Angel: Bedroom Follies - Issue 34

[angeliclestat]

Ok - that was fun:) I really enjoyed this one, I have read a lot people say that it seemed like an episode, and it did for me too. I really silly comedy episode I could almost hear that music that Kral used to use for 'comedy episodes'.

The escalation of the 'sexcapades' was hilarious. I could just imagine Boreanaz doing 'uncomfortable' Angel , and Marsters doing 'charming' Spike - I think there is going to be a lot of uncomfortableness in the Hyperion for the next while!

I liked Spike's questions about prophecy. Nothing he was asking was wrong. Just who is in charge of doing prophecies? And who determines how they come true? This could be a very interesting look into the nature of prophecy in the Angelverse. So many characters are ruled by them.

The Eddie Hope/Gunn scene was definately intense. I can understand how Gunn would try to distance himself from what went down in Hell....and it is back to the old argument of how much blame does the souled vamp (or ex-vamp) hold for their actions without a soul. I doubt Gunn is about to get a bullet in the head...but good cliffhanger!

[Paul]

Decent enough issue soured by Willingham's overly formal dialogue. Illyria and George were very out-of-character, everyone else was okay. The concept was pretty funny, as others have said it felt like a light-hearted episode of the show.

I liked the art, and don't really get others' criticisms. It's not amazing, but simple and cartoony and pleasant. It's kind of like Messina-lite. I enjoyed the big thick lines and basic colours more than previous issues' desperate attempts to be photorealistic. The character likenesses were good as well.

To be honest, if IDW hired someone to tweak some of the dialogue (as Joss often did on the TV shows), this series would be pretty solid.

[neowhobaz]

Jun 24, 2010 13:14:00 GMT -5 Paul said:

Decent enough issue soured by Willingham's overly formal dialogue. Illyria and George were very out-of-character, everyone else was okay. The concept was pretty funny, as others have said it felt like a light-hearted episode of the show.

I liked the art, and don't really get others' criticisms. It's not amazing, but simple and cartoony and pleasant. It's kind of like Messina-lite. I enjoyed the big thick lines and basic colours more than previous issues' desperate attempts to be photorealistic. The character likenesses were good as well.

To be honest, if IDW hired someone to tweak some of the dialogue (as Joss often did on the TV shows), this series would be pretty solid.

Agreed. I mean sometimes its just to hard to capture the voice of a character that's not your own creation. Obviously with the bigger Characters it's not as hard because they're iconic and its more obvious how they should be but the more obscure characters are like when you have to tame a horse. you either can or can't do it.

[AndrewCrossett]

Also... apparently Illyria gets "in heat" sexually, despite the fact that Fred's body (sans Illyria) obviously didn't, and Illyria (sans Fred) was completely sexless.

I think Bill Willingham was enjoying a little throwback to the medieval-fantasy porn comics he wrote back in the 90's. Which were actually pretty good.

[neowhobaz]

Even if Illyria was genderless, she's shown leans towards a more female personality on both her her time in the show and the comics. More so in Willinghams run because of his bad portrayal of her but still it was semi present before. Sort of an homage to the fact she had a female host body perhaps.

[AndrewCrossett]

I think she self-identifies as a female by now, due to her habitation of Fred's body and the influence of Fred's reflected memories. But that still wouldn't explain why she would have a physical reaction like estrus (going "in heat" and releasing pheromones) considering that neither component of her (Fred or Old One Illyria) had any such thing.

[wenxina]

Jun 24, 2010 14:57:16 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

I think she self-identifies as a female by now, due to her habitation of Fred's body and the influence of Fred's reflected memories. But that still wouldn't explain why she would have a physical reaction like estrus (going "in heat" and releasing pheromones) considering that neither component of her (Fred or Old One Illyria) had any such thing.

Has there been any canonical mention about Illyria's sexual reproductive system? As far as I know, this is the first mention of Illyria's sexual reproductive cycle, so it's not like it actually defies canon. The God-King was never definitively male. Glory was a "Hell-God", not a "Hell-Goddess", and by all appearances, she was definitely a bat-shit crazy female, and it had NOTHING to do with her host/prison's sex.

[VampSlayer]

My guess is that Illyria's original, demon form could breed in some way, but not how we imagine. Maybe it had its own unique way of having sexual intercourse, and giving birth? Maybe it didn't even have 'sex' at all. Now before people say, "That doesn't explain why she's going into heat, while in a human body!": My other assumption is that she/it adapted. Maybe it would have sexual intercourse, but give 'birth' to some sort of creature? (Since she called the nonexistent thing(s) broods.) Idk. I'm trying my best to make sense of it.

And I must say, I love how Illyria's hair is colored. The blue and brown shades clash nicely, IMHO.

As for OOC-ness... I'd say Illyria is totally not sounding like herself. She is using words that even I don't understand. And just her overall way with words is off. Betta George was still not like himself, but he's getting better as the series goes on. One moment he made a Star Trek reference, and then sounded like a dictionary-obsessed fish.

And this may sound weird, and I may totally be in the wrong... But I kinda wanted Illyria and Connor to get it on. :X -Gasp- I know, right? What's wrong with me?! Not only was I upset that all of this fuss was built up about it and nothing went down, but I actually wanted it to happen. I had been against it, yet when it came down to the moment, I was just... For it? I really don't think the Illyria and Connor 'relationship' is over. I think they'll have some interesting scenes together now.

And I'm glad Angel and Kate finally got it on... But Dez ruined that for me. They shoulda turned that she-cat-bitch away from the start.

So yeah... I'll also add that I agree 100% with Paul. ;D

[AndrewCrossett]

Jun 24, 2010 15:36:07 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Has there been any canonical mention about Illyria's sexual reproductive system? As far as I know, this is the first mention of Illyria's sexual reproductive cycle, so it's not like it actually defies canon. The God-King was never definitively male. Glory was a "Hell-God", not a "Hell-Goddess", and by all appearances, she was definitely a bat-shit crazy female, and it had NOTHING to do with her host/prison's sex.

I'm quite sure there was a passage in AtF, when Illyria reverted to her true form, where someone said she wasn't a "she" anymore. I'll have to look when I get back home.

[wenxina]

Jun 24, 2010 15:55:21 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

Jun 24, 2010 15:36:07 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Has there been any canonical mention about Illyria's sexual reproductive system? As far as I know, this is the first mention of Illyria's sexual reproductive cycle, so it's not like it actually defies canon. The God-King was never definitively male. Glory was a "Hell-God", not a "Hell-Goddess", and by all appearances, she was definitely a bat-shit crazy female, and it had NOTHING to do with her host/prison's sex.

I'm quite sure there was a passage in AtF, when Illyria reverted to her true form, where someone said she wasn't a "she" anymore. I'll have to look when I get back home.

All it notes is that Illyria is no longer female-looking, and now resembles a hydra (not the mythological critter) again. It doesn't say anything about her/its reproductive system. If tainted demons can have unique physiology (many spleens, no heart in the case of the demon who opened up the Beljoxa's Eye portal for Anya and Giles), I don't see the matter with Old Ones having equally wacky insides.

[AndrewCrossett]

Nevertheless, I find the whole notion of Illyria being "in heat" to be ridiculous. She's a demigod, not a basset hound.

But, since I'm barely paying attention to this series anymore and it's nowhere near canonical, it doesn't really matter.

[Emmie]

Jun 23, 2010 8:50:16 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

Regardless of whether Illyria CAN have sex, and regardless of whether she would WANT to, and regardless of whether she would want to do it WITH CONNOR...

Of all the possible Angelverse storylines, this is really among the ones I least want to see.

Exactly. It's an outrageous storyline that is based upon one unlikely scenario after another. Compare this with Illyria in Spike:AtF where she kisses Spike to show dominance. That was good. That was very Illyria.

This? Is weird. And if Illyria has pheromones that make everyone ready to have sex with her, why is she even asking permission? She'd just grab whoever she wanted and order them to copulate. Or she'd demand Connor copulate with her in exchange for saving his father. She wouldn't ask permission.

Illyria's been a character who on the surface is female, but internally is Other. Not defined. So it rankles that IDW are taking it as a given that Illyria is all-woman. Going into heat like a dog or a cat, asking permission for sex. They've gutted Illyria, removed her spine.

Where's her forceful personality? She can't even speak without questioning herself every other line.

It's bad characterization. I really, really dislike it.

Everyone's speculating on how Illyria's demon form could formerly breed. But she's choosing to breed with Connor. I sincerely doubt Illyria of former God-King Old One status could nor would breed with a humanoid. Nor with the offspring of the "ooze that eats itself."

So Illyria breeding with Connor is new. It's not coming from back when Illyria was a God-King. Then Illyria would need to reform human organs to procreate with Connor, reform the liquefied organs that were destroyed when Fred died.

And as a woman, I'm not taking it as a given that Illyria can reform and mutate a womb. She constantly refers to Fred as the shell.

ILLYRIA in Shells
Yet there are fragments. When her brain collapsed, electrical spasms channeled into my function system... memories.
(holds up her fingers, making a gap between her thumb and index finger where an electrical spark forms)
(as Fred) Please...Wesley, why can't I stay?

Fred is supposed to be destroyed. Her brain collapsed. Her organs liquefied. Her soul burned up in the fires of resurrection (which I object to, but Joss insists happened). Her soul is destroyed, but somehow her female bits are still going? Huh? Illyria then can modify the shell to however she chooses it to appear. She has Fred's memories not because Fred's brain is still there, but because when she was reborn, the final electric currents shot Fred's memories into Illyria's body.

Illyria is filling up the shell. Her insides are God-King modified to fill the shell. What's inside, when given the magic to be freed, is a modifed form of her Old One's body like in After the Fall. Fred's organs aren't being used--they've been replaced by Illyria. All that remains is the shell, the surface, the appearance of Fred--there is no soul, there is no inner.

So considering the gooey center of Illyria is God-King, that Fred's internal organs have been liquefied to hollow out space for Illyria, how can she procreate with Connor? This is what's problematic. It's fine if Illyria has Old One demon bits that procreate in an odd way. But how can her demon bits procreate with Connor's? The relies on the assumption is that Illyria has merged with Fred not only in surface, but in the inner physiology and that just reads wrong to me. Fred's brain has collapsed, replaced by Illyria's mind, her soul is burnt to a crisp--there's nothing left of Fred but the shell. And even the shell is held at whim to Illyria's magical modifications, but it's surface alteration.

It just reinforces my understanding that Willingham sees Illyria as all female when in reality she's female on the surface, but an Other demon inside. Illyria's female identity is a holdover from Fred, a surface relation. It's a gender identity that's now laid over top her Old One identity. Yet IDW takes it further so that she's now All Female, instead of Fred-gender-identity on top of Old One Demonic Identity, altering her Old One status.

In physical reality, she's Old One innards with a female surface shell. The outward appearance of female physical organs give her the female gender appearance, but those breast aren't going to be lactating when/if Illryia gives birth.

So why is Illyria's Old One demonic status being redefined by her artificial surface gender?

Sex is the biology. Gender the societal construct. Actually, more and more Illyria reads as a bit of a transgen character. A transgen character oversimplified to being all female,but also female humanoid in order to procreate with Connor and Illyria's sex organs are not humanoid, but Old One demonic.

[Paul]

Jun 24, 2010 17:59:16 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Jun 23, 2010 8:50:16 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

Regardless of whether Illyria CAN have sex, and regardless of whether she would WANT to, and regardless of whether she would want to do it WITH CONNOR...

Of all the possible Angelverse storylines, this is really among the ones I least want to see.

Exactly. It's an outrageous storyline that is based upon one unlikely scenario after another. Compare this with Illyria in Spike:AtF where she kisses Spike to show dominance. That was good. That was very Illyria.

This? Is weird. And if Illyria has pheromones that make everyone ready to have sex with her, why is she even asking permission? She'd just grab whoever she wanted and order them to copulate. Or she'd demand Connor copulate with her in exchange for saving his father. She wouldn't ask permission.

Illyria's been a character who on the surface is female, but internally is Other. Not defined. So it rankles that IDW are taking it as a given that Illyria is all-woman. Going into heat like a dog or a cat, asking permission for sex. They've gutted Illyria, removed her spine.

Where's her forceful personality? She can't even speak without questioning herself every other line.

It's bad characterization. I really, really dislike it.

Everyone's speculating on how Illyria's demon form could formerly breed. But she's choosing to breed with Connor. I sincerely doubt Illyria of former God-King Old One status could nor would breed with a humanoid. Nor with the offspring of the "ooze that eats itself."

So Illyria breeding with Connor is new. It's not coming from back when Illyria was a God-King. Then Illyria would need to reform human organs to procreate with Connor, reform the liquefied organs that were destroyed when Fred died.

And as a woman, I'm not taking it as a given that Illyria can reform and mutate a womb. She constantly refers to Fred as the shell.

ILLYRIA in Shells
Yet there are fragments. When her brain collapsed, electrical spasms channeled into my function system... memories.
(holds up her fingers, making a gap between her thumb and index finger where an electrical spark forms)
(as Fred) Please...Wesley, why can't I stay?

Fred is supposed to be destroyed. Her brain collapsed. Her organs liquefied. Her soul burned up in the fires of resurrection (which I object to, but Joss insists happened). Her soul is destroyed, but somehow her female bits are still going? Huh? Illyria then can modify the shell to however she chooses it to appear. She has Fred's memories not because Fred's brain is still there, but because when she was reborn, the final electric currents shot Fred's memories into Illyria's body.

Illyria is filling up the shell. Her insides are God-King modified to fill the shell. What's inside, when given the magic to be freed, is a modifed form of her Old One's body like in After the Fall. Fred's organs aren't being used--they've been replaced by Illyria. All that remains is the shell, the surface, the appearance of Fred--there is no soul, there is no inner.

So considering the gooey center of Illyria is God-King, that Fred's internal organs have been liquefied to hollow out space for Illyria, how can she procreate with Connor? This is what's problematic. It's fine if Illyria has Old One demon bits that procreate in an odd way. But how can her demon bits procreate with Connor's? The relies on the assumption is that Illyria has merged with Fred not only in surface, but in the inner physiology and that just reads wrong to me. Fred's brain has collapsed, replaced by Illyria's mind, her soul is burnt to a crisp--there's nothing left of Fred but the shell. And even the shell is held at whim to Illyria's magical modifications, but it's surface alteration.

It just reinforces my understanding that Willingham sees Illyria as all female when in reality she's female on the surface, but an Other demon inside. Illyria's female identity is a holdover from Fred, a surface relation. It's a gender identity that's now laid over top her Old One identity. Yet IDW takes it further so that she's now All Female, instead of Fred-gender-identity on top of Old One Demonic Identity, altering her Old One status.

In physical reality, she's Old One innards with a female surface shell. The outward appearance of female physical organs give her the female gender appearance, but those breast aren't going to be lactating when/if Illryia gives birth.

So why is Illyria's Old One demonic status being redefined by her artificial surface gender?

Sex is the biology. Gender the societal construct. Actually, more and more Illyria reads as a bit of a transgen character. A transgen character oversimplified to being all female,but also female humanoid in order to procreate with Connor and Illyria's sex organs are not humanoid, but Old One demonic.

The Hellmouth did it.

[Emmie]

So not a wizard then?

[wenxina]

I'm not arguing that Illyria's characterization is anywhere close to being stellar (haven't actually read more than the preview, to be perfectly honest). Just going to play devil's advocate for the sheer heck of it.

One could always argue that the "sparks", Fred's memories, and to a certain extent, personality (we know that Illyria can play a very convincing Fred) are feminizing Illyria. She's no longer the same as what she (female pronoun for conciseness) was when she was a raging octopus. She's adapting to this world... she was learning way back in S5 of AtS about what it meant to be human. That said, Fred come S5 was a lot more assertive than she was earlier, so maybe Illyria's just kinda trapped in the retro-rewind at the moment. But characterization hasn't been Willingham's strong suite with these characters yet, so *shrug*.

As for the reproductive organs... yes, Fred's liquified when Illyria took up shop. But conservation of energy laws would dictate that the matter not be destroyed. Fred's soul got toasty, but you could even fanwank a conservation of energy explanation that the energy produced in that process was what made the final transformation possible. Yes, Fred's a shell, but even shells contain stuffing of sort. Unless Illyria is really just Jello on the inside, like E argued (back in the "AtF" days), then it would make sense that whatever organs and physiology the original form had has taken up shop in Fred's shell.
Nature is pretty conservative when it comes to certain things. Reproduction is something that is generally not largely varying across multiple taxa, simply because of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" adage. Simply because having to devise a whole new system is costly, and it takes forever. And hey, if Fred's body is the shell, then all external genitalia were probably kept intact. Her boobs (not genitalia, but a secondary female characteristic) were, at least maintained.
So, while I'm not a fan of Illyria becoming a bitch in heat, it's not unforeseeable that despite Illyria's Otherness, she has a largely female reproductive cycle. It's an interesting juxtaposition of traits, when placed next to her largely masculine "I'm the conquerer/destroyer of blahdiblahblahblah". Amazonian, even.

[AndrewCrossett]

It seems like they're writing Illyria as "Anya with super-strength" in these comics.

I can accept that Fred's influence would cause Illyria to come to identify as female over time, but this this Connor storyline seems silly, forced, and unnecessary. Can't Bill think of anything better for Illyria to be doing?

[wenxina]

At this point, a oneshot of Illyria communing with a cactus and doing NOTHING else would probably sound like respite from all the bad characterization. And hey, conceptually, it could be a nice trippy experience, but they're going to need to get someone with some serious artistic vision to work it out. Would be even better if it were silent. Completely interpretive.

[Emmie]

Yeah, I'm totally fine with Illyria starting to feminize and identify with Fred. I just think that doing so alongside not knowing how to write Illyria, stripping her of her arrogance, her most exceptional use of language that makes her speak poetically...

This is not a person who needs help understanding words. She needs help understanding the context of the words. It's a big difference. She needs help understanding how the words manifest in the everyday.

And yeah, I'm saying her external genitalia are kept intact. But where and how does Connor become a viable candidate for her bizarre internal sexxors? It's a stretch already, then you add on the fact that she thinks he's the offspring of the "ooze that eats itself" and she thinks humanity is beneath her.

It's just a bad concept that's been given worse execution. Reducing the God-King to a "bitch in heat"? Yeah. Whatever.

[wenxina]

As I said, "bitch in heat" is not a good thing. And yes, the whole interspecies breeding thing is kinda strange.

[AndrewCrossett]

Willingham wrote quite a bit of inter-species sex in his "Ironwood" comic in the 90's. And "Fables" has Snow White hooked up with the Big Bad Wolf. (Albeit in human form.)