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Post by wenxina on Jul 5, 2010 22:15:22 GMT -5
When I reviewed "Retreat", I already covered the whole Boddhisatva stuff. In other words, did the research on all three goddesses, their appearances, the symbolism, etc. I've reread the arc multiple times over, and really, it fails on a fundamental storytelling aspect. The entire arc basically stinks at pacing itself. It spins its wheels, then throws a lot of stuff at us towards the end, including internal continuity errors (see Monroe's death, then non-death). There'll be no change in marks for execution, whatever the outcome of the season may be. "Retreat" remains poorly written. Buffy looking into Remati's eyes is a red herring of sorts, no? Initially, that was the assumption that many had. It's not an unreasonable assumption, since Buffy's god-like powers were apparent after she was dropped by Remati. However, from what we know now, her newfound powers are the product of the universe's grand plan. Nothing to do with the goddesses at all.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 5, 2010 15:14:55 GMT -5
Well, you can be a good dancer, and not be a good cheerleader. I mean, Dawn's moves weren't exactly of the klutzy variety when she was shimmying at the Bronze with the guy in the letterman jacket. Plus, she also showed that she can handle weapons at the end of S6, fighting shoulder to shoulder with Buffy. Wielding weapons usually requires a certain amount of finesse. But cheerleading... whole other animal. Usually of the more feral variety.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 5, 2010 9:56:04 GMT -5
See, I wasn't arguing that the execution was right in "Retreat". "Retreat" is where the art did fail to convey the horror of the massacre. Problem is, I don't think the writing gave too much space for that... the last couple of issues of "Retreat" felt really rushed, and the quality of the writing was more chaotic than the scenes we were supposed to get. However, I stand by my assertion that the ending of "Turbulence" was indeed played for laughs. I mean, if nothing else, the last couple of panels of Buffy and Willow discussing Xander and Dawn cement that idea. The gravity of that particular issue lay in the Buffy/Xander talk. That was the emotional core of that story. And that played out as sensitively as could be expected. The fight with the goddesses at the end... not so much. That's where the laughs come in, to offer a momentary respite from the gloom and doom from the previous issues, and setting us up for the next arc.
Space sex was never funny to me. I personally didn't think it was being played for laughs, but I know some people thought it was funny. And hey, it's reader response, so it's valid.
As for things being too over-the-top to care... that's not entirely true. "OMWF" is a totally over-the-top episode, and yet, there is plenty of stuff to care about. As much of a failure that "Retreat" was, its final pages made me care. "Turbulence" made me care a whole lot. The beginning of "Twilight" was great... the later parts still questionable to me in terms of execution, but that's mostly because I need to know how it all plays out before I stamp it either a failure or success. However, I'd also point out that it's also possible that the reason why the gravity of the moment never takes hold for some is because they already checked out of the story. It's entirely possible, and quite natural for one's dislike of a particular story element to kick one out of the story.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 5, 2010 7:55:13 GMT -5
See, you say it's subliminal. But it's so nuanced and complex it's unclear what's real and what's not real. We haven't seen enough to dismiss her feelings for Xander. It's only just begun. That's why I say it's premature. Not denying the possibility. I think I argued along the same lines when I said that we don't have evidence showing definitely either way. And hey, I don't want it to be true, I'm a diehard Spuffy fan, but I can see it's in the cards and hasn't fully gone away. To say it's gone for good and both parties have moved on feels premature to me. What's more, it's putting down a potential storyline full of angst in the future. There's more drama left to be had. I think it was implicit in my post that what I'm saying is that it's gone for now. Probably for good. Dunno. But it's a storyline that's kinda gone on for a while now, and I know a few Banders who've caught their breath at every single tease of a possibility. At the moment, I liked how their roles were reversed from what they were earlier on. Prepared? Not exactly. Willing to try? Yes. But wanting to be open is very different from being prepared to be open. Her desperation at being alone pushed her into following him. Being prepared to be open is another matter. Does she even know how? Ship much? Perhaps it wasn't desperation so much as she did love him? She said she did. She told him that much. And she was wistful about the missed opportunity in "As You Were". But back to the topic at hand. She was open before. That's not the issue. The issue is after the Angel drama, she closed herself. So she knows how to be open. So, IMO, when she decided to run for Riley, she was prepared to reopen her heart to him. I'm not a fan of the ultimatum he gave her, her response to it was pretty fair. BUT... I'm in the camp where that relationship failed because of things they both said/did and didn't say/do. Her willingness to be open was possibly the only good outcome of that ultimatum. Which probably made it that more painful to watch him leave her life that way. PS: I was teasing, btw, about the "ship much?"
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Post by wenxina on Jul 4, 2010 18:31:59 GMT -5
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Post by wenxina on Jul 4, 2010 12:40:00 GMT -5
It's the same link. I didn't see her link before posting it. From what I know, this is not the only version of the book. I think Titan had a print too.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 4, 2010 12:01:17 GMT -5
I think Angel + Sex = bad. Unless it's the kind of sex where he's punished for being a bad, naughty lying wannabe supervillain... What's Spanley? Is that Spangel + Wesley? So you're advocating ghost!sex? I think taken in the context of the Spanley statement, we can safely assume that I meant Spike/Angel/Riley. Since all 3 were previously involved with Buffy, and seeing all 3 of them together sans her would be taking her dream in "Always Darkest" to the next level. As for Buffy's feelings for Xander, I'm on the fence. I think it's premature to say she doesn't have real feelings for him, just as it's premature to say she absolutely is full-out in love with him. There's something there and it's definitely more than sibling rivalry, so I can say that Xander's offbase. Actually, Xander's way offbase in saying she went through gay before considering him--she'd been considering him in her dreams before Satsu was even on her radar. In fact, one could say she went to Satsu because Satsu could handle a relationship with a Slayer. Buffy didn't pursue her feelings with Xander because she was afraid he'd end up dead or she'd lose him like all her other lovers (as she confesses her issues in A Beautiful Sunset). It's only when she feels normal and just human in Retreat that she starts to see Xander as a real possiblity--she's no longer the Slayer, so they can be together. Only she's too late. If anything, Xander completely doesn't understand why Buffy went through her "gay phase" and has relationships with vampires. She's afraid of hurting those she loves and Xander's the last person she wants to hurt or lose--she loves him too much, plus she's terrified of intimacy and opening up. So yeah, Xander's diagnosis? Pretty much BS. It'd be like saying Buffy and Spike were never going to get together even though they had so much interesting chemistry for a few years and then Something Blue happened. Storylines like this don't just get put aside. Fantasies aren't always subliminal desires. They really aren't. She was lonely and horny. Xander popped into a fantasy or two. Doesn't mean that she wanted him then. Or at least seriously contemplated it. And as far as Xander knew, she went to gay before she got to him. So it's not BS. It's a shrewd observation from his POV. And what does it matter what his opinion is? The point I made is that it was moot. Xander had moved on. Technically, he moved on a long time ago. Remember that confession he made to Anya in "Into the Woods"? The part where he's absolutely, scarily in love with her because of all that she is. The part where he tells her that she's the first person he's felt that way about. How she makes him feel like a man. At that point, to me, Xander was officially over Buffy as a romantic interest. And sibling rivalry was not the only reason Xander gave. His more shrewd point, and it's a fair one, is that he thinks he's in love with Dawn. And Dawn's loved him her entire life (which, creepily enough, is kinda true, since she pretty much arrived all fourteen and hormonally-driven). And that they're happy. And that regardless of whether or not Buffy felt it before he and Dawn hooked up, she should have stayed quiet about it. As for Satsu being able to handle a relationship with a Slayer... sure. But I think the subtle distinction to be made is whether or not Satsu could handle being in a relationship with Buffy. Buffy, is damaged goods. She has issues and more baggage than Kimora Lee has Louis Vuitton suitcases. Of the two, Satsu and Xander, that is, I think Xander was better equipped to handle a relationship with Buffy. But, in respect to the reoccurring theme of being "too late", Buffy misses that boat with Xander, just as she missed it with Riley (funny how they're both human, and military affiliated). She was prepared to let herself be open in "Into the Woods", but he was airborne by the time she got there.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 4, 2010 11:23:32 GMT -5
The fight with the goddesses was supposed to be laughable, IMO. You have Buffy, tiny as a gnat to these goddesses doing the Atom Ant. They weren't aiming for gravity at that point. We had an issue of them stomping around, wreaking havoc. Then, for the most part of #31, we had Willow trying to do battle with them, but being tossed about like a ball. And in trademark irreverence, Buffy dispatches with the goddesses in a matter of seconds. It's the moment where the seemingly insurmountable odds are beaten. Popeye and his spinach, perhaps?
I disagree that the book hasn't honored the "horror" bits when called for, since "Retreat". I think the best example that defies that statement in in #32, when Willow starts finding the dead girls everywhere. There is a palpable sense of horror every time she "fwit"-ted to a new location. And despite how the rest of "Twilight" played out (which, btw, according to my reviews, I mostly liked... some things here and there that worried me, but I'll wait until I read Joss' last issue before I deal with those), #32 was exceptionally well-written. Many of us (including you) were impressed with Meltzer's handle of the book then, and had high hopes for the rest of his run.
I would love for Jeanty to continue. His work doesn't have the gritty realism of say John Cassaday's stuff, or the extreme quirk of Frank Quitely, but he manages to tread a pretty good balance of the two. I'm currently going through BtVS again with my boy... we're in S5 now. And so far, there has always been an element of farce in most of the episodes. Even the tougher eps have some of that. There's hardly an episode where everything is just gloom and doom (I think "The Body" is one of the few exceptions, and even then, there's some punning with Dawn and that guy, before she finds out about Joyce). The show's always kept one foot in the horror genre, but stuck the other one where it pleased. I guess what I'm saying is that Jeanty's art matches the tone of the show. So, do I know that he will stay on for S9? No. He has worked hard for about 4 years now, and I can understand him wanting to take a break, or move on to shorter, more varied gigs. And given the revamped format of S9 (shorter more self-contained arcs, from my understanding), I've a feeling that Dark Horse may adopt the philosophy of the Batman and Robin books written by Grant Morrison, where a single artist is only attached to the project for 3-issue arcs at a time. If that's the case, I'd expect that Jeanty will get a callback, but he won't be the primary artist of S9. Perhaps we'll hear some more talk about S9 at SDCC...
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Post by wenxina on Jul 4, 2010 11:06:02 GMT -5
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Post by wenxina on Jul 4, 2010 9:44:51 GMT -5
The coloring should match the art style, though. While I understand what you're saying about needing to set a darker mood, Madsen's colors have always employed a more saturated and yes, cartoony palette. That's just her style, and it works well with Jeanty's more cartoony pencils. Mantovani was working with Urru's already more moody style. And it was set at night. In hell. All things that build on each other. Madsen was working with Jeanty's more cartoony style, and it was set in the day. Unless there was some kind of artificial conceit, like the smoke cover in The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, it wouldn't have been dark and gloomy. Just as I'm sure wars don't appear dark and gloomy to the people fighting them during the day. But hey, "Retreat" was a clumsily executed arc. The pacing was all wrong, and there's blame enough to go around. I wish I felt the Espenson love, really, but as far as S8 goes, she's been one of the poorer contributors, IMO.
But hey, the return of Joss... that's gotta be good, right?
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Post by wenxina on Jul 3, 2010 16:57:54 GMT -5
There is no evidence that she's wrong, neither is there evidence that she's right. She realizes that it's a moot point, and her and Xander reach an understanding of sorts. The sexual tension is put out there in the open, addressed, and they move on.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 3, 2010 13:28:22 GMT -5
Ive sent in my entry cant wait to see the other entries! A fantastic competition wish we had more hand drawn competitions! ;D Your entry has been added to the list. Thanks.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 3, 2010 9:26:32 GMT -5
Discussion of the issues/themes/execution of the story/etc can be conducted in one of the already existing threads. There is no need to start a new one on the matter. I'm locking this one down, and will delete it later today.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 2, 2010 21:03:17 GMT -5
Unless those feelings, as Xander said, weren't real. Some people saw signs of Bander-ness happening right from the first arc. Me, I personally didn't see it that way. I did see some overt signs in "Retreat", which were then settled in "Turbulence". I personally think it's up for debate if Buffy really wanted Xander, or just saw him as a no-brainer (he's a good friend, a good man, and she does love him dearly).
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Post by wenxina on Jul 2, 2010 17:26:53 GMT -5
She confessed her feelings for Xander, but those feelings have been squashed by Xander. Basically telling her that the ship had sailed, and she missed it. Also, he kinda called her out on being selfish, and also insinuated that it was perhaps partially due to sibling rivalry.
But heck, Buffy is a grown-ass woman. She gets to sleep with whomever she chooses. Why should her having sex with Angel make her look bad? Especially with the whole universe pushing for coitus. I don't ship, so who she has sex with is largely inconsequential to me. I will however stand for the right of an adult woman to choose to express her sexuality how she pleases.
That said, no, I don't seriously think there's more time for sexcapades. But then again, imminent doom has always made the Scoobies randy.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 2, 2010 16:12:25 GMT -5
It was a joke that Joss made in passing, but since of late, a lot of his "jokes" have had some element of truth in them, some people are speculating that there will indeed by two issues of sex with Spike. Who knows... the perves may be right. I'll take my Spangel to go, please. Spanley could be even better... that will absolutely piss Buffy off, in context of her dream in "Always Darkest".
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Post by wenxina on Jul 2, 2010 14:02:59 GMT -5
Hi wenxina, thanks for the headsup about Not receiving my entry, I resent it yesterday as a reply to your email. I hope you got it, it not, something seems to be very wrong with my email system...please let me know what's happening! Thanks!! Hey, something must be going wrong somewhere, since I didn't receive it again. Do you have another e-mail address you can send it from? Or, if that fails, you could send me a private message with a link to the image (Photobucket or something like that), and I'll take it from there.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 1, 2010 20:57:24 GMT -5
Two more weeks to go, folks. Remember, deadline is 12:00pm CST, July 15th 2010. Work hard at those entries. It's really not that hard... currently working on a third potential entry... need to pick one which I like best. So bring on the good stuff!
ETA: Yes, I did change the order of prizes a little. I thought that the hardcover was going to be more substantial than what it was, so I had placed both MDHP volumes as third place prizes. However, I've since switched one of the MDHP volumes over to 2nd prize, to make the prizes more accurately reflect the placing.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 1, 2010 20:50:43 GMT -5
Well, weren't a few of the previous ones also formatted in 3D for IMAX release?
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Post by wenxina on Jul 1, 2010 14:42:30 GMT -5
Isn't the man just one giant gimmick anyway? Never actually watched any of his films, but can't say I'm too impressed by what I've heard of his films in general. Usually along the lines of the first two being good (think Bruce Willis is the magic factor?), the rest pretty much amounting to flatulence.
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