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Post by hitnrun017 on Apr 8, 2010 12:30:01 GMT -5
I really don't think it's OOC for them, even Angel doing the things he did as Twilight. They started the sex on their own and then the universe escalated it to epic proportions. What did Buffy find sexy about discovering Angel to be Twilight? This is something I haven't been able to get past since #33. Wanting to have sex with someone who's done the things he's done to her and her friends... Slayers continuing to die even as they kissed... was utterly contemptible, and borderline sociopathic, if it was done with free will. If it's in character, then they're not characters I really want to see good things happen to. That's something I'm just not ever going to be okay with, no matter what. It's a huge, huge problem for me. An existential problem, as far as my fandom is concerned. There's an awful lot riding on these remaining 6 issues. The characters aren't perfect and make huge mistakes. Yeah, it can be seen as sick and gross, and there obviously is something bigger at work that could have made Buffy kiss Angel and start the new reality, but if it didn't... well, bring on the fallout. Angel makes huge sacrifices for the greater good, for all we know Twilight is a good thing, maybe he has been misled. Buffy having sex with a soulless vampire who's probably murdered thousands of people is looked at as no biggie. And I have a bigger problem with her going after Faith with the intention of murder than kissing Angel. Regardless of all that, it makes for a good story. Whether they are or aren't in control, I'm more than excited for what's to come. |
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jellymoff
Ensouled Vampire
Claimer of Funn[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,174
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Post by jellymoff on Apr 8, 2010 13:48:52 GMT -5
Yeah, we're dealing with some big, heavy stakes here. Heh. Heavy Stakes. |
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alex_krycek
Rogue Demon Hunter
keeper of the x-files
sorry, i just remembered seeing king ralph[Mo0:30]
Posts: 484
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Post by alex_krycek on Apr 8, 2010 14:19:30 GMT -5
I'm holding out hope that Buffy ditches her new digs on the Twilight plane with Angel, to go and save her friends and the world along with Spike against the demons and the Old Ones. She'd be losing "heaven" for a second time. That's also what i'm hoping for. She would be willingly choosing her life(and all it entails) over heaven. Which imo would make Buffy awesome! i like your thoughts. it reminds me of grave, the season finale for season six. buffy crawled out of the grave because she really wanted to live. to be a sister and friend. and now joss will offer her paradise + angel, at the cost of the lives of EVERYBODY on earth. will buffy turn it down? i hope so. |
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Post by wenxina on Apr 8, 2010 14:23:30 GMT -5
Well, if she doesn't, I guess S9 will just be Buffy and Angel dancing about in Twilight (or the Twilight Zone). Drinking nectar and boinking, making new realities, birthing new stars, consuming galaxies.
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Post by Wyndam on Apr 8, 2010 14:27:18 GMT -5
Hehe, maybe Zeus will be the Big Bad then.  |
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Apr 8, 2010 14:30:17 GMT -5
Well, if she doesn't, I guess S9 will just be Buffy and Angel dancing about in Twilight (or the Twilight Zone). Drinking nectar and boinking, making new realities, birthing new stars, consuming galaxies. Maybe they'll get some gold body paint and snooty attitudes and become the new Oracles! After all, there should be hundreds of different worlds they haven't murdered yet. Those worlds will need their impeccable moral guidance. (You just know the Oracles were boffing constantly. That's why they were always so eager for Angel to leave them alone.) |
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Post by wenxina on Apr 8, 2010 14:50:05 GMT -5
But the Oracles spoke for the PTBs. They weren't invincible gods. Birthing new stars... that's truly stuff of the Big Bang variety (wow, was that pun just walk-into-able).
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Apr 8, 2010 15:05:49 GMT -5
I think they've agreed not to birth any new stars. Buffy wants to keep her figure.
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The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
Posts: 1,674
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Post by The Girl In Question on Apr 8, 2010 16:51:56 GMT -5
I just read the issue on the train. Even as a Bangel fan my reaction is pretty much "WTF?" and "Ewz, TMI!" But mostly "WTF?"
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Post by VampSlayer on Apr 9, 2010 0:13:48 GMT -5
Just read the issue...
Some things made sense, but overall, everything didn't connect. I was left with a 'WTF is happening' face on me.
The Buffy/Angel scenes were pretty... Odd to look at. In my personal opinion, I think they should have used less space to show us sex, and more to explain what the hell is happening.
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Post by buffyfan21 on Apr 9, 2010 1:08:38 GMT -5
Okay, so it's 2 am here and I just finished reading the issue. Can't really form a thought right now b/c I am in such a state of shock (also, it's 2am)! I am definitely going to have to read the issue again tomorrow, because I was so distracted by all the sexcapades, that I didn't really get much of what was going on otherwise. I think it's fair to say that Buffy and Angel are making up for lost time! And wow, the comic medium certainly allows our characters to get away with things they never could have on the television series! It's like Spuffy in season 6 only amplified to the maximum degree (and I never thought anything could be as bad as that; I've been proven wrong)!
Well, I'm gonna catch some Z's (and possibly a cold shower) but I will have more to say tomorrow after the shock has worn off some and I've read the issue again.
Night all!
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richie
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:1]
Posts: 170
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Post by richie on Apr 9, 2010 8:13:41 GMT -5
ok, i just read the issue and OMG!!!
buffysutra apart i loved the issue...
i think it explayned a lot of things...
i now know why angel is the twilight(and probably que prince?) or better, WHAT the twilight is...
would it be the creation of a new world? like giles just said, where humans doesnt matter at all cause they the inferior breed???
i'm loving what is happening. its so big, so gigantic....
buffy and angel are gods now.
and this brings a lot of others questions, like does angel get to have sperms?(hehehe)
my point is, buffy could get pregnent and give birth to a new kind of humas\slayer?
and will they stop F******* and be able to see that they opened a gate to new superpowered demons?
i got a lot of questions anwsered and a hole new set of questions....
and other thing we now know what the symbol means???
would it be the sky and the gate to the new dimension reality i dont know???
theres a lot of things that i didnt get it, like, why are they showing the past?
does that means that buffy and angel are time traveling? and if thats true, what this could possible means???
could this kill willow and/or everybody?
cause if its changing the past bufy could never kill angel in the end of season two, wich would bring the end of the world(i think it was acathla the name of the demon/statue)...
sorry about the big post, but big issue big coments....
it was just scott said... theres a lot that we don't know....
and as far as i'm concerned nor angel or buffy are in their perfect state of mind....
its like giles said, its nature that is pulling the strings...
so for me angel's not fully responsebly for the killing think he did....
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Apr 9, 2010 8:22:17 GMT -5
If Buffy and Angel's purpose here is to create a new race, and "the Universe" already thinks it's time to exterminate the existing human race, then I'd say it's a given that Buffy is now pregnant.
(Which would finally answer the question of who "The Prince" is.)
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Post by wenxina on Apr 9, 2010 8:31:35 GMT -5
Cue my rather absurd little theory (concocted while cooking eggs, mind you) from last month that the offspring will be Harth and Melaka...
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Apr 9, 2010 9:00:06 GMT -5
Cue my rather absurd little theory (concocted while cooking eggs, mind you) from last month that the offspring will be Harth and Melaka... If they travelled through time, as Amy suspects they did, then it would be possible for Buffy to have kids 200 years younger than her, I guess. I don't think any mention of Mel and Harth's parents was ever made. They seem to have been raised by Erin. If your theory is correct, that would mean Erin is probably not really Mel and Harth's sister. And the fact that Erin didn't recognize Buffy in ToYL means it wasn't Buffy who recruited Erin to take care of them. (Maybe it was Willow?) But while Mel and Harth certainly have their skills and abilities, do they really seem like "master super-race" material? Here's my newest incorrect theory: The Fraypocalypse is happening right now. The Slayer who banishes the demons is Faith, not Buffy. Faith uses the Scythe to concentrate into herself the power of all the world's Slayers (thus permanently de-powering them all) and does the deed, but is almost killed by the magic overload. Giles steps in to save her, sacrificing himself, and is transformed by the magic into what will one day be Gates, Melaka's demon monkey companion. Buffy is swept away along with the other demons, and finds herself trapped in Hell, where she is tortured in a world of her own nightmares (hence the #37 cover). The surviving Scoobies spend the next arc trying to rescue her, and possibly debating whether or not they should. ETA: Mel seems to have learned about Gates's past by reading through the journals in the Watchers' Library... if she did, it's entirely possible she could mis-read someone's 200-year-old handwriting and mistake "Giles" for "Gates." |
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Post by buffyfan21 on Apr 9, 2010 10:18:34 GMT -5
If Buffy and Angel's purpose here is to create a new race, and "the Universe" already thinks it's time to exterminate the existing human race, then I'd say it's a given that Buffy is now pregnant. (Which would finally answer the question of who "The Prince" is.) That was my theory all along. |
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Post by Emmie on Apr 9, 2010 10:48:35 GMT -5
I'm not completely sold on Buffy and Angel not having any free will either. Angel's a question mark since we don't know his whole story. We know the universe "urged" them on, but as Willow said, love and passion are strong. While it's controversial, I really don't think it's OOC for them, even Angel doing the things he did as Twilight. They started the sex on their own and then the universe escalated it to epic proportions. After it's all said it done, Buffy seems like her normal-self, just flustered over the aftermath, which will lead into some major dramzzz. So insanely excited for next month. It'll be interesting if they weren't in control of anything, but that'd seem kind of cheap character wise, an easy way out. I think it's that the glow amps up their emotions, taking the strong feelings they already have for each other and increasing them exponentially with the magic "urging" of the Universe. So where Buffy would continue to say "Screw you for lying to me, you betrayed me and hurt me. No, I'm not in the mood to sleep with you immediately upon discovering your deception" the glow amps up the emotion until it's all hearts and love and sex. It's the definition of emotion overpowering reason. Using the "Power of Love" to overthrow reason. This is why I find it so disturbing from a woman's standpoint. Because that's the misogynist insult, that a woman only thinks with her emotions, that she'll always fall prey to them. Buffy emotionally retreats when she feels betrayed. There's simply no way it's in-character for her to dive into sex after the revelation that Angel has been lying to her all season. It doesn't even matter if she believes he's not a "bad guy". He still lied and betrayed her and that's where it hurts, if not for the 206 girls whose deaths are weighing on her. Remember when Buffy saw Angel acting like Angelus in Enemies? She was aware of the deception then but it still emotionally rocked her. He wasn't even actively betraying her then and she needed to take some time and put emotional distance between them. (Buffy emotionally retreats when she feels betrayed. And I don't think she's sleeping with Angel as a form of self-punishment like she was with Spike.) What Angel did as Twilight is exponentially prefixy worse. So for Buffy to immediately jump from rage to sex is very clearly a violation of what she'd normally do. And as has been suggested elsewhere, it's not the same as Spike in Season 6. That was a clear link between sex and violence on a personal level. But Buffy didn't feel personally betrayed by Spike, Spike didn't gather up the demons of Sunnydale to attack her friends. Or imagine it hypothetically happening in Season 7 where Spike leads to the deaths of Potentials under Buffy's care. A Buffy of sound mind wouldn't immediately jump on Spike, no matter her personal feelings. The glow is essentially the trigger for Spike in Season 7, only it appears to be somewhat less about complete control. It's an urging of the heart, amping it up to an undeniable degree. So yeah, I find the sex squicky for this reason. And I think it does lend itself to a rape metaphor. But AndrewC is right that the writers are walking a tightrope between betrayer and rape victim. |
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Post by wenxina on Apr 9, 2010 11:41:20 GMT -5
Hey Em! Meltzer made Faith call Giles "G"!!!  I guess they're keeping it consistent... |
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Post by Mr. Savath Bunny on Apr 9, 2010 11:50:04 GMT -5
I think Emmie's response to the "glow factor" is spot on. At first I was like -pshaaa, its not rape.... But taking into consideration what Emmie was talking about it makes sense.
That glow might even be a way to let readers visually understand it. Like When Cordy and Angel got all hot and heavy when they were at the opera; in comic form we might not get that "possession' feeling and just be like WTFJ? (The J = Joss)
With Buffy and Angel, it’s less possession but those feelings being boiled to the top. Something primal inside of them "knows" what they need to do.
It’s possible that even if Buffy wasn't this slayer to begin a new race and it was Faith, I think the same reaction would have occurred even though Faith doesn’t love Angel like Buffy does. That love just makes the situation a whole lot messier.
Even Angel talked about how it’s a deeper feeling that was even there back is S1 when he first saw Buffy – inside they knew there was something magnetic between them, and of course they assume its “love” but apparently its “Twilight” (too).
I think the glow is really a representation of something less rapey but more instinct. Maybe Buffy and Angel want each other (like they always have) but the glowy thrall just crashed through the barriers of reason and rationality to get to what the universe "needs."
Maybe a part of the universe tried to stop this by putting Angel in the path of getting “cursed” so this situation wouldn’t occur. If Angel remained cursed he and Buffy could never be together, but now that they’ve apparently ascended to being higher beings, it changes things entirely. In retrospective, when Buffy died the world continued on and was decent, but the First even knew that Buffy’s resurrection was something pivotal. Maybe Angel was supposed to stayed cursed and Buffy was supposed to stay dead post-S5. Crazy. My heads exploding.
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Post by Emmie on Apr 9, 2010 11:54:13 GMT -5
Yeah, and Vaughan remains the only one to write a truly nuanced Faith, imo. So what's new? I've gotten used to Character Voice fail. I've had to, haha. Though mostly it's the case of non-Lynch Angel writing for numerous characters. I think it's lowered my standards. Something in the ballpark now is marginally acceptable.
I've gotta say besides the "G", the rest of Faith's dialogue hasn't hit home at all. "I've got my powers back. I'm strong again." Yeah. That's about as generic a Character Voice as you can get. Krueger's awful. Meltzer's okay (I think he 'get's Xander and Andrew best for obvious reasons). Vaughan and Goddard are better and almost uncanny as they're new arrivals so-to-speak (Goddard only coming in for Season 7). Espenson's hit or miss but mostly hit (and very good hits like #28 and all the character nuance she conveys in one-word responses). And Joss remains the best at Character Voices.
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