Spike: After the Fall - Issue 3

[cheryl]

I am shocked as I had no idea that Spike's feelings for Fred ran that deep that she would be his "normal" fantasy girl.

I LOVED the Xander mention by Spike. Awesome inclusion.
Can't wait to get my hands on this tomorrow.

[Brian Lynch]

He's worried about Fred, so she's in his head. Plus, yeah, he's Spike. She's Fred. She's gonna be in his head.

[cheryl]

No complaints here. Just didn't see it coming at all. Which is kinda really cool, I like being surprised. Not a lot of writers aside from Mr. Whedon can shock or surprise you in a way that doesn't make you want to gouge your eyes out. The fact that you can, in the good way, isn't a bad thing at all.

[Brian Lynch]

Thanks spider! Much love!

[iloveromy]

Wow! My favorite Spike story so far!

Seriously, this is what I'm talking about. Spike and Illyria about to get executed (yeah right). Our new evil demon lady, Non, coercing with Gunn. Slayer Cattle! And a surprise guest at the end. This issue has it all. The big guns (no pun intended) were pulled out for this issue. Loves it!

I art was so great. Probably my fave Urru to date. The coloring was amazing. This is the treatment Brian's story deserves.

I am a total Briurru shipper now. Brian + Urru 4 ever! ha ha.

[Brian Lynch]

Thank you! That is great to hear (read)!

[jessesopher]

I'm going to pick this up after class in a few minutes. It looks like a good story.

It's interesting. ATF is the only time aside from BS2 that I can actually stand Spike. Good job, Brian.

[Skytteflickan88]

I've read this preview and I wonder if a "Phnn klakatu breeding appendage" sounds as dirty and violating to you guys as to me.

I definitly don't like the girls now. Still, I can't wait until all four issues are out so I can order them.

[cheryl]

Another great issue, probably my favorite of the Spike issues to date.
Lots going on.

IF you haven't got it yet, get it. You won't be sorry.

SPOILER: Click to show

Great issue.

I loved Illyria's reaction when she was forced to bow before another being. She gets bent not because she's been trapped in a cage and not because she's about to get her head cut off but because someone dared to question her godly status. LOVE that.

Still have the same feelings about the fantasy panels between Spike and Fred. One of the sweetest scenes in a LONG time. I think I could become a Fred/Spike fan very easily as I have started to become a HUGE Illyria/Wes fan. Talk about the angst that one could bring.

Spike sure has found himself in a situation. Illyria wants his devotion and Spider seems to really love him. His devotion? Fred. That's like a triangle of WOMEN with one man.

Connor saving the day was also pretty cool. Reminds me of his entrance into the last of Angel. "Hey dress for less". Really liking Connor which is cool.

Had an odd feeling hearing Gunn say that Spike isn't IN the future visions, but I bet it won't turn out to be anything horrible like death for his character. It has to mean something but not death to Spike,imo.

Really liked this issue a lot. Wishing it wasn't ending after the next issue.

[Enisy]

Is that you, Cheryl?

I posted my review here, if anyone wants to take a look. Spoilers ahead!

[cheryl]

Yes, it is me!

Seems as though Brian hits another home run with this issue! I can't wait til the next one and strangely enough, I wish Spike, after the fall, wasn't ending so soon.
Been awhile since I was this jazzed about Spike.

[Enisy]

Sept 18, 2008 7:47:14 GMT -5 cheryl said:

Yes, it is me!

*waves frantically*

And yes, Spike: After the Fall hit a new level of awesome with this issue. Here's hoping Brian will get involved in some other Spike project when he's done with After the Fall.

[Emmie]

Great issue! My first impression was that I liked Issue 2 better because of the amazing 'laugh out loud' moments, but then I realized how wonderfully dark this issue is - torture, twisted comfort, villains rendezvous and kill slayers in a twisted training ring, the build-up to a vicious execution attempt. Very dark and awesome.

Ok, something pretty crazy was pointed out to me about the slayers in this issue. Remember when Non kills them? Then remember when they're alive again so that Gunn can fight them? Remember these are the same slayers that later try to attack Betta George until Gunn kills them...again apparently? Some beaucoup de magic is going on. Also, how crazy that Gunn dropped all those weapons for the slayers to use on him. Has he magicked up the ultimate fighting/training ring complete with re-animated Slayers? It's exactly the kind of twisted, evil behavior I'd expect in the Angelverse. Reminds me of Lindsey's prison in Underneath where his heart keeps getting ripped out and he lives to experience the torture the next day.

I loved the Non/Gunn meeting and how Non had hoped she could parlay her capture of Spike and Illyria into a power play with Gunn. No dice, apparently. Non is an amazing badass villain - the "main stage" made up of skulls = chills. I think she's my favorite villain out of After the Fall or Season 8. I'm getting a little sad at the thought that she's going to die - is she, Brian? I know she should and I'll probably cheer on whoever does it, but dang what a great character. Sorry to see her imminent ass-kicking demise - she's one character I wouldn't mind being retconned in order for her to return. Well, actually I would mind the retcon, but I'd get over it and enjoy her return. See? Original characters can be awesome.

As for the Spike/Illyria kiss, I read that as her asserting her dominance over Spike - that his attention wasn't allowed to stray to another (in this case, Spider) and so she grabbed him and kissed him to remind him of his "priority". Didn't read anything romantic about it. Though if Illyria ever did have sex, I doubt there'd be anything romantic about that either. I think the only language Illyria speaks fluently is dominance and I'm not surprised that she would use sex to assert her power.

I liked that we got the explanation for how Betta George can read vampire minds - he's a Splenden beast. Sadecki demons can't get it done, but Splendens can read a vampire's mind. Nice little addition to the rules of the 'verse.

Great art by Urru - loved it. Especially the panel of Connor's entrance. All in all, an excellent issue. Can't wait for the finale to this piece. Sorry to see the end of Spike: After the Fall so near.

[hostile47]

This series has been so good, I love seeing Spike and Illyria working together.

In this issue, it was good to see Gunn and his gang interacting with Non, and I like how even while being tortured Spike caught on that Non was 'dressing-up'. I have been waiting for Connor to show up, except maybe Non is not the best enemy for him to fight. Can he be drained or is he demon enough that he is OK? And lastly, it was good to see Jeremy again.

In terms of the art - very good. My favorite pages included the one with Non after she 'killed' the slayers, and the page where Spike realized Illyria was alright, and then Illyria kicked some Non-ass (OK, that was on the next page).

[cheryl]

Emmie
I think it would be more than sex if Illyria was ever lucky enough to be with Wes that way. It's him she seems really into. Despite her being pretty gross in true form, I kinda like that idea.

[Enisy]

Yeah, Illyria seemed to have come to care a lot about Wesley by the end of Angel Season 5. Just consider that one of her first lines was "I'm watching human grief; it's like offal in my mouth"... and one of her last lines was "Wesley's dead. I'm feeling grief for him. I can't seem to control it..."

(Love the Wesley/Illyria relationship, if you can't tell. They're so touching and intriguing in their dysfunction.)

[Emmie]

spider and enisy,

I'm intrigued by the Wes/Illyria interaction but I'm not convinced that those expressions of emotion are Illyria's, but rather from Fred within. Was Fred grieving Wesley and Illyria was experiencing it from a front row seat, mistaking the emotions as it's own?

Back when we were told by an untrustworthy source that Fred's soul had been "consumed in the fires of resurrection", an argument could be made that the emotions were now Illyria's. Now that we know Fred is still inside, I think that weakens the explanation that Illyria has emotions. Rather she's experiencing Fred's emotions.

To me, whatever softer or tender emotions Illyria experiences are hijacked from Fred and her influence. The affection and grief Illyria expresses in Not Fade Away I see as originating from Fred. Remember that only one episode seperates Not Fade Away from Time Bomb where Illyria kills Wesley. A murder to which she shows no hesitation. I don't see how coming from that to Illyria being "in love" with Wes is a true, viable option.

What is love? What does it mean to be in love? I don't think Illyria is capable of it on her own and whatever softer emotions she experiences she is acquiring from Fred. Fred is Illyria's emotional crutch and without her influence I don't believe she would possess the capacity for the realm and depth of human emotion.

Have you ever wondered what would have happened if Illyria had used Gunn, Wes or even Knox as it's shell? I think then Illyria would have feelings of affection and even love for Fred. What if Illyria had used Spike as it's shell? Would Illyria in a Spike shell then love Buffy?

I don't think Illyria is worthy of Wesley, simply put. I'd rather he meet his end and somehow find peace in the afterlife with the hopes of being reunited with Fred than for an Illyria (removed from Fred, if that's possible) to be with Wesley. The idea that Wesley end up with Illyria, who's resurrection hollowed out his true love and obsession for nearly 3 entire seasons is utterly repugnant to me. Fascination I can handle, but actually presenting this under the guise of an appealing 'ship repels me.

SPOILER: Click to show

And judging by the upcoming cover for Issue 14 that has Illyria's true form crushing Angel in a death grip with one of "it's" tentacles (I'm going to go back to giving Illyria the God-king a genderless pronoun when in "it's" true form), I'm not holding any romantic illusions about Wesley/Illyria. I think Illyria in her true form would give Wesley a Get-out-of-me-killing-you card, but I don't think it will have sex or sweet love on it's mind.

*** Of course, this is just my personal take on the duality of Fred/Illyria in one body. Time will tell how this actually works as we haven't been shown where the line is really drawn between the two. But I will say that before shelling out Fred's body and possessing it, I doubt Illyria had ever experienced this thing called love. Even once in the human shell, she showed contempt for the weakness of the emotions humans felt and only vocally showed respect for power and crushing all those in the former God-king's path. For Illyria - it's about power. For Fred, it's about love, justice and doing what's right.

[Enisy]

Sept 19, 2008 0:04:37 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Back when we were told by an untrustworthy source that Fred's soul had been "consumed in the fires of resurrection", an argument could be made that the emotions were now Illyria's. Now that we know Fred is still inside, I think that weakens the explanation that Illyria has emotions. Rather she's experiencing Fred's emotions.

Ah, but is Fred still inside, or is Illyria just acting like Fred, as Wesley seems to believe? We don't really know for sure yet.

[cheryl]

Whatever is going on with Illyria/Fred, I like it. I like the idea of a human and demon sharing a body. It's kinda like Angel/Angelus with Illyria being a little less scourge like.

Illyria/Wes touches me on a level that Fred/Wes never quite managed. So, I HOPE she is capable of sweet loving feelings for him.

[Emmie]

Sept 19, 2008 4:58:26 GMT -5 Enisy said:

Ah, but is Fred still inside, or is Illyria just acting like Fred, as Wesley seems to believe? We don't really know for sure yet.

See, I'm a little confused by this. I thought Brian Lynch had confirmed that it really was Fred and not just Illyria acting like Fred, but fans whose opinions I really respect (yours included) are still doubting that it's Fred. Which makes me doubt myself. It's this whole vicious doubting circle.

spider, I think there is the potential for sweet loving emotion in Illyria, but I just find it incredibly unlikely that she already felt this by Not Fade Away. I see Fred's heart guiding the way for Illyria and it's hard to distinguish between what emotions are Fred's and what are Illyria's. I believe the longer Illyria lives in a human shell and is subject to the influence of Fred's memories and emotions than the greater likelihood that Illyria's own heart will grow. But as of the end of Ats season 5, I ain't buying that she loved Wesley all on her own.