The Night Lord
Wise-cracking Sidekick
The Long Kiss Goodnight
There can be no love. Only pain exists[Mo0:1]
Posts: 2,654
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Post by The Night Lord on Jun 15, 2009 14:56:50 GMT -5
Okay, so I may have crossed the line there, but I really haven't been pleased with Aftermath and it's quality and all the other things that have been mentioned across the threads....okay, I'm gonna shut up now *goes hides in the dark corner*
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Post by Emmie on Jun 15, 2009 15:12:57 GMT -5
but isn't this a bit much? Kelley is a fan, and furthermore, Kelley and Dave are both people. No matter how much you hate their work, I think this is really inappropriate for a board that strives to be a friendly place. This isn't the Dark Horse Boards, where no moderators are around to keep shippers from cutting each others throats out. Yes, it was a bit much. Night Lord, please feel free to edit your original post to a more polite tone of criticism. What also strikes me a bit odd here is the identification of Armstrong as a "fan". That...doesn't matter. She's a writer of the series now in comic form. If we were talking about a fanmade effort, then the fact that they're "fans" might apply. Armstrong's a professional. That's what comes first and foremost. And she's done an incredibly poor job in comparison to her professional peers (Lynch, Whedon, Goddard, etc.). So no - no cookies for her. That's the rub with subjectivity of art and working in a world where you're trying to create an entertaining project for the masses. If it's not good, if it's not entertaining, you don't get the applause. And you are going to be lambasted when you're writing for a much beloved 'verse with a rabid fandom where writers who actually get it have just come before you. So either do better next time (which I mean to be after each issue she wrote, something which never happened so I'm hoping she's done) or move to an area where you can do better and let others who excel take the field. Survival of the fittest in the world of entertainment. It's harsh but them's the breaks. And there's a reason for it - to weed out all the tripe. I don't really see a need to be "friendly". Friendly with each other here on the boards? I'd hope so. But at most you're required to be courteous. But when it comes to official discussion of the issues, you're free to offer your concrit at will as long as it doesn't cross the lines of decency.
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Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Jun 15, 2009 17:38:43 GMT -5
Harsh but true, they are both very good at their trades but they both missed the ball bit time with Aftermath and the only thing about it I enjoyed was Nick Runge #21 Cover and to add on to that they might have ruined the very last appearance of, you know...
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jun 15, 2009 18:28:47 GMT -5
What also strikes me a bit odd here is the identification of Armstrong as a "fan". That...doesn't matter. In the context of what I was saying, the way I used "she's a fan" was to show how it's rude to tell a fellow fan and a fellow human being to "frak off" for their work. I was in no way trying to give her an excuse for writing bad issues. So in the context of what I was saying, it does kinda matter. That is very true. I don't think anyone would disagree with that on this board. Also don't think anyone would disagree with this. No one is trying to throw her cookies or applause, that's clear in every "Aftermath" thread. We tried it, we mostly didn't like it, and a lot even hated it. My only point was that critique should stick to her work, and not hurl poo poo at her as a person. That is what I meant by friendly. I don't mean "Mr. Feeny, neighborly" friendly, I mean "not insulting" friendly. I don't think anyone would disagree with this either. Certainly not me!
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 656
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Post by Nicholas on Jun 15, 2009 20:45:59 GMT -5
I dislike Kelly and Ross only when it comes to their work on Angel, not as a person or anything else, but to tell you the truth, Angel is Joss's baby just as much as Buffy is and with how good After The Fall was, I think its absolutely insane that he is just doing other things and not even making a statement about it. Cordy had an amazing sendoff in ATF and look what happened to her now! The one question I have is: did Kelly not even READ ATF? Her story doesnt even make any sense.
And the crappy art is back too. Thank god this is the last issue.
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Post by Emmie on Jun 15, 2009 21:50:36 GMT -5
What also strikes me a bit odd here is the identification of Armstrong as a "fan". That...doesn't matter. In the context of what I was saying, the way I used "she's a fan" was to show how it's rude to tell a fellow fan and a fellow human being to "frak off" for their work. I was in no way trying to give her an excuse for writing bad issues. So in the context of what I was saying, it does kinda matter. Still don't see how being a "fan" has any relevance regarding common courtesy. We have forum rules against name calling. Cursing at someone goes against these rules of common courtesy. Being a "fan" has nothing to do with proper decorum. So again, it doesn't matter that she's a fan. It matters that she's a person. The only two categories of distinction that really matter are that Armstrong is a person (thus deserving the decency of not being cussed out) and she's a professional contributor to the ANGEL title (thus making her work open to criticism here). "Fan" doesn't matter in comparison to the two that have all the necessary bases covered. The only legitimate way I see the title "fan" being used is to instill solidarity amongst other fans, most likely in situations where differing opinions have reach a boiling point. I've used this myself in the past. But again, it's not that Armstrong is a fan. It's that she's a creator now. Person > Professional Creator .................> Fan And to be honest, if Armstrong is a "fan" then she's not a very well-versed one considering the shaky handling of After the Fall canon in Aftermath and the wasteful return of Cordelia that lacked the emotional punch and dire circumstances of AtF. Unless we're talking about labeling her a "fan" in another sense, because bringing back Cordy in this way is exactly the sort of thing you'd find in fanfiction.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jun 15, 2009 22:06:13 GMT -5
Still don't see how being a "fan" has any relevance regarding common courtesy. We have forum rules against name calling. Cursing at someone goes against these rules of common courtesy. Being a "fan" has nothing to do with proper decorum. So again, it doesn't matter that she's a fan. It matters that she's a person. The only two categories of distinction that really matter are that Armstrong is a person (thus deserving the decency of not being cussed out) and she's a professional contributor to the ANGEL title (thus making her work open to criticism here). "Fan" doesn't matter in comparison to the two that have all the necessary bases covered. The only legitimate way I see the title "fan" being used is to instill solidarity amongst other fans, most likely in situations where differing opinions have reach a boiling point. I've used this myself in the past. But again, it's not that Armstrong is a fan. It's that she's a creator now. Person > Professional Creator .................> Fan And to be honest, if Armstrong is a "fan" then she's not a very well-versed one considering the shaky handling of After the Fall canon in Aftermath and the wasteful return of Cordelia that lacked the emotional punch and dire circumstances of AtF. Unless we're talking about labeling her a "fan" in another sense, because bringing back Cordy in this way is exactly the sort of thing you'd find in fanfiction. This is really dwelling a loooot on semantics, and I think everyone knows what I meant. The main jist of the point, without dissecting every word in the sentence, remains: The comment he made was inappropriate, he corrected it.
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Post by Emmie on Jun 15, 2009 22:11:45 GMT -5
This is really a lot about semantics, and I think everyone knows what I meant. The point remains. It was inappropriate, it was corrected. Words are powerful when used properly. Unless you were meaning to work towards extending the meaning of the word "fan" though, which is also possible in the way that people like to reappropriate meaning of words in the evolution of language. And an argument of words over words is just aces to me. Sorry Pat if it's dwelling a looooooot but I just found the framing of your argument flawed. I'm a word lover. The word choice struck me as a bit odd (something which I said in the initial post). It's not a huge issue, I very much made it clear it was a segue from the main issue which was already dealt with. If I'm dwelling, buddy, you're certainly dwelling too. Welcome to Dwellsville. And actually, making the distinction between common courtesy being given to a person simply because they are a person rather than because they are a "fan" - well, that actually falls under my job description. Heh.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jun 15, 2009 22:22:39 GMT -5
Ummmmm... the framing being this one word? You didn't seem to disagree with anything else. Because I even said "furthermore, they are both people"... which is pretty much what you said right here: Person > Professional Creator .................> Fan. I don't know, I didn't come here to argue, I just wanted to make sure no one was getting told to "frak off" is all. Peace be with you.
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Post by Emmie on Jun 15, 2009 22:29:05 GMT -5
Pat, at this point my last post had nothing to do with Aftermath so while it might have been off-topic, I'm really not sure where your reply about me spewing hatred is coming from. Overreaction much? Or are you redirecting responses from my other posts recently to right here?
And I'm sorry, but are you implying that I've attacked Kelley and Dave in your sentence about "no matter how much I hate their work, I think it is really inappropriate" line. I reinforced the 'no it's wrong to curse at people', though expressing a negative opinion/criticism in an intelligent manner is a fan's right. More than that, it's the point of a forum. To have equal opportunity for discourse. And I'm very well aware of what this fan board is.
Seriously, Pat, where did you jump off the high board here? My last post was a discussion of semantics and the application of my right to discuss it. And you jump to this? Talk about sucker punching.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jun 15, 2009 22:31:11 GMT -5
And I'm sorry, but are you implying that I've attacked Kelley and Dave in your sentence about "no matter how much I hate their work, I think it is really inappropriate" line. No! What are you talking about? The whole time, I've only been talking about The Night Lord's "frak off" line. That is 100% it. PS: I meant to put that opening paragraph in quotes, as it was my original post to The Night Lord. Maybe that caused the confusion?
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Post by Emmie on Jun 15, 2009 22:38:43 GMT -5
Bwah! I think at this point I can't even tell what we're talking about anymore.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jun 15, 2009 22:42:12 GMT -5
Bwah! I think at this point I can't even tell what we're talking about anymore. lol Yeah, samesies. Just know that the original paragraph wasn't for you, that was just what I originally said to The Night Lord. Nothing you said warrented that, not at all. Soooo can we forget this?
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Post by wenxina on Jun 15, 2009 22:51:28 GMT -5
Soooo can we forget this? Please do.
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The Night Lord
Wise-cracking Sidekick
The Long Kiss Goodnight
There can be no love. Only pain exists[Mo0:1]
Posts: 2,654
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Post by The Night Lord on Jun 16, 2009 0:11:08 GMT -5
Yeah, I think I'm gonna finish this off by saying that I am sorry for my previous post about the whole 'frak off' thing and that I crossed the line. I shouldn't have and I cannot blame anyone else but myself. As usual, my temper got in the way and I ended up writing that. So once again, I am very sorry about this and will try better next time to keep my temper in check
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jun 16, 2009 0:32:16 GMT -5
It definitely happens to us all, no doubt about that. I said mean stuff about Nancy Holder that I regret over at the Dark Horse boards because I hated "Queen of the Slayers." We're passionate about the 'verse, and it brings out fiery emotions in us, for sure.
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Post by diabeticdude202 on Jun 16, 2009 1:22:49 GMT -5
I agree. Although we all do love Buffy & Angel we all have different "favourite" episodes and different "worst" episodes....may I ask you patxshand something. What didn't you like about the "Queen of the Slayers" book. Not to go off topic but i've hear a lot of people say they don't like it, and I liked it, so just wondering...you don't have to tell me if you don't want to lol.
XD Can't wait for Angel: AFtermath to be DONE and DUSTED
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jun 16, 2009 11:48:27 GMT -5
I agree. Although we all do love Buffy & Angel we all have different "favourite" episodes and different "worst" episodes....may I ask you patxshand something. What didn't you like about the "Queen of the Slayers" book. Not to go off topic but i've hear a lot of people say they don't like it, and I liked it, so just wondering...you don't have to tell me if you don't want to lol. Pretty much the same problems I have with "Aftermath," only to a much larger extent. None of the characters sound like themselves, is the main killer. What also really hurt the book is the lack of concentration on Buffy and the supporting characters, and instead throwing a whole bunch of random characters in the book. Too many supporting characters can tear a narrative off its hinges, and that happened in QotS. All of that, plus just a lot of inexplicable, crazy things happening. I won't spoil, so clicky: The thing with Buffy, Angel, and Spike was just... really odd. All of the connections made to the Angel storyline didn't work for me much at all. So that's my view on it!
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jun 17, 2009 16:47:16 GMT -5
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jellymoff
Ensouled Vampire
Claimer of Funn[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,174
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Post by jellymoff on Jun 17, 2009 16:50:25 GMT -5
So, anyone read this issue? To me, the best think about it was Runge's cover, because Kate actually looked like Kate! Can't say that I liked this issue any better than the others, but hey, Armstrong gave it the 'ol college try. Not everything always works out. Sometimes even great writers write mediocre stories. What the deal with the whole Conner and Dez thing? You think she will be a character going forward?
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