Scenes You Have A Hard Time Watching

[buffyfan21]

Apr 25, 2010 0:06:36 GMT -5 kaan said:

When Xander lost his eye Buffy could not even stick around the hospital because she just couldn't open herself to that pain. She sealed herself from her family and friends because she couldn't deal with the fact that they were all probably gonna die.

So yes, it was a bad scene, that desperately needed another rewrite, but it wasn't all just 'poor Buffy'.

I see where you're coming from about Xander. Arguably, he was the one with the most logical reason to be upset. And it's perfectly understandable given what he had just suffered, that he would have his reservations about going up against Caleb again. So yeah, Xander being upset, I totally get that, but I have to say that I fail to understand everyone else's horrible attitudes towards Buffy. It could be argued the xander was justified in his anger. He had just been through a horrible ordeal. But the others? Gotta say I just don't see it.

And yes, it has always annoyed me that Buffy couldn't make a little time to sit with Xander at the hospital. I find it a bit cold and it really does rub me the wrong way. That being said, though; yes Buffy made mistakes and bad decisions; she's not perfect, but that doesn't mean banishing her from her home was a justifiable action.

[kaan]

Apr 25, 2010 0:29:43 GMT -5 buffyfan21 said:

Apr 25, 2010 0:06:36 GMT -5 kaan said:

When Xander lost his eye Buffy could not even stick around the hospital because she just couldn't open herself to that pain. She sealed herself from her family and friends because she couldn't deal with the fact that they were all probably gonna die.

So yes, it was a bad scene, that desperately needed another rewrite, but it wasn't all just 'poor Buffy'.

I see where you're coming from about Xander. Arguably, he was the one with the most logical reason to be upset. And it's perfectly understandable given what he had just suffered, that he would have his reservations about going up against Caleb again. So yeah, Xander being upset, I totally get that, but I have to say that I fail to understand everyone else's horrible attitudes towards Buffy. It could be argued the xander was justified in his anger. He had just been through a horrible ordeal. But the others? Gotta say I just don't see it.

And yes, it has always annoyed me that Buffy couldn't make a little time to sit with Xander at the hospital. I find it a bit cold and it really does rub me the wrong way. That being said, though; yes Buffy made mistakes and bad decisions; she's not perfect, but that doesn't mean banishing her from her home was a justifiable action.

They talked about this in one episode commentary. Xander was the 'heart' of the piece. The one keeping all of them together. There were scenes throughout the season of him literally 'mending up the house', they were deliberately put in there so that when Xander 'fell' the whole house 'fell'. Or something like that anyway, haven't listened to it in a long time.

And I think where a lot of people forget is that they don't want to kick Buffy out of her house. They just want her to chill for a bit and take a breather but she wont listen to them.

[Okay while writing this post I just went and looked at a shooting script for End Of Days, to refresh my memory, and WOW is it different to what we saw on the show. It is a much longer scene and not as abrupt and has a completely different feel to what we got. The group and specifically Dawn still kicks Buffy out of course, but it's just so much better than what we saw. If they had filmed it that way, I think many of the arguments that have taken place about this episode for seven years would be different.]

[AngelFaith]

Apr 25, 2010 1:02:04 GMT -5 kaan said:

Okay while writing this post I just went and looked at a shooting script for End Of Days, to refresh my memory, and WOW is it different to what we saw on the show.

Can you post a link, please? I'd really like to take a look.

[kaan]

Apr 25, 2010 1:21:52 GMT -5 AngelFaith said:

Apr 25, 2010 1:02:04 GMT -5 kaan said:

Okay while writing this post I just went and looked at a shooting script for End Of Days, to refresh my memory, and WOW is it different to what we saw on the show.

Can you post a link, please? I'd really like to take a look.

I don't know the rules about posting links to other Buffy sites here but I'm sure a mod will fix it if they want to.

www.buffyworld.com/buffy/scripts/141_scri.html

It's the same scene and outcome we saw, but it just feels different to me somehow. Curious to know what others think.

[AngelFaith]

Apr 25, 2010 2:13:12 GMT -5 kaan said:

It's the same scene and outcome we saw, but it just feels different to me somehow. Curious to know what others think.

Wow, you're right, it does seem different. The script is a little different (longer) but the feel is also different.

I think it's because when you read something, as opposed to watching it, you can interpret it for yourself and adjust the way the lines are delivered in your head.

Like I said, this scene doesn't bother me the way it does others because I actually agree with the Scoobies, but I think it needed better direction and a different interpretation by the actors.

It's also interesting that in the script Dawn doesn't just outright throw Buffy out of the house, she gives her a choice. Either stay and let Faith lead or go - and Buffy chooses to go. There's also no mention of the scene where Faith follows her out and Buffy tells her not to be afraid to lead the Potentials. They should have left it the way it was originally written, it probably would have changed a lot of people's views.

[El Diablo Robotico]

I think the only thing that's majorly different in the original, as-written version is Dawn's bit at the very end. Yeah, there's different dialogue leading up to that, and more of it, but that's mostly just window-dressing. And if anything, I think I like the as-written version even less than the as-aired one.

The "heart of the piece" is the same in both: Buffy comes up with a crazy-reckless plan, and everyone else finally decides "Enough!" And when some of them realize that they have a newcomer who has most of the same qualifications as Buffy, sentiment quickly grows for making a change at the top ("Yes we can!").

In the as-aired version, Buffy immediately becomes hostile and confrontational when she feels her grip on the reins starting to slip. Dawn finally does what she does because she realizes that the group has decided to follow Faith, and she knows that they can't have Buffy there as a disruptive influence. If Faith is going to be in charge, then everyone has to have confidence in her and believe in her, and they can't afford to have Buffy standing around in the corner saying, "Don't do it that way, she's going to get you all killed!" It's a great character-moment for Dawn, because even tho it's an incredibly-hard thing for her to do to the person she loves the most, she does it because she understands that it needs to be done, for the sake and safety of everyone else.

But in the as-written version, in a true WTF? moment, Dawn simply decides that Buffy's not qualified for the job anymore... but somehow Faith is. Not only does she suddenly and inexplicably lose all confidence in Buffy's abilities, but she turns against her in favor of the try-to-kill-your-sister-type that she didn't even want in the house in the previous episode! The only way this makes any sense to me is if it was the beginning of the payoff (that ultimately never came) for the "Buffy won't choose you," bit in CwDP. If they'd aired this version, would there have been mention in the next ep that Dawn turned against Buffy here because she was convinced that Buffy was going to turn against her?

In the end, I think all the changes they made for the final version were for the better. The original was more flattering toward Buffy, but made everyone else (Dawn and Giles especially) look even worse.

But honestly, I don't like either one very much. They both feel phony, like drama just for the sake of drama. They're filler. Let's call them what they are: filler. They had 3 episodes between "Dirty Girls" and "Chosen", and they needed some stuff to happen to fill 'em up. Like, "Hey, let's have everyone stage a coup against Buffy for her crappy leadership, and throw her out of the house... but of course, she'll be right back in charge again 2 eps later." To be fair, there's probably not too much else they could've done by that point that would've been better, but that's their own fault--they were paying the price for neglecting the main characters (minus Buffy and Spike) all season long. Those 3 eps would've been a great time to pay off and wrap up the season-long character arcs for Willow, Xander, Anya, and Dawn... except they forgot to include any season-long character arcs for them. They spent so much time on the First/potentials/Seal of Danzalmacallit flobotanum-fest that they only had time to give each of them one frickin' centric ep in the entire season. Hell of a waste.

[tkts]

Apr 18, 2010 12:10:53 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

- Dawn's cheerleader tryout. Scenes that are all about embarrassing a character as badly as possible always make me uncomfortable.

I forgot about that one. Definitely painful to watch ... I can't think of any other time a character was humiliated as thoroughly as Dawn was in that scene.

[buffyfan21]

Thank you for sharing that kaan. It's interesting to see the extended scene. I like that Ben and Jenny were mentioned. So by that I guess we can assume that Buffy eventually found out about Ben? I really wish those moments had stayed in the script. Also, as AngelFaith pointed out, it's interesting that Dawn, instead of outright kicking Buffy out gave her a choice to stay or to leave, and she chose to leave. If I were in Buffy's shoes, I don't think I would have done that. In addition, the scene of Buffy and Faith on the porch is not included in the original, which to me makes Buffy's leaving all the sadder. Plus the description given as she's walking away is just heartbreaking.

Buffy walks out of the house, down the steps and into the street.
The town is deserted, doors left open, belongings that didn't fit in cars strewn about. Everyone's left. And she's totally, utterly alone.
She takes one last look at her house, the place that is no longer hers, then she turns and walks off into the night.

Buffy indeed feels very much alone at this point. Abandoned by her friends and her entire support system. Rightfully feeling as if everyone is against her. I like to imagine that in these moments, as Buffy walks somberly down the abandoned streets of Sunnydale, tears staining her face, that she is thinking of her mother, and missing her more than ever.

Another scene was also omitted from the original script was Dawn's "shut your mouth!" to Rona. I am soooo glad they decided to include this in the aired version as it is my favorite moment of the entire episode!

While the script is very interesting to read, it still doesn't succeed in changing my initial thoughts on the scene. In some ways, I think the original scene is even worse than the aired version! What I find most interesting is the group talking about "paying the price for Buffy not knowing what she's doing" when the irony is that is exactly what happened under Faith's leadership. I'm not saying she meant to lead them into danger, but that's what happened all the same. They thought they would somehow be "safer" with her in charge, and the exact opposite occurred. And even after all that everyone had done to Buffy, she still comes to the rescue, saving the day and even defending Faith with, "it could have happened to anyone." Which is true. And in Faith's defense, this is not a mission she had wanted in the first place, it was one that was pushed upon her.

Amanda believes they got punished, which I am inclined to believe is true given the circumstances. One potential even asks, "so, are you like, back?" I know the potential didn't mean anything by it, but still something about this question just rubs me the wrong way. I mean, having to ask Buffy if she is back to the place that is rightfully hers, her own home. I dunno, the whole thing just irks me. It's like the potentials and everyone as a whole are so ungrateful for all that Buffy has done; providing them a place to stay and helping to keep them alive, etc.

The thing that kills me most, though, Buffy was right. Caleb was hiding something at the vineyard, and it did turn out to be the key to winning the battle. But did the scoobies ever once admit they screwed up? That they were the ones who had made a horrible lapse in judgment? No. It's total hypocrisy. Holding Buffy accountable for her misgivings but then being completely unwilling to fess up to their own mistakes. And I think that's why I have a major problem with this scene and these events.

[Inappropriate Starches]

I agree, I actually prefer the aired version because it's not so awful! I mean I hated it and I still get mad at everyone when they do it, but it's one thing to be scared and to think Buffy might be being rash NOW but to call into question everything she's ever done is just completely harsh.

I agree that what happened to Faith could have happened to anyone, and in the end it was probably better that Buffy went for the scythe herself with a better plan of just avoiding his attacks, but how it all went down was unnecessary. I'm just glad it didn't take them forever to bring her back to the house that is hers.

[kaan]

The major crime of the whole Empty Places fiasco is probably not that scene, (whichever way it was shot it would have been a bad one), but everything that comes after it. There is absolutely no satisfactory resolution or reconciliation scene between the Scoobies in the eps afterwards. They just once again, like they had done pretty much for two season's, set up Buffy's pain just to have a Spuffy moment. I think they were so fixated on the 'ship in season 7 that they just lost control of every other character thread.

I remember when the last episode aired and reading comments afterwards, and one of the biggest things people applauded was not Bangel cookie dough, or Spuffy burning hands, it was the school hallway scene with the four original Scoobies talking about shopping. People had been craving for a scene like that for so goddamn long.

[Darth Rosie]

Apr 25, 2010 23:30:23 GMT -5 kaan said:

They just once again, like they had done pretty much for two season's, set up Buffy's pain just to have a Spuffy moment. I think they were so fixated on the 'ship in season 7 that they just lost control of every other character thread.

Excellent point!

Generally, I have a hard time watching scenes where Xander's self-righteousness comes out. He always goes for the girls he is fond of (see Teacher's Pet, Inka Mummy Girl, Cordelia) but he is judgemental and interfering when it comes to Buffy and Willow.

[buffyfan21]

Apr 25, 2010 23:30:23 GMT -5 kaan said:

The major crime of the whole Empty Places fiasco is probably not that scene, (whichever way it was shot it would have been a bad one), but everything that comes after it. There is absolutely no satisfactory resolution or reconciliation scene between the Scoobies in the eps afterwards.

I completely agree with you here, and as I said before this is the reason why I have a major problem with the events of Empty Places. As you have already pointed out, the scoobies go on like everything is normal and the issues are never addressed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that how they got into the whole mess in Empty Places in the first place? As a result of bottling things up until they finally exploded? Guess they didn't learn their lesson. I am happy that they managed to get to a somewhat better place through the course of those last two episodes, but like you, I desperately wish there had been some sort of resolution for all the conflict instead of everyone just going "tra-la-la" like not a thing happened. I dunno, perhaps the writers felt that with all the other stuff going on in the last two episodes, they simply didn't have time to address it, which I think is a real shame.

[sosa lola]

Apr 25, 2010 23:30:23 GMT -5 kaan said:

I remember when the last episode aired and reading comments afterwards, and one of the biggest things people applauded was not Bangel cookie dough, or Spuffy burning hands, it was the school hallway scene with the four original Scoobies talking about shopping. People had been craving for a scene like that for so goddamn long.

I agree. A lot of people were pulled to the show because of Buffy's friendship with Xander, Willow and Giles. Sadly, in the last two seasons expecially, the focus is too much on the shipping. Spike/Buffy, Xander/Anya, Willow/Tara or Willow/Kennedy.

While I don't hate Kennedy, I would have liked it more if Xander or Dawn helped Willow move on in S7, there's no need for a new girlfriend. Dawn hadn't been okay with Willow back in Same Time Same Place, how about an arc where Dawn has issues with Willow and gradually they mend their friendship? How about an arc where Xander and Spike become friends? How about an arc where Dawn forgives Spike? How about an arc where Buffy expresses issues with Willow bringing her back and them dealing with it? Why should always be about the romance. The friendships are more pure and interesting to watch. A much needed change.

And to be honest, making ALL the characters gang up on Buffy except for her love interest (duh!) in the very end of the show?? Bad move, show. Bad move. It was one of the reasons why I hated S7 as the last season.

So happy we have season eight now.

[kaan]

Apr 30, 2010 7:02:55 GMT -5 sosa lola said:

And to be honest, making ALL the characters gang up on Buffy except for her love interest (duh!) in the very end of the show?? Bad move, show. Bad move. It was one of the reasons why I hated S7 as the last season.

So happy we have season eight now.

Yeah for me S7 wasn't a bad season overall, it was pretty solid in a lot of places and there were good moments, but it just didn't feel like what we should of gotten as the last season. It started off really well. I loved the whole 'last season-coming full circle' feel of the early episodes, and then in was kinda derailed by the shipping and the Potential's.

Introducing a million new character's half-heartedly and then ignoring the main characters everyone's been watching for 7 years? That's a show's "middle-seasons" type of plot line.

Seriously, Andrew had a better arc in S7 than Xander, Anya, Giles and Dawn combined.

If they swapped the placement of S7's storyline with S5, it would have been much better. I needed a last season that invested entirely on the people I had followed and loved for years, and not be about a bunch of random wannabe slayers and unresolved group dynamics. They went for the epic in the second half of S7 and kinda lost the quiet heart of it.

[buffyfan21]

Apr 30, 2010 7:02:55 GMT -5 sosa lola said:

Apr 25, 2010 23:30:23 GMT -5 kaan said:

I remember when the last episode aired and reading comments afterwards, and one of the biggest things people applauded was not Bangel cookie dough, or Spuffy burning hands, it was the school hallway scene with the four original Scoobies talking about shopping. People had been craving for a scene like that for so goddamn long.

I agree. A lot of people were pulled to the show because of Buffy's friendship with Xander, Willow and Giles. Sadly, in the last two seasons expecially, the focus is too much on the shipping. Spike/Buffy, Xander/Anya, Willow/Tara or Willow/Kennedy.

While I don't hate Kennedy, I would have liked it more if Xander or Dawn helped Willow move on in S7, there's no need for a new girlfriend. Dawn hadn't been okay with Willow back in Same Time Same Place, how about an arc where Dawn has issues with Willow and gradually they mend their friendship? How about an arc where Xander and Spike become friends? How about an arc where Dawn forgives Spike? How about an arc where Buffy expresses issues with Willow bringing her back and them dealing with it? Why should always be about the romance. The friendships are more pure and interesting to watch. A much needed change.

And to be honest, making ALL the characters gang up on Buffy except for her love interest (duh!) in the very end of the show?? Bad move, show. Bad move. It was one of the reasons why I hated S7 as the last season.

So happy we have season eight now.

Kudos! I agree with everything you've said here. Well, except for the part about hating S7. Despite all the bratty potentials I still regard it as one of my fave seasons. Not sure why really, and maybe it doesn't make sense, but I do like it overall. That being said. I do agree with the points you made. Because while I like S7, it would have been miles better I think, if they had done what you're saying and focused on the group rather than a bunch of unknown wannabes. And I especially agree with your point that it would have been nice to see the gang help Willow through her problems, rather than relying on a girl she barely knew and had little in common with. It would have been great to see everyone really come together and reconcile their differences with one another; to see that closure taking place and years of friendship being repaired, as opposed to just assuming it had happened. I wholeheartedly agree that the focus should have been less on relationships, and more on the dynamics within the group we had come to know and love over 7 years. It was the last season for goodness sakes! I think the fans were really crying out for that; to see more moments just between the scoobies, like it used to be.

I too am glad we have season 8 now. And luckily, this season we have gotten at least a few of those character moments. I hope for many more in the future.

[Jezebel Jinx]

I just finished watching Tough Love and I have a hard time watching the scene where Glory squeezes Tara's hand till it's broken and bloody. Really any scenes that deal with a bone breaking make me cringe.

[bthomas]

Any of Joyce's bad parenting scenes from Season 1 where she talks about the books telling her to do this and that. Just makes her seem pathetic.

The scene were Riley is waiting for Buffy to come tell him to stay and she comes just as the helicopter is taking off. So sad.

Pretty much all of Teacher's Pet.

[Tea - Total]

I didnt like the scene when Buffy and Giles turned their back on Jenny,it wasnt her fault that Angelus AKA Buffys boyfriend killed the beloved daughter of Jenny tribe?,Vengeance demands that his pain be eternal. Which i understand , i would do the samething, i think Buffy was abit selfish because Jenny was just doing her job which Angelus caused.

[Zombierella]

1. Spuffy rape scene
2. Angel kills Ms. Calendar
3. Giles discovers Ms. Calendar's body in his home
4. Spike dies
5. Tara dies
6. Joyce dies
7. Spike after Glory beats him
8. Buffy tells Giles "Giles, I'm 16 years old, I don't want to die" in Prophecy Girl.

[Tea - Total]

The scene when spike gets truly damaged by Glory was a horrible scene, poor spike he got his ass kick by one kick.