phaeton08
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Post by phaeton08 on Apr 10, 2010 14:08:20 GMT -5
Satsu's reaction made me sympathize with her. I don't think it's much to do with Buffy choosing someone else as the person himself. Buffy is having sex with the guy who'd been torturing them, killing Slayers and spreading hate, not to mention the guy who sent the kitty monsters who almost caused Satsu her life. I agree. I've seen some people criticizing Satsu for running out on the others at such a crucial time (which I don't think is actually what she's doing), but I have to say her reaction to these events is the only one that really makes sense to me, out of all the Scoobies. I think a lot of emotional character interaction is being glossed over here in the interests of moving the story ahead during such an explication-heavy part of it... but I just don't buy the ease with which the good guys are tolerating the presence of the bad guys. Amy and Warren fired a missile that killed at least 7 of Satsu's personal friends, and now she's expected to calmly work alongside them as if they're colleagues? Andrew had to watch several girls under his command slaughtered in the Rome catacombs by Amy and Warren's summoned demons. Willow is now exchanging explication with the man who shot the love of her life in the heart, and not long ago kidnapped and tortured her and tried to destroy her mind. These are very serious, very emotional issues, and I'm afraid it just doesn't ring true to me to have it expressed only through jokey arguments about Captain America's shield, or campy throwaway lines like "Oh, and I hate you all, by the way." IMO, Satsu (and Faith, kind of) is the only one right now who's behaving like a feeling human being and not a plot device. There was an awful lot of emotional setup this season, and apart from the Buffy/Angel issue it's kind of being forgotten about. I hope that when the heat of crisis subsides, we'll get to see more of how these characters deal with their own personal pain... and the people that caused it. The bit about the 1680's Watchers Council is pretty intriguing. They must have had a pretty impressive Slayer if they were convinced that she'd triggered Twilight. I'd kind of like to see her story. BTW, can we assume that we now have our answer for why the world's people were so strangely willing to accept vampires among them? "The Universe" conditioned everyone into accepting this in order to help bring about their own destruction? I definatley see your argument, Andy I just think it fundamelty comes down to the wrting. Brad said he was much more of "Big Picture" focus on the Plot kind of writer. I also feel like 44 pages really don't do such a compex situation justice. There's so many different possible character expostions that we could focus on. And I really see this one part being like half of an episode with a really long over the top sex scene with Angel and Giles talking about the Slayer/Vampire Prophecy. What really irked the hell out me this last issue was not the sex scene(Which I agree, wasn't really sexy but definatley epic to say the least lol) but the refrence to the Universe as the driving force behind all of this. I mean in the Buffverse, It's allways been the PTB as the Ominescent Clash of the Titans Higher beings pushing our heroes through all sorts of hell and to some unwarranted Destiny. But that reminds me were the PTB ever actually said in BTVS Series or was that just an ATS thing? |
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The Girl In Question
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Post by The Girl In Question on Apr 10, 2010 14:10:13 GMT -5
I agree with Andrew especially about the Scoobies working alongside their enemies bit. I'm really hoping that once the big picture stuff is all dealt with, the Scoobies confront Amy and Warren in one way or the other. Sort of a la Angel and Boone in "Blood Money."
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Apr 10, 2010 14:27:16 GMT -5
I've not been that active here lately because the negativity has been rather contagious. However, I just wanted to stop by and say how much I enjoyed this issue. Once again, it was a total mindf*** but highly entertaining. When the series is over, I'll go back and analyse the whole story and whether it was well-written, but for now I'm just enjoying what's in front of me. I loved all the sex in this issue. It was hilarious. My friend and I flicked through it in the comic book shop and were killing ourselves laughing. Juvenile? Probably, but what the hell. Buffy was just such a dirty bitch, her face when she says "Do it again". Brilliant. I get that there's some potentially-rapey subtext, but it's portrayed with such fantasy and humour that I don't think that's the intention. Reminds me of this scene from "Where the Wild Things Are": WILLOW: Really, it wasn't your fault. You were under the influence of powerful magicks. BUFFY: We were like zombies. I had no control over myself at all. WILLOW: Must have been horrible. BUFFY: Yeah. Horrible. RILEY: Uh-huh. BUFFY: Mm-hmm. RILEY: It was bad. Lol, let's face it, even if Buffy and Angel are being influenced by "the Universe", they seem to be enjoying themselves! And I'm sorry, but if seeing Buffy and Angel f*** their way through a mountain into outer space doesn't make you laugh, then you're taking life far too seriously.  Like I said, I'm reserving judgement on this story until it's over. It's fun, but the characterisation is a little crazy. It could all come together beautifully, or it could be a ridiculous mess. For now, we have Buffy and Angel f***ing in outer space, and cameos from Spike and Fray. So how bad can it be?  |
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Apr 10, 2010 14:33:35 GMT -5
She sure isn't. Hence my reference to Jeanty...  That's not how Jeanty draws Faith's eyes or facial structure, and she's never had hair like that. It's clearly Buffy, regardless of colouring. |
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Post by wenxina on Apr 10, 2010 14:57:42 GMT -5
Hey Paul... no double posting. Shame!
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Apr 10, 2010 15:02:55 GMT -5
Hey Paul... no double posting. Shame! Someone deleted their comment. Don't go moderating me, Xi!  |
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Post by wenxina on Apr 10, 2010 15:13:09 GMT -5
Hey Paul... no double posting. Shame! Someone deleted their comment. Don't go moderating me, Xi! So she did. My apologies. But you like being bitched into place... |
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angeluffy
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Post by angeluffy on Apr 10, 2010 15:54:30 GMT -5
Finally, I read the issue. The sex didn't bother me at all since I lived in a country where sex is not a really moral problem. I won't talk anything about the wrongness of Buffy sleeping with Twangel because AndrewCrossett and Emmie said it all. I am quite happy to have a forum where we can discuss the issue from the moral point of view because, even being a Bangel, I am pissed off with this fandom... I mean in some places it all "Lot of good things for BA" "They are together" and such... what is good into having sex with a murderous fiend? Faith's full reaction will be quite interesting in the next issues (if showed)... Was she right when she said that all men are beasts? It will hit her hard because she trusted Angel and Giles. Angel was the guy who talked about redemption and refused to kill her... only to go on and kill 206 people (to count the last)... let alone beat her? Giles was her official watcher, even if neither of them could see it... and now she was along with him in some ride around the world and she didn't know the big picture? Maybe everyone is right and Faith will be the one to sacrifice herself and banish magic for all mainly because this is the point were she will be tired of everything. We saw Buffy being tired of her burden so much in the TV show and comics, but Faith never complained about it. I also agree that Faith and Satsu were the only one having human feelings up to now. I'm also curious as why would Giles not allow Buffy to be killed by Genevieve if he had all these suspects? Again, why Giles decided to hide things from Buffy too? Why Angel didn't talk to Buffy before terrorizing her and her friends? When and why he suddenly decided to go after Buffy while he was in LA? What started it? I don't agree that only Buffy was "coming to" in the end of the issue. Angel seemed to be coming out too... his last words wondered where they were. The only thing it seems is that he picked what was happening very fast (as he always did). We saw back in S2 with the box with the Judge's arm, when he caught it even faster than Giles (No. It can't be. She wouldn't...). Besides, when he realized that the tale about Twilight was true he seemed happy. Without voices to say it, we can't quite know, but his smile and hands up tell everything we need to know. He seemed to know he was with Buffy but do not remember what they were doing clearly yet (like in where the wild thing are)... like when he got his soul both times and it took him sometime to realized everything. I'm also curious about their clothes... Oracle-ish to me! The question is if they will have any way to know what their actions cost to the earth and humanity. I hoped Angel could not be in full control of himself, but up to now nothing confirms he didn't have control over everything. While he was beating Faith, when she didn't come out of it... he called for her more than one time and the second or third seemed like he was concerned for her well-being... and let's face it... only Angel could do it. Could they fight the supposed urges they are having? Will they still have these urges now that dimensional gates were opened to purr demons in? So, Universe or whatever is bringing more demons in so the balance demon/slayer will be brought back? Maybe every slayer will now have a fair share of demons to kill. Will Buffy and Angel be de-hancockizated? So, now they will have to stay apart forever because of their new status? I don't doubt that if Buffy discover what is happening she would want to go back right away, but what about Angel? If my accession of the last panels are right and Angel is satisfied they are in the ultimate land of happiness, will he want to come back to earth and all the hard things here? Think of Buffy when she was ressurected... she wanted to go back to heaven. Could Angel and Buffy fulfill the prophecy of the Morah demon and end all this craziness? Morah said they were powerful together... and now we know how much powerful. My main concern, as expressed by many other, is how Angel will leave all of this. Angel was acting strange since You're Welcome... ok. he had his moments back in S3 with the whole Darla thing, but he came back. In ATS, from the love point of view, IWRY and YRW are the main episodes (at least for me, of course). In the first one, Angel reverts time so the woman he loved and many other people won't die because he can't help the fight during some apocalypse. Even in S4 he decides again to meddle with memories so his son can have a nice life. Everything went downhill from this point on or because this point... which lead us to YRW. Contrary to many people, I love all seasons of Angel and season 4-5 showed us how much wrong decisions can take someone out of his/her path. Curiously, YRW sets the balls to the other side. After it, Angel decides to go on a personal vendetta against W&H that ultimately sent LA to hell. Maybe he thought that once he was there alone... and this time he wanted company... as it was said previously by Mayor Wilkins "I'd get set for a world of pain! Misery loves company young man, and I'm more than willing to share". I just hope that Angel can have some sort of salvation/redemption of all this absurdiness because he is my favorite vampire of all universe... or will he die in the end of this all? The point being Angel was not himself since S5 beginning and he got worst after You're Welcome. I've always distrust that vision Cordelia passed to him and Angel's actions after it. I found the notion of a Buffy's pregnancy quite laughable up to issue 34... I still think it is, although many fanfictions out there dealed with this issue a lot better than Joss, quite spectacularly if I considered some I've read. However, now... this is really a solid something that can occur. When it is said "Twilight is here!" it seems that Buffy is in the throws of an orgasm, so maybe the whole new race baby is there already. Also if this is The Apocalypse and it seems so... why would Joss give us a S9 if there won't be anymore demons around to fight and we go straight for the Fray universe from here on?I like AndrewCrossett theory for the rest of the S8, but I'd say that Buffy will go to some sort of Hell in one of the two last issue (with or without Angel?  ?) and the Scoobies (with or without Angel? ) will spent S9 trying to save her. Will they deal with the demons remaining on Earth or there won't be any of them... instantaneously? |
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Apr 10, 2010 15:56:26 GMT -5
Lol, let's face it, even if Buffy and Angel are being influenced by "the Universe", they seem to be enjoying themselves! And I'm sorry, but if seeing Buffy and Angel f*** their way through a mountain into outer space doesn't make you laugh, then you're taking life far too seriously. I don't really think comedy is the effect they were going for here, though it's easy to see it that way due to the sheer over-the-topness of the scene. I mean, this hilarious sex of theirs is destroying the world. Judging by the reports Dawn and Andrew and Satsu and Willow were seeing about world events, the death toll must already be in the millions. If the writers intended for this to be funny, then it seems to me the story is turning more into a parody of BtVS than anything else. It's just very, very confusing to me. |
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Post by Emmie on Apr 10, 2010 16:46:15 GMT -5
If the writers intended for this to be funny, then it seems to me the story is turning more into a parody of BtVS than anything else. THIS. I agree so hard. This issue wasn't supposed to be funny. Meltzer said he wanted the drawn out sex scene to be "sexy and beautiful". While the first few artful cutaways were close to accomplishing that, it completely got out of control and became hilarious while horrifying. |
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angeluffy
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Post by angeluffy on Apr 10, 2010 16:55:19 GMT -5
I think it is more than sex destroying the world. It's love. If we stop to think, from the beginning it was all about how love can destroy the world. Buffy loved Angel --> Angelus released Willow loved Oz --> Oz left so Tara could come into the show so that Willow could go VeinyWill Anya loved Xander --> got vengeance again, killed a lot of boys ultimately leading to her own demise when she came back to the Scoobies. Warren loved Katrina --> Buffy almost gave herself to the cops Spike loved Buffy --> rape Angel loved Buffy --> the end of the world Doyle loved Cordelia --> head kill headaches, then demon, world's end (did I say ew! screwing your adopted son?) Cordelia loved Angel --> Stupid W&H vision, world's end (well, just LA, but...) Gunn and Wesley loved Fred --> Gunn and Wesley friendship was destroyed, Angel loved Connor --> Took W&H, Fred was killed, Illyria came to play and... guess what... world's end If you think of every love history in the show (romantic, friendship, sisterhood), there was a world's end scenario attached to it. I mean, this hilarious sex of theirs is destroying the world. Judging by the reports Dawn and Andrew and Satsu and Willow were seeing about world events, the death toll must already be in the millions. I already stated it before. I think Twilight is not here only to strip Buffy's of her moral certainty, and I am sure we will see this debate in the next issues, but ours too. It is beyond me how people can see anything good in this whole mess between BA just because "they are comics". It is hard to see the real Buffy and Angel approval of any of this.. to say the least. |
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angeluffy
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Post by angeluffy on Apr 10, 2010 18:16:38 GMT -5
I think it is more than sex destroying the world. It's love. If we stop to think, from the beginning it was all about how love can destroy the world. Buffy loved Angel --> Angelus released Willow loved Oz --> Oz left so Tara could come into the show so that Willow could go VeinyWill Anya loved Xander --> got vengeance again, killed a lot of boys ultimately leading to her own demise when she came back to the Scoobies. Warren loved Katrina --> Buffy almost gave herself to the cops Spike loved Buffy --> rape Angel loved Buffy --> the end of the world Doyle loved Cordelia --> head kill headaches, then demon, world's end (did I say ew! screwing your adopted son?) Cordelia loved Angel --> Stupid W&H vision, world's end (well, just LA, but...) Gunn and Wesley loved Fred --> Gunn and Wesley friendship was destroyed, Angel loved Connor --> Took W&H, Fred was killed, Illyria came to play and... guess what... world's end If you think of every love history in the show (romantic, friendship, sisterhood), there was a world's end scenario attached to it. I mean, this hilarious sex of theirs is destroying the world. Judging by the reports Dawn and Andrew and Satsu and Willow were seeing about world events, the death toll must already be in the millions. I already stated it before. I think Twilight is not here only to strip Buffy's of her moral certainty, and I am sure we will see this debate in the next issues, but ours too. It is beyond me how people can see anything good in this whole mess between BA just because "they are comics". It is hard to see the real Buffy and Angel approval of any of this.. to say the least. *********************** WHY IS ANGEL WEARING PINK PANTS? ? |
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Post by wenxina on Apr 10, 2010 18:24:26 GMT -5
If the writers intended for this to be funny, then it seems to me the story is turning more into a parody of BtVS than anything else. THIS. I agree so hard. This issue wasn't supposed to be funny. Meltzer said he wanted the drawn out sex scene to be "sexy and beautiful". While the first few artful cutaways were close to accomplishing that, it completely got out of control and became hilarious while horrifying. The sex scene was supposed to be beautiful. But it's supposed to be juxtaposed with the horrifying turn of events, as it gets wilder and wilder. They're basically driven into an actual frenzy, and as that happens, the world spins further and further into chaos. I don't think that juxtaposition was accidental. So... as Giles said: "We need to be scared". Which sounds rather reminiscent of this: |
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Apr 10, 2010 20:36:50 GMT -5
One thing not many people have commented on is the fact that we're watching the Shanshu Prophecy play out right before our eyes here.
The Apocalypse is here, and Angel is the champion of the evil forces... at least, of the forces whose aim is to destroy humanity.
But the kicker is, if he gets his promised reward and becomes human... he's sunk, because mere humans can't survive in the new world he's creating.
(And I have to wonder if Wolfram & Hart is playing a part in all this. This is their life's work come to fruition, after all, and Angel did indeed turn out to be their golden boy.)
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Post by cherycxko313 on Apr 10, 2010 22:25:23 GMT -5
hi um new to the boards. thought i'd finally express my opinion hopefully without being screamed at. so here goes the shanshu prophecy as predicted back in ats s1/2000 said that there would be several apocos. This is the final battle it's Angel playing a trick on the PTB. He knows what he's doing as crazy as it sounds. As for Angel becoming human omg it's good in the way that he can finally be normal with buffy but bad in a way cause he knows how make another world now that's bad especially for the humans. but wolfram and hart arent playing a role in this, they hate him because he betrayed them and L.A. went to hell.  |
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angeluffy
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Post by angeluffy on Apr 10, 2010 23:36:45 GMT -5
One thing not many people have commented on is the fact that we're watching the Shanshu Prophecy play out right before our eyes here. The Apocalypse is here, and Angel is the champion of the evil forces... at least, of the forces whose aim is to destroy humanity. But the kicker is, if he gets his promised reward and becomes human... he's sunk, because mere humans can't survive in the new world he's creating. (And I have to wonder if Wolfram & Hart is playing a part in all this. This is their life's work come to fruition, after all, and Angel did indeed turn out to be their golden boy.) The worst is that from the happiness in the last panel, he didn't seem inclined to sign away his shanshu again over humanity survival (selfish much). |
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jr24tw
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Post by jr24tw on Apr 11, 2010 2:41:08 GMT -5
I've read the last couple of pages in this thread and didn't see anyone comment on this so...
I might be reading too much into it but does anyone have a theory why they put so much emphasis on Buffy's body fluids? I'm only talking about spit/sweat. They did it twice in this issue. They are having sex so it would be easy to draw sweat on someone's face and such. But they had 2 little extra boxes just showing the fluids.
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Post by wenxina on Apr 11, 2010 9:17:40 GMT -5
To show movement, or more specifically, how fast the two of them were moving. Each time, the spit/sweat was in frame with them, and in the next, it was still suspended in the air, but Buffy and Angel had moved again.
The first time came while Satsu reports them moving faster and faster, and the second time, was just before the earth-shattering orgasm that rocketed them both into the sky.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Apr 11, 2010 9:37:29 GMT -5
Literally! I hope Buffy enjoyed her 30-second endorphin rush. Anyhoo. Here are some key questions to think about during the long wait for #35. 1. In what way was Angel "pushing" Buffy to obtain her super powers? If activating the Slayer army was what identified her as the Chosen Chosen, why did she need any more pushing? What was the event that caused Buffy to gain her powers, why did she get them when she did, and what did Angel have to do with it? 2. How does Twilight's agenda of ending all magic further his goal of hooking up with Buffy to create a new master race? Was that just the role he was playing so the world's governments would entrust him with power and resources? 3. Why was he trying to minimize Slayer casualties if they were all going to die along with everybody else anyway? Did he not realize his "new reality" would result in the destruction of the old one? 4. Was Willow simply dead wrong about Buffy's powers deriving from dead Slayers?5. Why did Willow's powers come back? Why did Faith's? Is something fighting back against Twilight? |
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zamolxis
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Post by zamolxis on Apr 11, 2010 12:25:35 GMT -5
1. In what way was Angel "pushing" Buffy to obtain her super powers? If activating the Slayer army was what identified her as the Chosen Chosen, why did she need any more pushing? What was the event that caused Buffy to gain her powers, why did she get them when she did, and what did Angel have to do with it? Buffy was constantly forced to take decisions: she kills Dark!Willow and, trying to avoid Willow turning dark, goes to Tibet and gave up her slayer powers. She get them now because she's only human and the Universe didn't need demonic influence in it's new creation. I think also Angel was reverted as human (no vampire, no curse) and after that powered up to Twilight's need. She just had F#@%-ed humanity, probably Twilight told the governments and major demon players (also uniting them under his command) that Buffy and her slayer army will bring the apocalypse but forgot to mention his role in that I think he did nothing, nor minimize nor maximize: 'they're humans, they have to die sometime' or something like that. Yes Apparently, ripping reality walls was the event that got Willow's power back and also responsible for sending Buffy in the Frayverse = which is the first temporal conflict (don't think that Whedon will bother to explain). Faith's powers are somehow related with Buffy/Angel interaction (too bad that Satsu leaved the scene, did the rest of the slayers have them back?) |
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