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Post by monkeywrench on Jan 26, 2010 13:43:21 GMT -5
Are there any episodes you feel are unfairly derided or praised by many Buffy fans?
I'll go first:
Underrated: Dead Things
The feeling I get from Buffy fans is that Dead Things is okay but nothing special (presumably okay because the few episodes before are generally regarded to be bad).
I think that Dead Things is the most important episode of S6 as Buffy's problems come to a head. The less-serious tone at the start of the episode is great as the episode gets very dark later. The morally grey areas that have been touched upon, including Buffy's relationship with Spike, are explored here and I think it's fascinating. Along with the Trio going from silly boys to murderers, including Warren becoming downright scary.
I didn't like the episode at first because as usual it was edited to bits when it was broadcast, which means some of the most important things brought up are missed, e.g., Warren bringing the bottle down on Katrina's head meaning her death wasn't accidental, Buffy and Spike's post-sex conversation at the start of the episode. My S6 rewatch definitely made me appreciate this episode.
Overrated: Conversations With Dead People, Lies My Parents Told Me
CWDP is generally regarded as one of the best Buffy episodes and I really don't know why. The mood of the episode is very nice, it has good music... I mean I don't hate the episode but I mostly find it kinda boring. Especially Buffy and Holden the vampire talking. (I also hate that actor, for some reason. In Buffy and Angel. He's annoying to me.) Like I said, I mostly find it boring rather than infuriating and it's not on my Top 20.
LMPTM seems to be a favourite among some, though I've heard criticisms of it too. It was one of the episodes in S7 that wasn't boring and didn't involve the potentials, so I'd probably watch it over some of the other S7 ones.
However, there's quite a lot wrong with this one. The worst thing about it is that it seems we are supposed to be cheering because of the return of badass Spike and agreeing with Buffy when she tells Robin that she'll let Spike kill him if he tries anything again. I just ended up feeling really bad for Robin and thinking Spike was a total asshole and Buffy is turning into a hypocritical bitca.
How is Spike without a soul and Spike with a soul different here? He's just as insensitive with a soul as he was without one. "I don't give a piss about your mum" - how lovely, since you murdered her and ruined a guy's childhood, shouldn't you at least say sorry or something? Jeez. And the bit which pisses me off most is how Spike takes back the coat he previously stole from Nikki's dead body and we're supposed to think "Yay!". Eurgh.
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Beaumonde
Ensouled Vampire
Stop pulling my face towards your face.[Mo0:37]
Posts: 1,810
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Post by Beaumonde on Jan 26, 2010 14:04:07 GMT -5
CWDP is generally regarded as one of the best Buffy episodes and I really don't know why. The mood of the episode is very nice, it has good music... I mean I don't hate the episode but I mostly find it kinda boring. Especially Buffy and Holden the vampire talking. (I also hate that actor, for some reason. In Buffy and Angel. He's annoying to me.) Like I said, I mostly find it boring rather than infuriating and it's not on my Top 20. Agreed. Although I do really enjoy the episode in it's entirety, Buffy/Holden is just really boring and I can't wait for their scenes to end. Dawns part is the only bit I find really entertaining, because there's so many moments I find hilarious. I guess I'm a sucker for the haunted house thing too. How is Spike without a soul and Spike with a soul different here? He's just as insensitive with a soul as he was without one. "I don't give a piss about your mum" - how lovely, since you murdered her and ruined a guy's childhood, shouldn't you at least say sorry or something? Jeez. And the bit which pisses me off most is how Spike takes back the coat he previously stole from Nikki's dead body and we're supposed to think "Yay!". Eurgh. That's one of the things that bugs me with Soul Spike. How come he doesn't give a toss about killing? He seemed to get over his guilt of killing his victims really easily. Whereas Angel is completely and truly sorry for what he's done. And I really don't get it because Spike was a much better man than Angel ever was when they were human (or atleast that's the impression). |
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Post by monkeywrench on Jan 26, 2010 14:37:17 GMT -5
Agreed. Although I do really enjoy the episode in it's entirety, Buffy/Holden is just really boring and I can't wait for their scenes to end. Dawns part is the only bit I find really entertaining, because there's so many moments I find hilarious. I guess I'm a sucker for the haunted house thing too. I totally agree. Everyone else I've seen talk about this ep say they hate the Dawn parts but I love them. That's one of the things that bugs me with Soul Spike. How come he doesn't give a toss about killing? He seemed to get over his guilt of killing his victims really easily. Whereas Angel is completely and truly sorry for what he's done. And I really don't get it because Spike was a much better man than Angel ever was when they were human (or atleast that's the impression). I guess they needed Spike to be back in action after a bit of brooding instead of moping for 100 years. Angel also mentions it in AtS but there's no real explanation given. Though to me it's a bit more cogent with reality that the previous idea that if you have a soul then you're more worthy of being spared than someone without a soul (this was explored a bit in S6 with Warren and Spike though). I mean, Ted Bundy had a soul. Hitler had a soul. Didn't seem to do them any good. |
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Talkie Toaster
Junior Vampire Slayer
I'm not a god, I was misquoted
I'm really Lurchibald.. shhhhhh[Mo0:16]
Posts: 921
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Post by Talkie Toaster on Jan 26, 2010 19:56:43 GMT -5
However, there's quite a lot wrong with this one. The worst thing about it is that it seems we are supposed to be cheering because of the return of badass Spike and agreeing with Buffy when she tells Robin that she'll let Spike kill him if he tries anything again. I just ended up feeling really bad for Robin and thinking Spike was a total asshole and Buffy is turning into a hypocritical bitca. "A House Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand" And if the time comes it is best to have the strongest. I think a lot of people group together Angel and Spike together on how they should act when having a soul (not saying you do) but what we have to remember is that different rules apply to Angel and Spike where with Angel he has been "cursed" and cannot have happiness etc. and Spike Doesn't have those restrictions and again with the way he acquired his soul i believe he could have retained some of his vampiric traits (lets face it, humans may have souls but there are people out there like Hannibal)... I don't know if that will make sense or confuse everybody  |
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Post by sosa lola on Jan 27, 2010 10:17:20 GMT -5
Overrated: Tabula Rasa
I had high expectations for this episode, but was too disappointed when watching it. Other than Randy/Rupert/Enya –which was brilliant and unexpected- everything else is just too fanficcy predictable and cringe-worthy.
For example, Dawn saying "I don't think I drink" because she's a teenager. Like she psychically knew she was underage.
And Tara thinking Willow's name is cute, get it? Because they're in love, so it's only logical that Tara will find Willow's name to be pretty.
And Buffy finding out Dawn's real name because she's wearing a necklace called "Dawn." Yeah, I get it, it's an attempt to make Buffy and Spike the only ones who don't know their real names. I find it lame.
And my most cringe-worthy moment was Buffy and Dawn figuring out they were sisters because they fought. Give me a break.
Another thing that annoys me about the episode is how they handled Spike's vampire nature. This is one of the reasons I've enjoyed Spin the Bottle in AtS more than Tabula Rasa. I think the way they dealt with Angel's situation as a vampire was much more interesting and real than they did with Spike's in Tabula Rasa. Good or not, Spike is a vampire. When trapped in a shop with humans, he must feel some vampire urge to bite and drink from them. It's an instinct. It has nothing to do with him being good or bad. Angel still felt like a vampire and was too conflicted about these weird feelings he's having, it was twice funnier and more realistic.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jan 27, 2010 15:30:32 GMT -5
Underrated: In spite of Willow's makeup in the scene with Angel in her bedroom (  ), I'll go with "Lie to Me". Kinda weird to call any episode written & directed by Joss 'underrated', but it seems like you rarely see this one mentioned with the other great S2 eps like "Surprise/Innocence", "Passion", "Becoming"... But it's a great look at Buffy's continuing struggle to maintain a normal life in the face of all her new responsibilities. Ford is an interesting character, a sympathetic guy doing a really horrible thing for an understandable (tho hardly forgivable) reason. And it's the first episode to establish that, evil or not, Spike keeps his word. Overrated: I'll echo those who've said CwDP. The Buffy/Webs scenes are actually my favorite part of the ep (all written by Joss, and it shows). The stuff with the nerds is funny as usual. But the Dawn scenes are very confusing in light of the rest of the season: was it the First, or wasn't it? (I think it was intended to be, but it doesn't mesh at all with what's shown of the First as the season goes along.) And the Willow scenes just don't work at all without Tara. Overall, it's hardly a bad episode, I just don't think it's nearly worthy of the high praise it often gets...
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Post by monkeywrench on Jan 27, 2010 16:28:49 GMT -5
I think a lot of people group together Angel and Spike together on how they should act when having a soul (not saying you do) but what we have to remember is that different rules apply to Angel and Spike where with Angel he has been "cursed" and cannot have happiness etc. and Spike Doesn't have those restrictions and again with the way he acquired his soul i believe he could have retained some of his vampiric traits (lets face it, humans may have souls but there are people out there like Hannibal)... I don't know if that will make sense or confuse everybody I get what you mean, but I don't see how Angel being cursed to have a soul and Spike going after his makes a difference. With Angel, it was always assumed on the show that the reason he moped for 100 years was simply because he had a soul and couldn't live with his guilt. I think it's weird that Spike jumped over that. I thought that Spike with a soul would've been vampire Spike with his human-traits intact (I assume his romantic, sentimental nature came from his human self) but without his sociopathic tendencies, meaning he'd feel bad about things like killing two slayers, and who knows how many other people. Which he was at the start of the season, but then went straight to being a jackass instead of being in a middle-ground. In short, I just felt they didn't really use Spike having a soul at all. His journey to getting one was interesting, but him having it really wasn't any different. Just IMO. |
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Post by monkeywrench on Jan 27, 2010 16:33:52 GMT -5
I preferred "Spin the Bottle" on AtS too. Though I never know how much people like Tabula Rasa. There doesn't seem to be a consensus on it really. Many people think it's overrated, many people think it's amazing. El Diablo Robotico, I was going to put Lie To Me on my list as well. I love that episode so much. It's definitely where the season takes a darker turn. |
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Post by lightandmagic on Jan 28, 2010 5:12:47 GMT -5
Overrated: Band Candy
Don't get me wrong, I like this episode, I just don't think it's anywhere near as good as people make it out to be. It's got funny moments, but on a whole I think there are much much funnier episodes. The whole idea seemed a bit gimmicky to me. All teenagers are stupid, drunk jackasses. Granted, teenagers definitely can be, but I mean, none of Buffy or her friends act like that. They're also teenagers. I don't know, didn't mesh well.
Underrated: Bad Girls
I personally think this features one of the best moments in the entire series, when Faith tells Buffy she doesn't care that she killed a man. The rest of the episode isn't amazing, entertaining, but not particularly amazing. The ending however, is just, wow. I just think the episode finally dived into the whole abuse of power that season 3 was cradling for the majority of the season, and dealt with it really well. Buffy abused her power, and almost immediately there are consequences. Faith begins to turn to the dark side. I just love it.
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gumgnome
Junior Vampire Slayer
Who has got the button?
Get out of my BRAIN![Mo0:1]
Posts: 970
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Post by gumgnome on Jan 29, 2010 11:55:36 GMT -5
sosa lola - I agree with you completely. "Tabula Rasa" is a really over-rated episode. It's just not that funny and the selective memory loss really gets on my nerves.
El Diablo Robotico - if it is indeed underrated, I would agree that "Lie To Me" is one of the best of S2. In fact, when introducing new people to the show, I use this episode as the yard-stick for when the show really matures (with "Prophecy Girl" as a sign that this change is coming!).
lightandmagic - Agree! "Bad Girls" and "Consequences" are both fab episodes! Pivotal for the season and seem better every time I watch them. I think I like this pair more than the "Graduation Day" eps overall.
For my own choice, I'd probably agree with sosa lola that "Tabula Rasa" is the most over-rated. For under-rated, I've gotta go with "Ted". I know there are some people who like this ep, but I meet so many who can't stand it. "Ted" is TV gold for me. We see Buffy vulnerable domestically - for the very first time she's confronted with an enemy that she can't fight and it's close to home. John Ritter is just amazing as Ted, one of the best one-ep villains in the whole series. There's great banter from the gang - all in all, what's not to love!?
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Post by monkeywrench on Jan 29, 2010 13:03:00 GMT -5
Bad Girls and Consequences are definitely underrated. When I first watched those episodes I found them gripping, I was never completely sure which way Faith would go. For under-rated, I've gotta go with "Ted". I know there are some people who like this ep, but I meet so many who can't stand it. "Ted" is TV gold for me. We see Buffy vulnerable domestically - for the very first time she's confronted with an enemy that she can't fight and it's close to home. John Ritter is just amazing as Ted, one of the best one-ep villains in the whole series. There's great banter from the gang - all in all, what's not to love!? I can't believe people hate that episode! It was funny and realistic (in the pre-robot parts). Ted was scary even when he was the evil step-dad, which was brilliant. I don't think people like that Ted turned out to be a robot and Buffy got 'off the hook' for killing him. Firstly, we were shown much evidence from her words that she thought she did wrong and should take responsibility for killing someone. But what would have happened if he wasn't a robot? Buffy would've gone to jail for a while and... what would happen to the show? I mean c'mon. |
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Post by buffyfan21 on Jan 29, 2010 14:07:41 GMT -5
Bad Girls and Consequences are definitely underrated. When I first watched those episodes I found them gripping, I was never completely sure which way Faith would go. For under-rated, I've gotta go with "Ted". I know there are some people who like this ep, but I meet so many who can't stand it. "Ted" is TV gold for me. We see Buffy vulnerable domestically - for the very first time she's confronted with an enemy that she can't fight and it's close to home. John Ritter is just amazing as Ted, one of the best one-ep villains in the whole series. There's great banter from the gang - all in all, what's not to love!? I can't believe people hate that episode! It was funny and realistic (in the pre-robot parts). Ted was scary even when he was the evil step-dad, which was brilliant. I don't think people like that Ted turned out to be a robot and Buffy got 'off the hook' for killing him. Firstly, we were shown much evidence from her words that she thought she did wrong and should take responsibility for killing someone. But what would have happened if he wasn't a robot? Buffy would've gone to jail for a while and... what would happen to the show? I mean c'mon. Same here. I really like Ted. It is actually one of my favorite eps of S2. That and Bad Eggs, for some reason. I dunno why but I have just always really liked that episode. It's nothing special and nothing big happens in it, I just like it.  El Diablo Robotico - Completely agree with you about Lie to Me. It is one of my fave episodes of S2. The final scene with Buffy and Giles is utter brilliance! Gotta disagree with you about CWDP, however. That is still one of my fave eps of S7. monkeywrench - Completely agree regarding Dead Things. While there are certain moments that make me uncomfortable, the scene between Tara and Buffy makes this ep worth watching! If I had to choose for underrated, I would definitely say This Year's Girl and Who Are You. I watched these eps the other day and had forgotten how awesome they are. Love the Buffy/Faith fight scene! |
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FiveByFiveFVS
Novice Witch
Psycho Slayer
That was great. I gotta shower.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 276
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Post by FiveByFiveFVS on Jan 29, 2010 14:25:22 GMT -5
I'm gonna get a lot of sh*t for this, but I think the most overrated episode is "Once More, With Feeling". I have nothing against this episode. I think it's great. It just annoys me that people always seem to say that this is the best episode of Buffy ever. It is amazing, but so many better things happened during the course of the series.
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Post by winterdreamer on Jan 29, 2010 15:01:12 GMT -5
Ok, I'm gonna go with 'Once more with feeling' for most overrated....I'm not a fan of the episode particularily, but its always mentioned as one of the best TV moments. For most underrated...'A new man', I never see it really mentioned anywhere, but I thought it was a riot. |
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Post by monkeywrench on Jan 29, 2010 15:23:25 GMT -5
I'm gonna get a lot of sh*t for this, but I think the most overrated episode is "Once More, With Feeling". I have nothing against this episode. I think it's great. It just annoys me that people always seem to say that this is the best episode of Buffy ever. It is amazing, but so many better things happened during the course of the series. My parents (also fans of Buffy but less so than me of course) hate OMWF! My mom even said, "It's the only episode I don't like, except for those boring ones with all those girls [S7, in other words]". I'm one of those that adore OMWF. |
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The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
Posts: 1,674
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Post by The Girl In Question on Jan 31, 2010 22:49:42 GMT -5
I just gotta say that Lie to Me and Dead things are two of my favorite eps and I agree that they are completely underrated.
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Post by buffyfan21 on Feb 1, 2010 12:21:29 GMT -5
I would also say Restless is quite a bit underrated. While it has certainly received it's share of praise from the media, there are those fans that actually dislike Restless simply because it deviates from the normal season finale formula of the previous seasons. There are those that would disagree with me and say that Restless is overrated, but it really is an absolute brilliant episode, imo. I wrote a paper on it for my English lit class in college. I got up the nerve to ask my professor if I could use it as my drama essay topic, and I was presently surprised to learn that he actually knew of Buffy and the impact it had had on academia. I was afraid he was going to look at me like I was crazy. Anyway, my professor was very impressed with my ability to think outside the box (other students were focusing their paper on Hamlet and Macbeth, etc., but I took a bold leap in another direction!), and of course I got an A on the paper. So maybe that's why Restless has such a special place in my heart. There is just so much symbolism to explore in this episode. I think Restless definitely deserves more attention than it gets. Sure it deviated from the norm, but that's part of its genius! |
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The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
Posts: 1,674
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Post by The Girl In Question on Feb 1, 2010 12:43:34 GMT -5
^^If my college allowed me to do a paper on Buffy, I'd actually be interested. But nooooo I had to go to a media arts college...pft!
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Post by buffyfan21 on Feb 1, 2010 13:02:00 GMT -5
^^ Haha. Yeah. Well, I was sure my prof was going to shoot me down and totally laugh in my face. So I was shocked when he didn't! I envy those colleges/universities that actually have whole courses devoted to the study of Buffy. How awesome wouldn't that be?! I hadn't done a paper like that before or since, but I have to say it was so much fun getting the chance to write about something I am so passionate about and love so much...for a grade! I can bet I had more fun with my essay than anyone else did (there were a few that chose movies I think, but I was the only one to choose an episode of television). Anyway, I guess we are getting a little off-topic here. Sorry. |
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gumgnome
Junior Vampire Slayer
Who has got the button?
Get out of my BRAIN![Mo0:1]
Posts: 970
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Post by gumgnome on Feb 1, 2010 13:27:46 GMT -5
To stay slightly off-topic, I really enjoy reading other people's writing about Buffy from a non-fiction point of view (I read Slayage, for example). If anyone has anything they've written (especially anything academic) about the show and are happy to post it, I'd love to read it!
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