jr24tw
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Post by jr24tw on Mar 14, 2010 18:38:32 GMT -5
I have a question regarding Angel as Twilight. Has it been established yet whether Angel is human or still a Vampire? I'm asking because they are fighting during daylight. Or does his invincibility work like the ring of Amara and protects him from sunlight?
I don't doubt it's Angel because it's been said by the creators that he is but why did he call her 'Buff' at first instead of 'Buffy'? That's what Angelus always used to call her. Is there are a reason for that?
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Mar 14, 2010 20:24:18 GMT -5
I don't doubt it's Angel because it's been said by the creators that he is but why did he call her 'Buff' at first instead of 'Buffy'? That's what Angelus always used to call her. Is there are a reason for that? Angelus is just Angel's own dark side that he suppresses because of his soul, not an entirely different person (although there is some inconsistancy regarding that). Maybe the darker he's become as Twilight, the more of Angelus' personality seeps through, even though he does still have his soul. Kind of like how Dark Willow used the same expression ("Bored now.") that her soulless, vampire counterpart used. They're basically the same person.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 14, 2010 21:16:57 GMT -5
Angelus is a demon who drove Angel's soul out of his body and possessed it (gaining access to all its memories) when Angel was vamped by Darla in an alleyway in Galway 250 years ago.
When Angel's soul is in his body, it dominates the demon Angelus and prevents it from acting... but the demon is still there, and gives Angel his vampire powers and vulnerabilities.
I gather that Twangel's newfound power simply makes him invulnerable to all harm... he's still a vampire, but nothing (including stakes and sunlight) can hurt him. As far as I can see, it's equivalent to wearing the Gem of Amara.
The power also apparently negates the "true happiness" curse.
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Post by krazyxxxdj on Mar 14, 2010 22:24:16 GMT -5
I know this 99.9% doesn't matter, but watching reruns on Logo, "Enemies" was on, Angel (pretending to be Angelus) calls Buffy "Buff" and that's when Buffy "clues in" that something is wrong with Angel, is there significance in that? As he calls her "Buff" here again
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jr24tw
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Post by jr24tw on Mar 14, 2010 22:27:36 GMT -5
^^That is exactly what I meant. Now I know in Enemies he was pretending to be Angelus but Angel never called Buffy anything other than that. 'Buff' was only ever used by Angelus. That's why I was confused at first in this issue (remembering the writers saying it was Angel). I thought he was Angelus right there.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Mar 14, 2010 22:28:31 GMT -5
Angelus is a demon who drove Angel's soul out of his body and possessed it (gaining access to all its memories) when Angel was vamped by Darla in an alleyway in Galway 250 years ago. When Angel's soul is in his body, it dominates the demon Angelus and prevents it from acting... but the demon is still there, and gives Angel his vampire powers and vulnerabilities. That's propaganda spouted by the Watchers' Council to justify slaying vampires; a Slayer won't hesitate to kill a vampire if she believes it's an entirely different being to the human it was. Notice how Giles uses this on Xander to justify killing Jesse, but Angel has a different opinion in "Doppelgangland". The truth is, while vampires are demons, they are still the person they always were. The demon isn't a wholly separate entity with it's own personality, it just corrupts (or perhaps unleashes?) what was already there. Vamp Willow, Spike, and Harmony all prove that a person's soul isn't their personality, just their conscience.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 14, 2010 22:56:31 GMT -5
I'm wondering about that sniper who tried to take a shot at Buffy back in "Retreat."
He was one of Twilight's soldiers, and he certainly seemed intent on killing Buffy, and would likely have succeeded if Satsu hadn't pushed her out of the way. Why would Angel have sent someone in to kill her if his whole plan was to prepare her for her destiny, or whatever?
Could it be...
* The sniper wasn't sent to kill her; he was just a soldier caught behind enemy lines who had a line of fire on the enemy commander and decided to take it on his own initiative;
* He wasn't aiming at Buffy;
* Unknown to her, Buffy had already become invulnerable by that point, and Angel wanted her to discover that by getting shot but not hurt;
* Angel can see glimpses of the future, knew that the sniper would miss Buffy and she'd wind up in the goddess's hand, where her powers would be unlocked;
* There are traitors within Angel's organization.
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Post by joan on Mar 14, 2010 23:46:07 GMT -5
I'm wondering about that sniper who tried to take a shot at Buffy back in "Retreat." He was one of Twilight's soldiers, and he certainly seemed intent on killing Buffy, and would likely have succeeded if Satsu hadn't pushed her out of the way. Why would Angel have sent someone in to kill her if his whole plan was to prepare her for her destiny, or whatever? Could it be... * The sniper wasn't sent to kill her; he was just a soldier caught behind enemy lines who had a line of fire on the enemy commander and decided to take it on his own initiative; * He wasn't aiming at Buffy; * Unknown to her, Buffy had already become invulnerable by that point, and Angel wanted her to discover that by getting shot but not hurt; * Angel can see glimpses of the future, knew that the sniper would miss Buffy and she'd wind up in the goddess's hand, where her powers would be unlocked; * There are traitors within Angel's organization. All of these theories seem plausible. It's been a long time since I've read that issue, and I can't really remember what the deal was in that scene. I like your last idea the best, though. Who might the traitor be, I wonder?
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Post by Emmie on Mar 15, 2010 1:12:24 GMT -5
Ah, I missed the Howl's Moving Castle thing. Which, I also don't get the reference for and feel too lazy late at night to Google.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 15, 2010 7:33:09 GMT -5
Ah, I missed the Howl's Moving Castle thing. Which, I also don't get the reference for and feel too lazy late at night to Google. It's a children's story about a wizard named Howell (Howl) who has a magic moving castle. Probably more famous for the anime movie version by Hayao Miyazaki. The plot of that story is actually pretty interesting if you compare it to what's going on right now between Buffy and Angel.
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Post by henzINNIT on Mar 15, 2010 8:46:24 GMT -5
Angelus is a demon who drove Angel's soul out of his body and possessed it (gaining access to all its memories) when Angel was vamped by Darla in an alleyway in Galway 250 years ago. When Angel's soul is in his body, it dominates the demon Angelus and prevents it from acting... but the demon is still there, and gives Angel his vampire powers and vulnerabilities. That's propaganda spouted by the Watchers' Council to justify slaying vampires; a Slayer won't hesitate to kill a vampire if she believes it's an entirely different being to the human it was. Notice how Giles uses this on Xander to justify killing Jesse, but Angel has a different opinion in "Doppelgangland". The truth is, while vampires are demons, they are still the person they always were. The demon isn't a wholly separate entity with it's own personality, it just corrupts (or perhaps unleashes?) what was already there. Vamp Willow, Spike, and Harmony all prove that a person's soul isn't their personality, just their conscience. Propaganda is a very strong term. Although vampires retain strong personallity traits of the people they were before, the soul has gone and the view that therefore the person has gone too is pretty valid. The soul is described as what goes to heaven when you die afterall, so it must be a pretty big chunk of a person's make-up.
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BlueJay
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Post by BlueJay on Mar 15, 2010 9:36:15 GMT -5
Angelus is a demon who drove Angel's soul out of his body and possessed it (gaining access to all its memories) when Angel was vamped by Darla in an alleyway in Galway 250 years ago. When Angel's soul is in his body, it dominates the demon Angelus and prevents it from acting... but the demon is still there, and gives Angel his vampire powers and vulnerabilities. That's propaganda spouted by the Watchers' Council to justify slaying vampires; a Slayer won't hesitate to kill a vampire if she believes it's an entirely different being to the human it was. Notice how Giles uses this on Xander to justify killing Jesse, but Angel has a different opinion in "Doppelgangland". The truth is, while vampires are demons, they are still the person they always were. The demon isn't a wholly separate entity with it's own personality, it just corrupts (or perhaps unleashes?) what was already there. Vamp Willow, Spike, and Harmony all prove that a person's soul isn't their personality, just their conscience. Well based on how Angel's crew treat Angelus like an entirely separate person on AtS, and based on this BtVS Season Two quote, I have to disagree with you: This is pretty much how I view vampires. If I were turned into a Buffyverse vampire, I would be in some mystical afterlife dimension. The body I leave behind will be taken over by a demon entity. How the demon acts is kinda up to the demon. Some vampires act like carbon copies of the original - like Harmony. Some vampires are perversions of the original - like Drusilla, Spike's mom, Vamp Willow, etc. And some vampires are more "big picture, big bad" material, like Angelus, Vamp Gunn, Harth, etc. As for what Angel might have said in "Doppelgangland"... we're not even sure what he disagreed with. In the AtS episode "War Zone", after Gunn staked Alonna, Angel says to Gunn: Angel believes here that Alonna was gone the moment she was turned.
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jr24tw
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Post by jr24tw on Mar 15, 2010 11:04:26 GMT -5
I always envisioned the demon as an entirely different entity. The soul is what makes us human. It's been stated enough in both show that once the soul is gone the human being ceases to exist.
How the vampire acts does depend on who the human was before being turned. But I thought it was more along the lines of when the turning happens the demon gets all the memories and feelings of the human. And as a demon it will always look for the most evil or twisted thing/feeling it can find. Because demons thrive on it. And some humans are just mellow. Others are royally screwed up. Some have a dark side they never show yet the demon will display.
Liam was wasting his life away. He had an oppressive father. He didn't like the time he lived in. There probably were times he wanted to lash out at the people around him and his family. Wanting to punish everyone for his 'miserable' life. That's the part the demon latched on to.
Drusilla was never really sane due to her visions. But what Angelus did to her family drove her over the edge. If you watch the scene in the church (or whatever it is) with Darla and Angelus when they are all over each other and human Drusilla is pressed against the wall. If you watch her reactions she reminds you of vamp Dru already.
Harmony was an airhead. I doubt there were any dark things in her. All she cared about was being popular. The demon had nothing to feed off of.
I know people will disagree with me but Spike (as William, vamp Spike, chip Spike, ensouled Spike) wasn't that much different beneath the surface. I'm guessing William had a good and 'pure' soul and thoughts. Which is why vamp Spike still felt affection/love, be it William's mother or Drusilla or even Buffy. He killed sure. He is a vampire. But unlike Angelus he never found pleasure in it or in torturing his victims. He didn't seek destruction and murder...Angelus taught him that.
Spike's mom really loved her boy. And maybe it was more than just a mother's love. The demon thrived on that twisted love.
I never saw vamp Willow as a perversion though. Since her and dark Willow aren't all that different. So vamp Willow displayed things that have always been in Willow yet she never showed.
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Mar 16, 2010 7:58:36 GMT -5
This is what I don't understand...how is it that Buffy wants to end the world of magic...when her own essence as the Slayer is part demon? If Buffy gets rid of magic she ends the Slayer line. When this happens the demon essence that is hers will be gone. Buffy will no longer be the Slayer. But if I'm understanding the "prophecy" correctly, Buffy sucks the magical essence into another universe and she's sucked into it.
Now, the only thing that's not clear is whether or not Buffy enters this world "alone" or whether she's going with the Scoobies. That part of Urkonn's remark to Fray didn't make this clear. Emmie told me the "hand' that's reaching out from the portal is Buffy's...but if you look at that hand...gosh it's hideous. Buffy gets transformed into I don't know what. But those long fingernails suggest Buffy is turned into a witch. Which would be a surprising twist...and the really stunning switch would be to see Willow being the Slayer. I doubt we're getting this. It would be fun to see though and would fit the comment that the landscape will be changed.
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Post by wenxina on Mar 16, 2010 11:12:41 GMT -5
The owner of the hand has never actually been identified positively and without a doubt. I know one of the writers has said something to the effect that it was always going to be Buffy in one of the S7 commentaries or something, but it's never been determined within canon. Which means that it's still subject to change, if required. It's an educated guess that it's Buffy's hand, since just about anything to do with the Slayer mythology has to be tied to her for the maximum amount of impact.
As for the appearance of the hand, again, as I've pointed out before, it's just Moline's style. I don't see the logic leap to "witch", since Willow has never been shown to have grotesque hands.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 16, 2010 11:25:32 GMT -5
David Fury said it's Buffy. While he's not Joss, I'm certain he's right. Buffy is the protagonist of this story, and it wouldn't make any dramatic sense to have somebody else cross the finish line like that. I would say it could conceivably be Faith, but the miniskirt tells me "no." I assume this Fraypocalypse is the same as the "Battle of Starbucks" mentioned in ToYL, and Scott has confirmed that will be happening in season 8. So, unless Joss intends to change the timeline, this season will end with magic and demons and devils banished from this world and Buffy (at least temporarily) on another plane. With no demons left to fight in this world, Joss could in season 9 go the route of having Buffy and her surviving friends on another plane, maybe trying to fight their way home or something, like "The Odyssey." But also, bear in mind that with demons and vampires banished, the "balance of power" mentioned by Angel will tilt too far in the other direction... with no opposition left, the Powers That Be will have unlimited influence in our world. I've often thought that Buffy's next (and maybe final) challenge will be to banish them from the world as well, allowing humanity to set its own course without being led around by higher and lower powers. That would suit Humanist Joss just fine, I'm thinking.
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Post by wenxina on Mar 16, 2010 11:45:03 GMT -5
David Fury said it's Buffy. While he's not Joss, I'm certain he's right. Buffy is the protagonist of this story, and it wouldn't make any dramatic sense to have somebody else cross the finish line like that. I would say it could conceivably be Faith, but the miniskirt tells me "no." That's what I said. However, the girl in the dress, and the owner of the hand do not necessarily have to be the same person. I don't disagree that it makes dramatic sense for it to be Buffy, since the entire franchise is named after her.
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Mar 16, 2010 13:31:00 GMT -5
David Fury said it's Buffy. While he's not Joss, I'm certain he's right. Buffy is the protagonist of this story, and it wouldn't make any dramatic sense to have somebody else cross the finish line like that. I would say it could conceivably be Faith, but the miniskirt tells me "no." That's what I said. However, the girl in the dress, and the owner of the hand do not necessarily have to be the same person. I don't disagree that it makes dramatic sense for it to be Buffy, since the entire franchise is named after her. That's a pretty grotesque looking hand from the portal let me tell you. By comparison if you're saying Malone's style is like this...I suggest you look at Muffitt's hand to see if her's is as exaggerated as the one we saw in ToYL. And to be clear on this point remember it's Malone who did the artwork in the Willow one shot as well.
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Post by wenxina on Mar 16, 2010 14:01:57 GMT -5
I'm well aware that Karl Moline did the artwork in Fray, "ToYL", as well as the Willow one-shot. I'm also aware that years had passed between his stint on Fray and his return to drawing the Buffyverse characters, and that his style had changed some since then. He said so himself in an interview that was conducted around the time when buzz was building for "ToYL". Fans are often split on Moline's work anyway. Some enjoy the quirks, other don't. The grotesque hand is very possibly just a quirk, further enhanced, or defaced (depending on your view) by the heavy ink, and bright color. What I don't understand is your leap that Buffy must have become a witch, because of a grotesque looking hand. And that's why I mentioned Willow, who's never ever been shown to have grotesque hands, despite her status as witch extraordinaire.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Mar 16, 2010 14:18:36 GMT -5
What I don't understand is your leap that Buffy must have become a witch, because of a grotesque looking hand. The hand in question has fingernails, which obviously means that Buffy will be turned into a Martian, since Martians have fingernails. And since Buffy is going to be a Martian, that means Faith and Warren are going to open a cafe together in France.
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