor. I actually agree with you.

I do think at one point Holtz was a good and righteous man but Angelus managed to do what he did best. He tortured & corrupted Holtz and turned him into someone who become blinded by vengeance. Honestly I think Holtz tried to convince himself that the massacre of his family was his reason for doing the things he did, but they weren't. His family was his excuse. Horrible things happened to them so I am justified in doing horrible thing to avenge them. Making a pack with a demon, preying on vulernable & grieving people to form his own army, and finally taking Connor and twisting him into a vampire hating killing machine.

The sad part is that Holtz never once stopped to question his actions. He believed that he was right, completely and without question. I think that is why I didn't like him. Doing evil things is one thing, but doing evil things and never being conflicted over them shows me that he checked his humanity at the door a long time before encountering Angel in LA. And gosh darn it if I didn't believe he had changed in "Benediction". He was so convincing, but I guess a leopard can't change his spots. He was playing Angel & Justine just like he had played Connor. Such master manipulator, Angelus would be so proud.

[Neil]

That´s right, dragonweaver. Perfect analysis of Holtz.

In the end he became what he defied.

[El Diablo Robotico]

Very intelligent, well-written analysis by birdandbear--but I couldn't possibly disagree more!

Holtz is one of my favorite characters in the entire 'verse (in no small part because of Keith Szarabajka's acting) because he was really the only Big Bad who wasn't actually evil. As Angel himself said, Holtz was a good and righteous man. He was the Charles Gunn of his day: a human with no superpowers, who went out and killed vampires to try to make the world a safer place. I don't even like to use the term "Big Bad" to describe him. To me, he's more of a "nemesis". He certainly makes for a better discussion on morality and "was he/she even really evil or not?" than Jasmine does.

Holtz's biggest flaw was that he couldn't recognize the distinction between Angel and Angelus, but he's not alone in that--it's still an unsettled question even among the fans as to whether Angel and Angelus are two separate beings, or the same one with and without a conscience. I know that we, as the audience, are naturally on Angel's side, but I still don't know how you can't sympathize with Holtz's desire for vengeance against Angelus, given what was done to his family.

And again, I totally disagree with the opinion that Holtz never really loved Connor, and was using him the whole time. For one thing, he couldn't have had any expectation that they'd ever escape Quor'toth and make it back to LA (especially if he'd done similar research over there as what Angel did, and learned that there were no portals between "our" world and Quor'toth). And for another, I just don't believe anyone could "fake it" for 17 years--he had been a father with 2 kids of his own, and I don't believe that he could just pretend to love this cute little kid for all those years without it becoming true. He loved Connor as much as Angel did.

But just because he loved him didn't mean he wasn't willing to use him, but was what he did at the end that bad? I mean, really? He didn't kill Connor, he killed himself (well, he had Justine do it--same thing). Again, from our perspective of being on Angel's side, that was a horrible thing to do. But from Holtz's POV, Angel is Angelus, and is evil at his core, and he's just paying him back some of the very same sort of pain that Angelus inflicted on him 200 years before--but this time with no blood spilled other than Holtz's own. It seems like a rotten thing to do to his adopted son (who he loves!), tricking him in that way, but to Holtz, Connor is much better off hating the evil SOB than loving him, so it was a lie told for a good cause.

If you're of the opinion (like me) that Angel and Angelus are two entirely separate beings, then Holtz is completely misguided in all his actions, because he's taking revenge on the wrong man, and making two innocent people (Angel and Connor) pay for his error--but it's still an error! He's not maliciously and deliberately setting out to get revenge on the wrong man. And if you're one of those who think Angel and Angelus are actually 2 sides of the same guy, then Holtz becomes even more of an ambiguous, gray-area character.

One of the most fascinating Whedonverse characters ever, and a big reason why I love S3 so much...

[wenxina]

Great posts, birdandbear and El D. While I agree with a good portion of both your posts, I find myself striking a happy medium between the two. I don't think Holtz faked loving Connor, but I don't think his love for Connor was ever equal to that of Angel's. The main distinction between Connor's two fathers is that one was willing to use the kid to get what he so craved (some 200 years of pent-up lust for vengeance), and the other was willing to give up his claim to fatherhood in order to provide his son a better life.

I agree that Holtz's problem stems from his inability to distinguish between Angel and Angelus. But as much as I can empathize with his situation, I'm not entirely sympathetic as his need for revenge ultimately blinded him. Can't say I wouldn't be in the same boat if I was ever put in that situation, but as far as a moral play goes, Holtz pretty much forgets that forgiveness is a very human trait, and becomes a monster of sorts when he resorts to using a boy against his father. The great thing about S3 is that the entire thing actually becomes a nuanced study of relationships, rather than just devolving into pure melodrama. Not denying that melodrama is occasionally present in the Buffyverse (the schmaltz is pretty thick at times), but I think the fact that such compelling arguments from either side of the argument can be incited is testament to the strength of the season and the portrayals of both sides as heroes/villains.

[Hellbound Hyperion]

The great thing about S3 is that the entire thing actually becomes a nuanced study of relationships

Like Angel and Wesley, who have trusted each other almost completely from the start of the series.

I'm with wenxina on this one - Holtz had every reason to be mad at Angelus, but he failed to recognize how Angel's years with a soul had changed him into something resembling a man. He was almost redeemable at the end, too...

[birdandbear]

Wow, thanks for the Karmas guys. It's so cool to finally have a place to have this kind of discussion - that was years worth of pent up thoughts that no one in my RL would understand.

Jun 30, 2009 3:27:37 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

And again, I totally disagree with the opinion that Holtz never really loved Connor, and was using him the whole time. For one thing, he couldn't have had any expectation that they'd ever escape Quor'toth and make it back to LA (especially if he'd done similar research over there as what Angel did, and learned that there were no portals between "our" world and Quor'toth). And for another, I just don't believe anyone could "fake it" for 17 years--he had been a father with 2 kids of his own, and I don't believe that he could just pretend to love this cute little kid for all those years without it becoming true. He loved Connor as much as Angel did.

I have to admit that it's hard to reconcile my 'stone cold bastard' image with that of a man alone in hell, raising and protecting his enemy's child against all manner of threats. Holtz was a father, and in his mind I'm sure he believed that he loved Connor like his own son, but well.....Holtz was crazy. This is the man after all, that tied a five-year-old to a tree and left him alone for days in monster land. In Holtz's view, it was hard but reasonable training in a harsh world. In mine - crazy. (Ten maybe, but five is just too young. )

I guess to me it's like......drug addicts love their children (or lovers or whatever), but they're often too caught up in their addiction to place their loved ones ahead of their own need. Their perspective is warped. To me, love is about placing the needs and happiness of someone else above your own. Holtz could have raised Connor without infusing him with hatred, but he chose not to. Instead he behaved very much like a junkie: rationalizing away the fact that his addiction was dragging Connor down with him. Using him to get his fix.

Angel, on the other hand, made a supreme sacrifice for his son in "Home". I think it was the single most selfless act I've heard of anywhere. Way harder than dying...

Jun 30, 2009 3:27:37 GMT -5 dragonweaver said:

And gosh darn it if I didn't believe he had changed in "Benediction". He was so convincing...

Oh my gosh I know! I cried, thinking that Holtz had seen the light and everything was going to work out.
Silly bird.

I also started out having a great deal of sympathy for Holtz. It's no wonder he went a little mad. But he did make a deal with a demon, and he did betray a boy who trusted him, with no thought for what that might mean to Connor. The thing that cinches it for me is this: Holtz must have known on some level, that there existed the possibility that Connor would someday find out how he really died. And he didn't care. He knew Connor had started to bond with Angel, and he was willing to allow Connor to live with all the guilt of Angel's murder, as well as with knowing that his 'father' had betrayed him in the end. The risk of Connor's psychological damage meant nothing, as long as his vengeance was achieved. It's that lack of regard for a loved one that says to me, it's not real love.

Jun 30, 2009 3:27:37 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

One of the most fascinating Whedonverse characters ever, and a big reason why I love S3 so much...

Jun 30, 2009 3:27:37 GMT -5 @Wenxina said:

but I think the fact that such compelling arguments from either side of the argument can be incited is testament to the strength of the season and the portrayals of both sides as heroes/villains.

Agreed, and agreed. Holtz is a fantastic character, or I wouldn't be able to revile him so. And the fact that he can be defended with equal fervor is the mark of truly masterful storytelling. Season three is incredible.

[Wyndam]

Really interesting discussion! I agree with Xi's statement:

While I agree with a good portion of both your posts, I find myself striking a happy medium between the two. I don't think Holtz faked loving Connor, but I don't think his love for Connor was ever equal to that of Angel's.

And bird and El D both raised really great points. It really shows how awesome of a character Holtz was if people can interpret him in different ways and make great cases for those points as well. He's my favorite Whedonverse villain, along with The Mayor. Just so many layers.

[lightandmagic]

I'm really siding with birdandbear. I actually don't think Holtz really cared all that much for Connor ever. I think he had at that point become so obsessed with vengeance that Connor was simply a tool/weapon to use against Angel when they inevitably met again.

The main reason why I say this is I remember Connor saying he was regularly abandoned by Holtz while in that hell dimension just to teach the kid how to track him. How scarring and traumatic is that for a child? (And he undoubtedly would be a child while he was doing this, a young teenager at most). Holtz wasn't even able to drop his vengeance deal when he was a seperate dimension with no idea if he would ever get back. Yet he merely just raised Connor as essentially a weapon, one that would be amazing at killing, tracking, and most importantly hating his father.

When he gets Justine to kill him, not only turned Connor against Angel, but I think far more importantly simply abandoned Connor. He didn't care what happened to Connor after he died, just as long as it turned him against Angel and that is just so disturbing and sick. I mean really it was a terrifying and new world and he just left him, a whole 17 (Does it ever say his age, I always guess 17) year relationship with an adoptive son just to get revenge. Connor was never his son. He was a tool to use against Angel.

That's what Holtz saw when he first saw Connor being born, a weapon to use against Angel, and that's what he was for him always. He outright lied to Angel when he said he would treat Connor as if he were his own, he just raised the boy to be a patricidal maniac.

[Hellbound Hyperion]

(Does it ever say his age, I always guess 17)

At some point in Season Four, he says he's 18.

I maintain that the only two people who ever loved Connor were Angel and Darla.

[El Diablo Robotico]

Jul 1, 2009 3:38:01 GMT -5 lightandmagic said:

The main reason why I say this is I remember Connor saying he was regularly abandoned by Holtz while in that hell dimension just to teach the kid how to track him. How scarring and traumatic is that for a child? (And he undoubtedly would be a child while he was doing this, a young teenager at most). Holtz wasn't even able to drop his vengeance deal when he was a seperate dimension with no idea if he would ever get back. Yet he merely just raised Connor as essentially a weapon, one that would be amazing at killing, tracking, and most importantly hating his father.

In older, harsher civilizations, parents would treat their kids in ways that would shock us today, but it was just their way of making sure the kids developed the skills necessary to survive. We have no idea what Quor'toth was like (or what kind of a badass killer Connor was, even as a young child), so I think we're making a mistake in judging anything Holtz did there and trying to argue as to whether it proves anything about his feelings toward Connor.

Can we all agree that before Angelus came into his life, Holtz was a good and decent man? Loving father, devoted husband, and leader of men with a noble mission (killing vampires)? Again, it becomes hard for us to sympathize with him later on, because we've spent 5.5 seasons becoming invested in Angel, but let's turn it around for a moment.

Let's say a big-time new vamp is introduced in S9 of "Buffy". He kills Dawn, Willow, and Xander. Buffy chases after him, which isn't hard, since he's leaving a huge swath of dead bodies in his wake. She catches up with him every now and then, and whenever she does, he torments her by laughing and joking about killing her loved ones. He grins as he tells her about how Dawn screamed as he raped her several times, before he finally got bored with that and killed her. Wouldn't this guy quickly become the most hated character of all-time in the Buffyverse? Wouldn't the fans just be dying to see her finally kill him? Or even better, deal him a fate even worse than death, if somehow that were possible?

Is Holtz a little more relatable now?

Getting back to him and Connor, where's the evidence that he raised Connor to "most importantly, hate his father?" Are we supposed to believe that Holtz drilled the story into his head over and over and over, fostering that hatred for him as one of the most important concepts in the kid's life? There's absolutely no proof of that. Yes, Connor knows the story and hates Angelus because of it, but all that would've taken was Holtz telling him the story once, when he was old enough to understand it, because the story is sufficiently horrific that given his love for Holtz, Connor is going to form an instant hatred for Angelus right then and there.

Yet he quickly started to warm up to Angel, didn't he (before Holtz's death)? Laughing and goofing around with him in the alley, after the fight in the bar where they saved Justine. Would he have been able to do that if his hatred for him had been so deeply ingrained, drilled into him from such a young age? Would the son of an al-Qaeda terrorist fall in love with an Israeli girl after knowing her for just a day or two? So if anything, that argues against Holtz raising Connor on a steady anti-Angelus agenda.

Everything Holtz did up until framing Angel for his murder is not only defensible, but justifiable. And even that final act isn't the act of an evil man. He sees the perfect chance to get an amazing act of revenge on one of the most evil creatures walking the earth, who now has a soul and will be able to feel it. And (in Holtz's mind) no matter what thin veneer of decency Angelus is trying to fool people with these days, he's still an evil thing, and the evil will re-emerge (probably sooner rather than later). Connor needs to learn that, and just telling it to him probably isn't going to make a strong enough impact, so Holtz is going to demonstrate it to him in the most visceral way possible. Harsh, yes, but I'd argue that it's still the act of a loving father who wants to make sure his son learns all the lessons he needs to survive, even the painful ones.

And then, best-case for Holtz: Connor is so angry that he kills Angelus, who'll never again be able to inflict the sort of pain and misery on anyone else that he inflicted on Holtz, and the world will be just a little bit better and a little bit safer from then on...

[snizapman6294]

Jul 1, 2009 3:58:01 GMT -5 Hellbound Hyperion said:

(Does it ever say his age, I always guess 17)

At some point in Season Four, he says he's 18.

I maintain that the only two people who ever loved Connor were Angel and Darla.

and in Not Fade Away, he's applying to college, no? so yeah, it seems appropriate to place him in that age group.

I love Holtz. i think it's awesome that Joss made his name the German word for 'wood'... i think his storyline was fantastically written. Keith "I-have-no-idea-how-to-pronounce-his-name" Szarabajka's acting was amazing... BUT... i HATED more than anything (except Connor and Cordelia) in Angel was Holtz taking Connor. I liked father action figure Angel. and i felt like he finally got a break with Connor... He loved Buffy, lost her. He loved Darla, lost her. He loved Doyle, lost him. and then he loved Connor, lost him. and i hate seeing even fake people in pain for losing someone.

[Paul]

I always hated Holtz. I respect everyone's comments here about how he was such a deep character; you're probably right. But, personally, I just hated watching him. He bored the crap out of me. On paper, the idea of one of Angelus' victims coming back as a Big Bad for Angel seems great, but it didn't work for me. First of all, we the viewers don't blame Angel for Angelus' deeds. We've been through all that in Buffy season 2 and we're over it, we're on Angel's side. So some guy showing up whining about his dead family (who I don't know or care about) is not a particularly sympathetic villain to me. Second of all, Holtz is just such a dry, humourless character. Most of the villains in the Buffyverse have a good sense of humor, but Holtz was such a bore. He, Justine and Connor all took themselves so seriously, they were the most boring group of villains the Buffyverse had ever seen. Even Adam was more entertaining than them.

So yeah... I like that Holtz has his fans, but I'm not one of them.

[Hellbound Hyperion]

and in Not Fade Away, he's applying to college, no?

Sorry, I'm still a bit off-topic - I just don't have much of an opinion about Holtz as a character and am just clearing up facts :

SPOILER: Click to show

He's already in college by then; he's writing a resume in NFA, maybe for a job or something.

[snizapman6294]

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

[gumgnome]

Jul 15, 2009 22:34:29 GMT -5 Paul said:

Second of all, Holtz is just such a dry, humourless character. Most of the villains in the Buffyverse have a good sense of humor, but Holtz was such a bore. He, Justine and Connor all took themselves so seriously, they were the most boring group of villains the Buffyverse had ever seen.

Bingo! Hits the nail right on the head! Karma.