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Post by Peroxide Princess on Nov 7, 2010 21:15:17 GMT -5
And as I've said so many times is not important what you want, or what I want, or someone else wants. This is a Joss Whedon's story and he writes it as he wants! That's it! This is true. I think sometimes we get too wrapped up in our ships that we forget that it doesn't matter what we feel. They story will go on whether our hearts be broken or not.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Nov 7, 2010 21:44:27 GMT -5
I've not watched Angel in a while so I'm rusty on the specifics, but isn't the Shanshu apocalypse the one that W&H scheduled? I thought the reason they didn't just kill Angel is because they needed him to play his role (his evil role, as revealed in AtF) in their future plans. So far W&H seem entirely absent from S8 and appear to have nothing to do with the Twilight apocalypse, so I don't think this is the Shanshu we're witnessing. I don't believe there was ever any indication W&H themselves would be front-and-center in the Shanshu apocalypse... only that they were backing a side, and they hoped Angel would help that side to win. Certainly a Twilight victory would be in their best interests... this world handed over to Hell to be colonized, exploited and raped by any demons powerful enough to stake a claim. It's hard to imagine a more dire apocalypse than this one in the future, and the prophecy so far is right on the money: Angel has been a main participant, and on both sides. If I thought Joss was interested in crossing over the Buffyverse with the Angelverse in this story, I'd suspect that some of the main shadowy figures behind it all... the talking dog, Whistler, maybe even the Twi-lion itself, were agents of W&H if not actual Senior Partners. Since W&H will be factoring in to Brian Lynch's Spike series, it will be interesting to see if there are any hints in that regard.
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beeemkcl
Common Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 50
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Post by beeemkcl on Nov 7, 2010 22:22:26 GMT -5
More review/commentary
As for the Angelus thing, the Angel we know is Angelus being cursed for over 100 years and all the experiences after being cursed. So, this Angel-Twilight is in no way akin to Angelus. Pretty much in the Buffyverse, ‘Angelus’ is what ‘Angel’ would be like without the curse and all the guilt and whatever else the curse puts on Angelus. Like we saw when Angel was simply given a happy pill, he reverted into Angelus. The curse kinda acts like very powerful drugs to make Angelus more stable and better.
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We don’t know what’s going on with Willow. But it doesn’t seem she’s possessed as her eyes weren’t red-fiery. And we don’t know if the Seed has her under a thrall or whatever else.
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Why are some assuming that Buffy says “Twilight”? I assumed that Angel-Twilight says so.
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Killing Faith would be the stupidest thing that Joss could do from a marketing and business standpoint. Eliza Dusku is still young and hot and can still obviously do action scenes. And she’s a bigger name and celebrity than she’s ever been. And obviously she’s still willing to work with Whedon and she’s actually doing conventions. Besides perhaps Buffy she should be the least likely to be killed off. Xander, Dawn, and Giles can all be killed off without much impact. Tara was a popular character as well but the Buffyverse went on. And same for Cordelia, and to a lesser extent, Wesley. (And, yes, Michelle Trachenberg has gained more fame from Gossip Girl , but Dawn was never popular.)
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As for who the betrayer may be.
If anyone is going to destroy the Seed, they’d be doing good. Angel already had been betraying Buffy for some time as well as Giles has. Willow currently is betraying all of them. Unless Spike ups and decides to side with Angel-Twilight, I’m not sure how he can be the betrayer. But destroying the Seed is a good thing.
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Is the General a good guy? Who knows. But not wanting Amy to magically heal him doesn’t mean anything other than he didn’t want to be magically healed.
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We haven’t gotten clarity yet, but if Buffy was under an influence before having sex with Angel and if she still is when he’s around, she hasn’t been a bad person this entire Season and doesn’t deserve any punishment. So far, Angel and Willow do. As well as of course Amy, Warren, and possibly Voll. And Giles.
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What is so bad about the Frayverse? First off, it exists. It means that humanity is still around in 200 years. And it’s far from apocalyptic. Some people got turned into creatures from radiation yet some are still able to function in society and have power. There are great apartments, vehicles, people, etc. Society and social order still exist.
And a Slayer wasn’t necessary for 200 years. Remember the Pax Romana? Augustus killed a lot of people but there was peace for 200 years and that’s considered a good thing. Ridding the world of magic won’t make Willow happy or maybe other witches, but for 200 years of such peace it’s more than worth it.
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As for what Buffy was talking about after Giles tells her that he was possibly planning to kill her: We don’t really know. The lines were:
Giles: “The prophecy of Twilight was unclear—but terrifying—” Buffy: “I get it. All this started when we shared the power. We changed the world… bound to be some casualties. Wouldn’t be the first time for me. It’s what we do.” First Buffy for some bizarre reason is just accepting that Giles was planning to kill her. But for the rest, something that should be considered is Buffy resigning that she has to kill Angel. Earlier she separates: “It can kill me?” “It can kill Angel?” With this interpretation, the “bound to be some causalities. Wouldn’t be the first time for me. It’s what we do.” all makes sense and makes sense why the “It’s what we do.” is on Angel. Remember in “Graduation Day” (3.21) her first choice was to feed the bad Faith to Angel, but then she risks herself for him. This time, her first choice if need be would be to kill Angel, and if that somehow doesn’t pan out, then she’s willing to sacrifice herself. She’s able to sacrifice others and she’s also able to sacrifice herself. The “It’s what we do.” can easily refer to what Slayers and Watchers do. They are able to sacrifice others for the greater good and are also able to sacrifice themselves. Buffy’s former Watcher Merrick sacrificed himself for the greater good. And Giles has shown able to do what’s necessary for the greater good. Also, Buffy does what needs to be done to keep the world alive. So, the Slayer helped stop one apocalypse but now she’s having to deal with the consequences of that spell.
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
Posts: 684
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Post by iloveromy on Nov 8, 2010 11:36:22 GMT -5
I really really really think the seed is going to crack. I've been rereading through this season and here's what I think is going to happen:
I think Giles or Xander is going to slip in and break the seed. Maybe both. Xander is going to do it because he thinks he can help Dawn. What is going to end up happening is Dawn is going to fade away as a result of the magic being sucked away. I know this theory has been brought up, but I think the angle of Xander thinking he can save Dawn, only to ultimately cause her demise will be the most heartbreaking (very Joss).
This is going to cause Xander to be done with the gang. He, like Buffy in Season 2 is going to leave his friends. They will probably catch up with him in Season 9, but I think he is going to be done for a while.
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Post by abuffyfan on Nov 8, 2010 13:47:15 GMT -5
I think this season will end the way Fray foreshadowed: with Buffy and all magic being sucked into a parallel dimension.
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Shane
Potential Slayer
I saw a baby today.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 135
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Post by Shane on Nov 8, 2010 14:26:14 GMT -5
Angel is all evil again? Freakin' sweet! (Welcome to the dark side. We're really not that bad once you get to know us.) Willow turning all red at the end was pretty cool too. I wanna see her in a whole book that's done in that kind of red ink. It suits her quite well. Also loved that nine-panel grid structure. Reminded me of Watchmen. Kinda fitting too as almost everyone's guilty of something. Or will be soon. Killing Faith would be the stupidest thing that Joss could do from a marketing and business standpoint. Eliza Dusku is still young and hot and can still obviously do action scenes. And she’s a bigger name and celebrity than she’s ever been. And obviously she’s still willing to work with Whedon and she’s actually doing conventions. Besides perhaps Buffy she should be the least likely to be killed off. Xander, Dawn, and Giles can all be killed off without much impact. Tara was a popular character as well but the Buffyverse went on. And same for Cordelia, and to a lesser extent, Wesley. (And, yes, Michelle Trachenberg has gained more fame from Gossip Girl , but Dawn was never popular.) Killing off Faith would be quite unexpected of Joss. Usually the characters who die are seen as having been redeemed or almost there but Faith hasn't made much of an advance in that regard. This season looked promising for her when it started but not much came of it. And it would be a very different effect if someone who's on the right path gets killed off at such a time. Okay, *now* that sounds more of a reason in *favour* of her being killed off. And Joss might just go ahead and do it. He's weird.
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Post by Inappropriate Starches on Nov 8, 2010 14:47:24 GMT -5
I think this season will end the way Fray foreshadowed: with Buffy and all magic being sucked into a parallel dimension. I agree. I think at one point something was said like season 9 will be completely different, and sort of in a different kind of world which holds to the idea that the seed will be broken. And of course like you said, Fray is the first slayer in a very long time, and since it's canon now, we know that something has to happen and it sounds like this is it. As to who the betrayer is it could be anyone at this point, this comic seems to set up reasons for everyone to do something against Buffy. Willow doesn't want to give up magic, Giles will always do the right thing, even if it means doing something awful, Angel's gone all twilight again, and Xander wants to start a life with Dawn outside of all this. Any of the original players seem to be implicated, how and why the betrayal will happen seems to be anybodies guess.
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Post by Nick Scarlett on Nov 8, 2010 16:39:09 GMT -5
First time poster. Hope I'm not screwing this up. Here are some thoughts in general I would like to share.
I just started reading the comics with #34 after reading about Angel being Twilight, so I might not have some of the fatigue of the 4+ year season some people do. I'm enjoying them so far. Yeah, the plot about two characters having sex and birthing a new universe is a little crazy compared to the show (unless you count Jasmine), but it has put the characters in interesting positions, which I think is a plot's most important function.
Some have noted the similarities to Becoming, but I think this finale will be more complex. Becoming was mostly about Angel and Buffy, with everyone else moved out of the way. In "Last Gleaming," I think Giles, Willow and Xander will all make big plays of their own, each with different motivations.
If I had to bet, I'd like to throw in with abuffyfan on the "Buffy & magic sucked into another dimension" theory. Then Season 9 will be about trying to get her out. That might also solve another problem of how to get such a fractured fan base to read all the different books by tying them all together to the search for Buffy.
I've always been somebody who likes both Angel and Spike, but I've noticed on the boards it is mostly Bangels who are still positive about Angel. That group might have made up the majority of the fan base in the high school years, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Will non-B/A fans be interested in a Dark Horse Angel book after the events of Twilight/Last Gleaming, or has the character been rendered unlikeable to too many fans? Perhaps if the books are all part of the same story, it will mitigate this.
After years of playing the characters and fans against each other, I wonder if Season 9 might be a time of bringing them back together. Angel has some mending to do with the Scoobies. Giles (if he's still alive) and Buffy still have work to do to repair their relationship. And after years of being the outsider, wouldn't it be interesting to see Spike begin to have "screen time" with someone other than Buffy, the way he once did with Dawn & Fred?
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Nov 8, 2010 17:13:19 GMT -5
My belief is that the Scoobies, as we know them, will no longer be together as of the end of season 8. They may eventually repair things over the course of season 9, but I don't think things will ever be the same again, and some people won't be back. I've never been a Bangel or an anti-Bangel, or a Spuffy or an anti-Spuffy (I am a Batsu, however. ). I don't think either (or any) of those relationships will ever play out to the satisfaction of their advocates. Joss uses relationships as sources of fleeting happiness and lasting pain... that's just the way he rolls, and I don't see it changing, unfortunately. I think season 9 Angel will be formed from the knowledge that no matter how hard he tries to do good and get redemption, things only get worse. His tragedy is that despite all his best intentions, he has, mainly through his own bad choices, done more harm than good since we first met him in "Welcome to the Hellmouth." I think this will make him a much darker, angrier character. More like the Angel of "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been." I agree that season 8 will most likely end with Buffy and some others exiled to another plane, and the surviving Scoobies scattered across the universe.
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Post by abuffyfan on Nov 8, 2010 17:40:18 GMT -5
Killing off Faith would be quite unexpected of Joss. Usually the characters who die are seen as having been redeemed or almost there but Faith hasn't made much of an advance in that regard. This season looked promising for her when it started but not much came of it. And it would be a very different effect if someone who's on the right path gets killed off at such a time. Okay, *now* that sounds more of a reason in *favour* of her being killed off. And Joss might just go ahead and do it. He's weird. Given the diminished role Faith's played since the season began, I don't think they'd kill her off. It wouldn't have that much of an impact because she's been such a non-entity for so long. If someone's going to die, it'll be someone who's played a fairly substantial role in the season, like Dawn, Xander, or Willow. Giles is sort of in the same boat as Faith, except I could see them killing off the father figure because I think we've taken for granted that Giles will always be around.
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sire
Potential Slayer
Glad to see you've found the softer side of Sears[Mo0:0]
Posts: 143
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Post by sire on Nov 8, 2010 20:09:48 GMT -5
I have a pretty strong inkling it might be Giles with that nice little moment he and Buffy shared I hope not though. I'd like to see Giles back with an ACTUAL role rather then just exposition-man.
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Post by wenxina on Nov 8, 2010 22:44:59 GMT -5
New Behind Buffy Season 8 HERE. This time around, CBR talks to Georges Jeanty. Yes, there are spoilers.
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richie
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:1]
Posts: 170
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Post by richie on Nov 9, 2010 0:16:11 GMT -5
beeeemkl i think that they scoobies are on the hellmouth cause they're a team... they're stronger together... about the story... i know its not what we want(see tara's death ) but i really think that that make more sense about the casualities, buffy had a lot of casualities in her "watch" willow and xander best friend in welcome to the hellmouth, tara, anya, warren(he deserved it, but he was human and died), angel(she sent him to hell)... from all i read till now, i see that most of people thinks that the scooby will be no longer... and im with them.... i read that 39 will the the "lose all your hope, and suffer" issue... and maybe, just maybe... angel kills the one whos gonna die... that would put the end on the relationship and would put angel wayyy far from the scooby... i agree with you when you say that angel is best on his show... i think that too... and i think that illyria would own on the hellmouth...
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Post by abuffyfan on Nov 9, 2010 9:46:31 GMT -5
New Behind Buffy Season 8 HERE. This time around, CBR talks to Georges Jeanty. Yes, there are spoilers. Anyone else hope we get a new artist next season? I am so tired of his faceless background characters and his inconsistent likenesses.
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Shane
Potential Slayer
I saw a baby today.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 135
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Post by Shane on Nov 9, 2010 10:44:58 GMT -5
and maybe, just maybe... angel kills the one whos gonna die... that would put the end on the relationship and would put angel wayyy far from the scooby... i agree with you when you say that angel is best on his show... i think that too... and i think that illyria would own on the hellmouth... I like the way you think. It's kind of a weird feeling wanting your characters to be so evil. Joss's fault. *karmas* This issue just reminded me of (spoilery image) Fight Club.
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Post by wenxina on Nov 9, 2010 11:44:57 GMT -5
New Behind Buffy Season 8 HERE. This time around, CBR talks to Georges Jeanty. Yes, there are spoilers. Anyone else hope we get a new artist next season? I am so tired of his faceless background characters and his inconsistent likenesses. There'll be multiple books coming out for S9. Jeanty will most likely be on the Buffy one, with other artists taking over for the other books. To answer your question, no, I don't. I'm not sure how detailed you expect background characters to be, but "faceless" is the equivalent of "out of focus", which makes sense. And likenesses don't bother me most of the time. I like Jeanty's likenesses just fine. He tries hard, but I appreciate the organic way his characters act, rather than relying solely on likenesses, which is more than I can say for some artists. I'm particularly disdainful of artists who go so far as to trace images... I get wanting to capture a likeness, but I draw the line way before that point. More concerned about how the character moves and acts.
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Post by abuffyfan on Nov 9, 2010 11:51:27 GMT -5
I know about the multiple titles, Wenxina. I am very up-to-date when it comes to that information (which is why people who think Faith might die should be reminded about her Season 9 miniseries). I just don't want Jeanty on it. He's not a good-enough artist for such a high profile book. I could tolerate him on one of the minis but not another 25 issues of Season 9.
I prefer artists like Ethan van Sciver, Shane Davis, Jim Lee, Ian Churchill, and the late, great Michael Turner.
When you're doing a licensed book, the most important part is making the drawings look like the actors. It's a canonical continuation of the TV series, so the closest the book feels to the series, the better. And that means making the characters look EXACTLY like the actors. And Jeanty just isn't up to snuff.
I wish Jo Chen were fast enough to take on the monthly book. Her likenesses are PERFECT and her covers are always the highlight of the art each month. Her 3-page MDHP story with Joss was amazingly illustrated. She is the perfect artist for Buffy.
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cordangel
Innocent Bystander
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Post by cordangel on Nov 9, 2010 12:09:49 GMT -5
I'm not a Bangel fan, but a huge fan of Angel and I was very disappointed when I found, months ago, that my favorite character is the evil of s8.
This is not the Angel I know and love, the Angel of five seasons of AtS, After the Fall and IDW comics: He's an impostor I can't even recognize.
Joss has ruined an amazing character only to put him again at Buffy's service...
We, the fans of ANGEL feel the loss of an amazing, complex character and don't understand why joss put Angel in this mess of s8.
We can't say either. "stay away from him!" because AtS is going to come back to DH... this is too painful
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Nov 9, 2010 12:23:11 GMT -5
When you're doing a licensed book, the most important part is making the drawings look like the actors. It's a canonical continuation of the TV series, so the closest the book feels to the series, the better. And that means making the characters look EXACTLY like the actors. Joss doesn't believe that, and has in fact told Georges the exact opposite... draw the characters, not the actors. I've been happy with his work, and hope he will be one of the artists in season 9.
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Post by abuffyfan on Nov 9, 2010 12:36:12 GMT -5
When you're doing a licensed book, the most important part is making the drawings look like the actors. It's a canonical continuation of the TV series, so the closest the book feels to the series, the better. And that means making the characters look EXACTLY like the actors. Joss doesn't believe that, and has in fact told Georges the exact opposite... draw the characters, not the actors. I've been happy with his work, and hope he will be one of the artists in season 9. Doesn't matter to me what Joss thinks. It's what I think as a reader of these comics that matters to me. It's nice that Joss is happy with mediocrity but I'm not.
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