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Post by DorothyFan1 on Mar 16, 2010 14:43:25 GMT -5
I'm well aware that Karl Moline did the artwork in Fray, "ToYL", as well as the Willow one-shot. I'm also aware that years had passed between his stint on Fray and his return to drawing the Buffyverse characters, and that his style had changed some since then. He said so himself in an interview that was conducted around the time when buzz was building for "ToYL". Fans are often split on Moline's work anyway. Some enjoy the quirks, other don't. The grotesque hand is very possibly just a quirk, further enhanced, or defaced (depending on your view) by the heavy ink, and bright color. What I don't understand is your leap that Buffy must have become a witch, because of a grotesque looking hand. And that's why I mentioned Willow, who's never ever been shown to have grotesque hands, despite her status as witch extraordinaire. If my leap in logic is being questioned here...let me say I fully understand that my views could turn out to be incorrect. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with speculation. I just happen to be pretty good at spinning some wild scenarios out of thin air based on very vague hints and on occasion this has caused some stir in certain quarters - on forums like Buffy and others in different avenues. Now if you want to compare the hand we see in ToYL and make a value judgment then you'll have to excuse me for making the connection to Willow because her hands are drawn pretty much the same way as the one from the portal. Maggie makes the connection it's Buffy because the nail polish is pink. Well, I must say I've been wrong before but I wasn't making a judgment call on the nail polish...but he whole image. Then there's the whole issue about Willow's ear in ToYL as well. In my view her ear is pointy. Whether that's a "quirk" or "intentional" is also up for judgment as well. But I don't think it was a quirk. I believe the panel showing Willow's ear was intentional in the context of her conversation with Fray. Fray says Willow isn't quite "human". The very next panel seems to show us textually why that is...and we see Willow's ear. I don't think it's a coincidence. Especially in graphic novel format when image is everything. Then there''s Georges Jeanty's alternate cover of Willow in that one shot...the one showing her hand in a strange configuration...which I recognized as a shadow symbol for a dog. But change the word around...the message is "god"...meaning Willow is now a god. Of course all of this could just be coincidence. I recognize that as well. It's just that I have a lot of fun seeing things which may or may not be accurate. It's so much more fun to speculate and learn later on whether it's true or false.
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Post by thedarkshape on Mar 16, 2010 15:34:27 GMT -5
Angelus is a demon who drove Angel's soul out of his body and possessed it (gaining access to all its memories) when Angel was vamped by Darla in an alleyway in Galway 250 years ago. When Angel's soul is in his body, it dominates the demon Angelus and prevents it from acting... but the demon is still there, and gives Angel his vampire powers and vulnerabilities. Oh, I hate this explanation. Not yours, Andrew -- as this is what Angel: Season 4 made of it. But I've always despised the notion that Angelus is an entirely separate person. It's so much darker and more tragic when Angelus is simply Angel without conscience. He's essentially what Angel really is, he just tries to be better.
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Post by wenxina on Mar 16, 2010 16:17:03 GMT -5
Then there''s Georges Jeanty's alternate cover of Willow in that one shot...the one showing her hand in a strange configuration...which I recognized as a shadow symbol for a dog. But change the word around...the message is "god"...meaning Willow is now a god. Of course all of this could just be coincidence. I recognize that as well. It's just that I have a lot of fun seeing things which may or may not be accurate. It's so much more fun to speculate and learn later on whether it's true or false. The variant cover for the Willow one-shot was provided by Moline, not Jeanty. Pretty sure that Jeanty is contracted to provide a variant for each of the numbered issues, but as the one-shot wasn't numbered, Jeanty didn't provide that cover.
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Mar 16, 2010 16:36:19 GMT -5
Then there''s Georges Jeanty's alternate cover of Willow in that one shot...the one showing her hand in a strange configuration...which I recognized as a shadow symbol for a dog. But change the word around...the message is "god"...meaning Willow is now a god. Of course all of this could just be coincidence. I recognize that as well. It's just that I have a lot of fun seeing things which may or may not be accurate. It's so much more fun to speculate and learn later on whether it's true or false. The variant cover for the Willow one-shot was provided by Moline, not Jeanty. Pretty sure that Jeanty is contracted to provide a variant for each of the numbered issues, but as the one-shot wasn't numbered, Jeanty didn't provide that cover. Well, there you go. That cover is proof the hand drawn in ToYL in the Fray panel is not a quirk. It's deliberate.
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Post by wenxina on Mar 16, 2010 16:55:38 GMT -5
Deliberate for what? Willow's hand seems relatively normal on that cover, and she's a witch. So how is the "grotesque" hand used to signify witch? But if you're making the argument that the "reverse dog" = god, then more power to you. I don't think anyone disputes the fact that Willow's status is rather iffy since S7. Some people took Kennedy's "You're a goddess" statement literally, other didn't. But Willow's (im)mortality pretty much came into question several times in the one-shot. Coupled with the fact that her future self is somewhat other than human, guessing that she's a goddess of sorts really isn't a stretch at all. The "reverse dog" argument does seem like a stretch, which is wholly unnecessary for making an argument that Willow is a goddess.
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Mar 16, 2010 18:18:58 GMT -5
Deliberate for what? Willow's hand seems relatively normal on that cover, and she's a witch. So how is the "grotesque" hand used to signify witch? But if you're making the argument that the "reverse dog" = god, then more power to you. I don't think anyone disputes the fact that Willow's status is rather iffy since S7. Some people took Kennedy's "You're a goddess" statement literally, other didn't. But Willow's (im)mortality pretty much came into question several times in the one-shot. Coupled with the fact that her future self is somewhat other than human, guessing that she's a goddess of sorts really isn't a stretch at all. The "reverse dog" argument does seem like a stretch, which is wholly unnecessary for making an argument that Willow is a goddess. The grotesque looking hand does suggest we're talking about a dark witch. I also have to disagree with Maggie about the color of the nail polish. I've looked at it more closely and it's not pink. It's purple...which is Dark Willow's color. If this is true it means "good" Willow is killed and it's Dark Willow who pulls Buffy into the alternate universe.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 16, 2010 19:48:23 GMT -5
Well, the hand in question belongs to the pullee, not the puller. If anything is pulling her, it's the thing with the squiddy tentacle.
Looking at it, I don't think the hand is that grotesque looking. Looks like a pretty normal woman's hand with long fingernails and pinkish nail polish.
Joss hasn't given any indication this season that he's giving clues via such obscure references, and it wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't even remember what the hand looked like in "Fray."
He's also well within his rights to depart from what we saw illustrated in "Fray"... what we saw wasn't necessarily an illustration of what actually happened, but what Urkonn described as happening. He wasn't there, and was only telling Mel what he had heard. I don't see any reason for him to lie about the events, but I also don't think he'd be too familiar with the state of the Last Slayer's manicure either.
For now, I'm taking the scene as it appears: Buffy banishes demons and magic into another dimension, and gets sucked in after them. I doubt there's any reason it needs to be more complicated than that.
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nmcil
Common Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 54
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Post by nmcil on Mar 17, 2010 3:25:54 GMT -5
Angelus is a demon who drove Angel's soul out of his body and possessed it (gaining access to all its memories) when Angel was vamped by Darla in an alleyway in Galway 250 years ago. When Angel's soul is in his body, it dominates the demon Angelus and prevents it from acting... but the demon is still there, and gives Angel his vampire powers and vulnerabilities. Oh, I hate this explanation. Not yours, Andrew -- as this is what Angel: Season 4 made of it. But I've always despised the notion that Angelus is an entirely separate person. It's so much darker and more tragic when Angelus is simply Angel without conscience. He's essentially what Angel really is, he just tries to be better. I'm with you on this - I always hated this explanation and POV that Angel and Angelus are not the same entity - his story, IMO, only becomes compelling if the Angel is Angelus. If Angel was really this separate entity, where is the need for redemption, that is the fundamental basis for his entire story -
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Darth Rosie
Ensouled Vampire
I do doodle
Keeper of Didacity [? Astray][Mo0:12]
Posts: 1,392
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Post by Darth Rosie on Mar 17, 2010 4:35:03 GMT -5
If Angel was really this separate entity, where is the need for redemption, that is the fundamental basis for his entire story - Exactly. Very well put - Karma.
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jr24tw
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 44
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Post by jr24tw on Mar 17, 2010 18:44:40 GMT -5
I have another question regarding the dead Slayers. Is the number (206) in any way significant to what's happening? Because I always associate that number with the amount of bones in the human body.
Just wondering if the number had any meaning...
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 656
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Post by Nicholas on Mar 20, 2010 17:08:08 GMT -5
See, to me this is all making sense...
From the very beginning of the show, Buffy has wanted to feel connected to something, but couldnt. She fought being a Slayer at first simply because she wanted to be a normal girl and feel connected to the normal, human world, but she couldnt be. The entire show essentially is Buffy fighting for her connection to the normal world whether its attending High School or fighting to maintain her friendships with those around her. I truly believe that the only time she felt connected to anything was in Season 5 with Dawn, but the forces inside of her tried to push Dawn away, which is what many of the characters would complain about. Its a habit she has, and its basically because she straddles two worlds: human or Slayer. She was finally truly at peace when she died because she went out not only protecting the world, but using her one true connection (Dawn) as a power for good. If it werent for her being connected to Dawn, she wouldnt have been able to close the portal. Buffy stated she was finally "finished" and at peace, but was torn back into this world and no longer had a connection with anything, not even Dawn, whom we still havent learned whether or not she is still mystical or just a normal girl now. So she latches on to Spike so she can feel connected to something and that didnt work out.
Something people seem to forget is that while Buffy WAS technically seeing Spike at the time, she went off and kissed Angel in Chosen, simply to feel connected. Once the spell was cast by Willow, she still could not feel connected to her army...which plays into whatever Giles and Angel have hid from Buffy, which is apparently something only Buffy could have accomplished. So to say that Buffys need for a connection is only reflected in this season, is wrong. Its been reflected the course of the entire series.
Further more, Buffy FOUGHT and tried to kill Angel again, without holding back. It wasnt until this glow thing started that she goes towards him and kisses him. So in my own opinion, if it is a spell, its not the type we are thinking. The glowing is mearly a glamour to Angel providing her a connection to something, especially HIM of all people. He has hit her at her deepest level and whatever his motivations may be, he is going to use it to his advantage. Buffy will end up alone and beaten on that floor as we have seen, because she commited the biggest betrayal and hurt everyone around her and her own morals.
Just my opinion.
I also think that "Save the Prince" is a reference to Prince William. Wasnt it in a walk about dream with Ethan that that was mentioned by the demon? Prince William is alluding to Spike.
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shaz
Innocent Bystander
I've got 'Vorward momentum'![Mo0:18]
Posts: 27
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Post by shaz on Mar 20, 2010 18:48:37 GMT -5
I have another question regarding the dead Slayers. Is the number (206) in any way significant to what's happening? Because I always associate that number with the amount of bones in the human body. Just wondering if the number had any meaning... I wondered if the number had a significant meaning too....'206' 2=second letter of the alphabet, B and 6=the sixth letter F=-Buffy and Faith. But I'm sure this is just reading too much into it, although I love the fact it is also the number of bones in the human body! Is anyone else just dying to find out what is meant by 'The True History of the Universe'?! I find that even more exciting than the implications for Buffy/Angel/Twilght. Hopefully this means we'll have more story for Giles (how DOES he know all about this?), Willow (has she been mislead? by who?) and Faith (as this seems to affect her too).
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Mar 21, 2010 11:00:33 GMT -5
I have another question regarding the dead Slayers. Is the number (206) in any way significant to what's happening? Because I always associate that number with the amount of bones in the human body. Just wondering if the number had any meaning... I wondered if the number had a significant meaning too....'206' 2=second letter of the alphabet, B and 6=the sixth letter F=-Buffy and Faith. But I'm sure this is just reading too much into it, although I love the fact it is also the number of bones in the human body! Is anyone else just dying to find out what is meant by 'The True History of the Universe'?! I find that even more exciting than the implications for Buffy/Angel/Twilght. Hopefully this means we'll have more story for Giles (how DOES he know all about this?), Willow (has she been mislead? by who?) and Faith (as this seems to affect her too). If Willow has been mislead there are two candidates right now. One is Dawn. Dawn lied to Willow and she wasn't able to help Dawn from her own curse. Otherwise Willow would have stopped it from causing her to change into a giant, a centaurette, and a doll. The other candidate who may be lying to Willow is Aluwyn. From other posts on various boards - the speculation is Willow and Aluwyn are lovers in the "future"...meaning Willow isn't cheating on Kennedy now. She's simultaneously having a relationship with Kennedy "now" and also having an affair with Aluwyn in the future all at the same time. Whew! Got that so far? The problem is we don't really know who Aluwyn is or "what" she is. She's a snake woman...and isn't it interesting that when the vampire witch Kumiko tried to kill Willow she mentioned that she had been watching Willow's "ascension" for quite some time. The last time I heard that comment "ascension" was when we had Mayor Wilkins back in Season 4. So it's possible Aluwyn has been lying to Willow for reasons unknown right now about her true intentions for Willow and Willow is literally in the dark about what's going on around her. How any of this ties into Twilight is beyond me at this point. But the one thought that's been in the back of my mind is that Angel and Aluwyn have been colluding together in some grand scheme. Now if Angel is still working for the side of good...then this means Willow has been lied to by Aluwyn and Angel has the goods on how to stop her. The question becomes why and for what reason?
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NileQT87
Common Vampire
Little Funky Angel[Mo0:3]
Posts: 78
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Post by NileQT87 on Mar 21, 2010 11:14:06 GMT -5
Somehow I think Twilight/Angel and Aluwyn have entirely different motives. Angel specifically mentions that demons aren't happy with Buffy/Willow's spell and want the balance to flip back. Aluwyn is not a trustworthy demon and this was shown in the Willow one-shot. Kimiko was another one of Aluwyn's students and the whole purpose behind what Toru was doing was to remove the Slayer spell and restore balance! IMO, I think Aluwyn is the demon that Angel was referring to when he said that demons weren't happy with the Slayer spell. Aluwyn is using Willow, IMO.
And I still think Angel's big plan has to be throwing the demons and mystical beings, himself and Buffy included, out of the dimension. Something like Aluwyn would certainly hate that plan. So would Willow, for that matter. And dark-Willow's future presence would explain how magic started leaking back in during Fray's time after a 200-year absence.
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Mar 21, 2010 11:45:24 GMT -5
Somehow I think Twilight/Angel and Aluwyn have entirely different motives. Angel specifically mentions that demons aren't happy with Buffy/Willow's spell and want the balance to flip back. Aluwyn is not a trustworthy demon and this was shown in the Willow one-shot. Kimiko was another one of Aluwyn's students and the whole purpose behind what Toru was doing was to remove the Slayer spell and restore balance! IMO, I think Aluwyn is the demon that Angel was referring to when he said that demons weren't happy with the Slayer spell. Aluwyn is using Willow, IMO. And I still think Angel's big plan has to be throwing the demons and mystical beings, himself and Buffy included, out of the dimension. Something like Aluwyn would certainly hate that plan. So would Willow, for that matter. And dark-Willow's future presence would explain how magic started leaking back in during Fray's time after a 200-year absence. If Willow knew she was being lied to by Aluwyn I don't think she'd be happy about that. Plus I believe Willow already knows that Angel "won" the first time by having Buffy abandon Willow in a magic less world. So what we saw in ToYL was Angel's victory the "first time" around during the time line loop. The second time is where Willow gets her revenge on Angel for not trusting her. Angel definitely doesn't know Buffy killed her in that 200 year future. Imagine Angel's shock at seeing Willow's counter move on the chessboard for planning her own death 200 years into the future. Allowing her magic to seep back into the present with enough magic power to fight him and Buffy if necessary.
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Post by wenxina on Mar 21, 2010 12:14:29 GMT -5
Who said anyone had to purposely mislead Willow? All that's been said so far is that Willow hasn't necessarily got the whole story, and that her assumptions are flawed because she doesn't understand the full scope of things.
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Mar 21, 2010 13:11:11 GMT -5
Who said anyone had to purposely mislead Willow? All that's been said so far is that Willow hasn't necessarily got the whole story, and that her assumptions are flawed because she doesn't understand the full scope of things. Which means Willow is still in the dark...even after issues 34 and 35. The Scoobies are still separated. Remember, Giles is with Faith and Andrew in Angel's HQ. Willow, Xander and Satsu are in the forest or Willow's "secret" HQ that Amy found out about. So while Buffy and Angel do the "f@%#ing" in issue 34...where is everyone else? We know Giles starts telling Andrew and Faith the "real story" about the secret history of the slayers and vampires. The images on Scott Allie's desk are showing scenes of Willow getting her powers back in a flashback panel. Willow is looking very shocked. But whatever she learns is NOT from Giles...but directly from the computer she's looking at over Dawn's shoulders. People have been assuming this is Angel's HQ showing Xander, Dawn, Amy and Willow. It's still outside Angel's HQ. Otherwise it would make no sense for Willow to look shocked at something she's learned from Giles. This assumes they're all together at Angel's hideout. But logic suggests this doesn't make much sense.
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Post by wenxina on Mar 21, 2010 17:15:49 GMT -5
Which means Willow is still in the dark...even after issues 34 and 35. The Scoobies are still separated. Remember, Giles is with Faith and Andrew in Angel's HQ. Willow, Xander and Satsu are in the forest or Willow's "secret" HQ that Amy found out about. So while Buffy and Angel do the "f@%#ing" in issue 34...where is everyone else? We know Giles starts telling Andrew and Faith the "real story" about the secret history of the slayers and vampires. The images on Scott Allie's desk are showing scenes of Willow getting her powers back in a flashback panel. Willow is looking very shocked. But whatever she learns is NOT from Giles...but directly from the computer she's looking at over Dawn's shoulders. People have been assuming this is Angel's HQ showing Xander, Dawn, Amy and Willow. It's still outside Angel's HQ. Otherwise it would make no sense for Willow to look shocked at something she's learned from Giles. This assumes they're all together at Angel's hideout. But logic suggests this doesn't make much sense. Pray tell how you conclude that Willow is still in the dark AFTER #34 and #35. The pages seen on Scott's desk had to be either from #34, or #35. I find it more likely that they were from #34, as Jeanty was only finishing up, or had just recently finished the pencils for #35 then. Those pages were finished, complete with color and letters. Willow's assumption is that Buffy is sucking the power from dead Slayers. From what we've heard so far, that may not be entirely accurate. And that's not Willow behind Dawn. That's Amy. Check the hair color, and the clothing color. Willow and Amy appear to be wearing the same colors they were in #33, when they performed the de-cloaking spell. So your entire sequence of events, and your understanding of how it must make sense appears to be flawed. And hell, the entire image is so poor that the text is entirely unreadable. For all we know, Willow just saw Kennedy and Satsu sharing a kiss. I'm not serious about that last one, but I think the point is clear. We don't have any context for those panels at all. Some of us have surmised that given the panel revisiting Willow's re-empowerment, she probably finally understood where that power comes from. Or something along those lines. But I guess we'll see in a couple of weeks. But there's nothing to conclusively suggest that Willow is learning anything from a computer, since Willow isn't even the one behind Dawn.
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Mar 21, 2010 19:15:16 GMT -5
As for Willow realizing where her powers are coming from...I can speculate that they're from either her own future death or from Aluwyn. If it's from the former I fail to see why Willow would be so shocked...she did hear the news from Buffy herself. Granted it may be disheartening for Willow to realize Buffy wasn't kidding about what happened 200 years into the future...but still, shocked? Willow should be grateful she's learning about her awful fate now so she can do something to prevent it from happening.
Now it could actually be the latter. If that's the case, I'm curious to know why Willow would be shocked about getting it from Saga Vasuki. If those powers are from Saga...I'm guessing there's a hidden consequence to having those powers that involves Willow herself. It may have something to do with the comment Saga says when Willow was free falling from the building in Japan when she says to Willow: "Willow Dear. Did you think you can hide from me? Did you think you can hide from what you are and what's to come?" I looked at that image. Saga Vasuki's hair is in flames and the world...in NY is in flames. Willow sees the Slayer Scythe in that vision.
I think we're about to find out what Willow "is"...and I think she's not a witch anymore. As for the images in Scott Allie's Twitter page. The woman in the back has to be Amy because her hair is brown. However there is a computer panel that Dawn is looking at and Willow is directly behind her. She has her hand to her mouth looking shocked at something. I could be wrong about that but the woman sitting in the chair in front of Willow can't be Amy. Her hair is darker than Amy's so it's Dawn.
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Post by wenxina on Mar 21, 2010 20:01:32 GMT -5
As for the images in Scott Allie's Twitter page. The woman in the back has to be Amy because her hair is brown. However there is a computer panel that Dawn is looking at and Willow is directly behind her. She has her hand to her mouth looking shocked at something. I could be wrong about that but the woman sitting in the chair in front of Willow can't be Amy. Her hair is darker than Amy's so it's Dawn. Look again. Top left panel: Dawn's looking at a screen or something, and Amy is behind her. Bottom right panel: That's Xander and a shocked-looking Willow.
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