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Post by CowboyGuy on Jan 5, 2008 20:21:57 GMT -5
She's still reeking of guilt over bringing Buffy back, and blaming herself for Tara's death. These feelings didn't arise until Warren showed himself.
She is paying for it now, even though much time has passed.
With that said, I still think Oz is a good guy. He left Willow to go find a cure. The problem was that he left on bad terms and didn't make Willow understand what was going on. He just left...just like she said to him upon his return. He made a poor decision and he lost the love of his life.
I'm sure he has moved on and I cannot wait till we see him again, of all characters I want to know what he has been up to!
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 5, 2008 20:27:20 GMT -5
You bring up an interesting point. I think that what Willow did to Tara was worse, I mean she messed with her FREAKING BRAIN!!! thats pretty darn bad. (blesses) Exactly. I'm not defending what Oz did, but Willow is no saint. Willow paid for her sins. Oz didn't. How exactly did she pay? Lost her partner? Sudden realisation of a dark path? Goes cold turkey? Bad consequences later? Both characters experience this. You seem to think that because Oz left, his life was one big party. He threw away his education and in extension his future (don't forget he was as smart as Willow was), his relationship with his friends, his band, and even literally his instruments to become a better man. Don't say he didn't suffer. He came back with nothing left but that supposed cure, all for Willow. He may have done things wrong in your opinion but there's no debate that he was thinking about Willow. He left again to let Willow live her life. Can you not see the sacrifice there? The whole time he was away, his life was rooted in going back and making things right. Can you imagine giving up everything for the person you love? 'Cause he did. Wow that was more of a rant than I thought lol
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Post by roguewarrior on Jan 5, 2008 20:40:55 GMT -5
I think everyone else is speechless.lol.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 5, 2008 20:45:20 GMT -5
Probably hehe. I love it. Debates like this completely change my opinions of characters and help highlight character traits and arcs that go unnoticed to me. I also read into the similarities of characters and events that I never thought about before. Like the parrallels between Oz's and Willow's betrayals brought up here. Me likey analysis.
I still think Willow's mind altering is just awful though. Tara would have to live with the knowledge of her manipulated ignorance. She may as well have "events remembered may vary" written everywhere.
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Post by buffysmglover on Jan 6, 2008 0:36:18 GMT -5
I think what Willow did to Tara was worse.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Jan 6, 2008 1:47:51 GMT -5
henz, what I am saying is that I think Willow is just truly starting to deal with it now. It's shown in issue 10, she has major guilt and blames herself for much of what happened (Tara's death/Buffy's suffering).
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emarie
Innocent Bystander
Posts: 34
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Post by emarie on Jan 6, 2008 2:15:11 GMT -5
Love Cordy but if she did appear I'd like for it to be in Angel. Same with Dru. Maybe Oz (more guys) or Riley (if nothing else than to see if he ties into the army.)
Tara: I'm going to say no thanks unless her character can grow more outside her relationship to Willow.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 6, 2008 11:09:38 GMT -5
henz, what I am saying is that I think Willow is just truly starting to deal with it now. It's shown in issue 10, she has major guilt and blames herself for much of what happened (Tara's death/Buffy's suffering). Cool beans.... lol I don't know what to say cause there's no argument here. I look forward to reading more season 8 to learn about this. The question though was which is worse, cheating on the person or altering their mind, and I think it's cheating on the person. Don't get me wrong, what Willow did to Tara was horrible. But you have to look at the reasons behind both of those actions. Willow and Tara had never fought before. She loved Tara so much that she would do anything to keep them together (even if it meant betraying Tara). What Oz did was the opposite. Oz didn't do anything for Willow or for their relationship. His wolf issues and his lust for another woman strayed him away from his relationship with Willow. What Willow did was extremely wrong, but she did it out of love. Oh and I'm sorry, but boo freakin' hoo for Oz. He suffered for what he did to Willow? No. His suffering had NOTHING to do with what he did to her. And he didn't leave to let Willow live her life. He left after giving her an ultimatum, that it either had to be him or Tara. Which was ridiculous and insensitive. But you know what? I'm happy he screwed everything up because if he wouldn't have then Willow wouldn't have met her soulmate and been truely happy for once. ^_^ I'm trying to understand the weight of that idea. Willow does something truely disgusting because she loves the person and wants to make their problems go away. Oz does something awful because he is powerfully and uncontrollably attracted to another woman. I don't see as much of a difference as you do, clearly. They both love their partners, and both showed complete disregard to their feelings when they took the actions in question. The catalysts involved are pretty irrelevant. I can't understand you're view because of your absolute conviction that Willow is a good guy and Oz is a bad guy; it's clearly biased and pretty unfair. Oz didn't get away with what he did. You make out that Willow had a much harder time. They were both very guilty about their actions because they were both good people. What's interesting is you hold a grudge against Oz when Willow doesn't. They were both forgiven. Forgiveness is a lovely thing. You should try it ... (and oh yeah agree to disagree etc..)
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 6, 2008 17:49:22 GMT -5
But you would have forgiven your Willow-like friend after what she did? This Willow devotion is scary...
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matthewblake
Respected Watcher
Is it bright where you are?[Mo0:0]
Posts: 588
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Post by matthewblake on Jan 6, 2008 19:52:30 GMT -5
Willow and Tara had never fought before. She loved Tara so much that she would do anything to keep them together ^_^ They did have an argument before that, let's not forget "Tough Love." Also, manipulating someone's memories in fear of breaking up is ridiculous. Couples can disagree and still be together. Willow knew Tara was right about her problems with magic and wanted an easy way out.
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Post by SlayerLV on Jan 6, 2008 23:37:25 GMT -5
Ok guys lets get back on topic. If you want to talk about the Willow/Oz/Tara deal start a thread in the show section.
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Post by Essentially Yours on Jan 7, 2008 0:43:50 GMT -5
Love Cordy but if she did appear I'd like for it to be in Angel. Same with Dru. Maybe Oz (more guys) or Riley (if nothing else than to see if he ties into the army.) Tara: I'm going to say no thanks unless her character can grow more outside her relationship to Willow. Not to futherly go off topic, but I think Tara did grow outside the Willow relationship. She became closer to Buffy. Buffy confided in Tara when she was sleeping with Spike before anyone else knew. Tara was also very close to Dawn. She took care of Dawn numerous times by saying things like, "It's best for us non-scoobies to stay outside." while everyone else were doing detective work. She also stayed with Dawn all night when Willow and Buffy didn't come home. She was the first person to notice that something was wrong with Buffy's aura when Faith took her body. She even found Willow and Xander when they were lost in the woods by creating a ball of light. Her character seems to be more than helpful and contributing to all of the scoobies at some point. That's just IMO.
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barryshaft
Novice Witch
Sometimes I shouldn't say words...[Mo0:0]
Posts: 224
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Post by barryshaft on Jan 24, 2008 18:51:40 GMT -5
Yeah great observations about Tara, she really had grown into a great character by the end. That said, I definately think bringing her back (especially in the comics) would be a tremendous disservice to her death. Her death was one of the show's defining moments that really altered the characters and the direction of the show. If they just...took that back it would be cheap.
I too would love to see Oz back, but a lot of Oz was in his performance...so I dunno. I always wanted to see him get his own story in the verse, his quest to become a better man really sounded pretty damned interesting.
But I've got to jump in on this argument that's been going on. Oz Vs Willow. For one thing, both characters made very tragic mistakes because they're both very flawed characters (which is what makes characters in this verse interesting) But I don't really see where all the hatred for Oz comes from? He didn't consciously cheat on Willow. It's true, he knew that the Wolf inside him felt this powerful connection to Veruca, and that he himself did but had he not locked her in that cage she would have killed people. It was that or let others die. He kissed her to get her in the cage. Willow on the other hand, consciously cheated on Oz several times with someone she actually had feelings for... Something significantly worse I'd say. But, still, Oz did do something pretty horrible and that's his suddenly leaving Willow. He broke her pretty hard and he left just at a time when things were getting hard, even if it was for reasons beyond his control, he didn't have to take off. It was partially cowardice I'd say, but it's pretty understandable coming from Oz's solitary character.
Willow's "mind-rape" of Tara was pretty extreme, and a very bad act... but not really comparable. And as for paying for their sins... Oz broke up with his girlfriend... Willow tried to destroy the world and her friends... I don't think she'll ever really pay for that, hence her constant struggle. Redemption in this verse is pretty much an unending road and Willow's definately going to be walking it the rest of the series.
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