Shane
Potential Slayer
I saw a baby today.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 135
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Post by Shane on Aug 26, 2010 20:50:18 GMT -5
Oh, the deluxe thingy. Yeah, I should buy that. 'Cause I only have, like, 35 issues of Angel. (Hey, who threw that?) And yeah, no retcon. Retcon bad. janas: I think your English is much better than you give yourself credit for. And have a look at the forum rules and introductions. That should get you sorted. People there are really helpful. And if someone is being a meanie just let one of the mods know. They have all sorts of superpowers. Have fun!
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Post by riker on Aug 26, 2010 20:57:20 GMT -5
Because of Joss' involvement, After the Fall is the safest of all IDW Angel books from retconning/uncanonizing.
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beeemkcl
Common Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 50
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Post by beeemkcl on Aug 26, 2010 22:18:10 GMT -5
Why the move? I assume it's because of Joss. He had the power because he can give or take canon away. Most don't consider post- After the Fall canon and therefore sales are lower. Joss could have simply told DarkHorse to buy Angel or else he wouldn't name Season 9 canon.
As for what at IDW is canon? After the Fall is. And given Joss it seems is going to make the Spike miniseries canon, pretty much everything Brian Lynch did that makes sense is probably canon. Spike: After the Fall I always assumed was simply part of After the Fall . Spike: Asylum was pretty much made canon by After the Fall .
Although I don't know, I'd also assume Juliet Landau's comics are canon.
As for Scott Allie's feelings on Spike and what he can do to Spike: It's ridiculous to think that Allie could kill Spike off. I'm doubtful even Joss could kill Spike off. That'd still be a national news story and Joss would get backlash from probably millions of potential customers of Joss's work.
However, saying Allie's preference for Buffy/Angel and his dislike of Buffy/Spike and Spike can't have any possible influence or barring on what is written by DarkHorse is also ridiculous. Like that Buffyfest interview. We all know how much Jane Espenson liked Spike, liked Buffy/Spike, and preferred Buffy/Spike to Buffy/Angel. Unless something drastically changed during the years, I don't see Jane writing something suggesting that pretty much Buffy and Angel have been a couple this whole time and Buffy/Riley and Buffy/Spike pretty much meant nothing and have no significance. Jane doesn't exactly need the money and so she'd most likely decline writing such an Issue and making such a thing 'canon'. Also, this is something that should only be asked of Jane or Joss. Allie is just the editor. He doesn't make canon or decide what is canon. Or at least he shouldn't. So, unless Jane told him that's what she meant by those lines, Allie shouldn't be putting words into her mouth. And Allie was callous and flippant over the 'his hatred of Spike' thing and if he'd try to kill Spike off. The better answer is, "I'll go with whatever Joss decides. I don't make those decisions or have any influence on those decisions. It's the Whedonverse, not the Allieverse."
Will Angel be better? After the Fall sucked. Pretty much we only get insight into Spike. The Dru issues were good because we got more insight into Dru. Also, IDW really whored out the license trying to crank out as much stuff as possible. DarkHorse did only what Joss wanted them to do. But, if IDW knew that DH was going to be taking the license away, then it's more forgivable that they tried to milk the license as much as possible.
Really though, Season 8 we only get insight into: Dracula Buffy Willow (although not much, she's using magic for convenience and she really likes having magical power? shocking.) Oz
And that's pretty much it. Simply a lot of stuff has happened, there hasn't been that much character stuff.
In some ways, we learned more about Spike in Spike: Asylum than we did of any character in After the Fall and Season 8. And, we get more insight into the character of Spike than any other character in After the Fall and Season 8.
Even what they are now seeming to try to do with Angel isn't that interesting. Angel's a pawn again of the Powers That Be? What's new?
Should the Spike series continue with DarkHorse? I find Beck and interesting character to have in the Buffyverse. I'd like her to be canon. A firestarter? That'd be a useful tool to kill vampires and most demons. If Buffy/Spike is not to be, I actually wouldn't much mind if Spike/Beck were made a couple. They cannot simply brush off the existence of Spider and Co. They are pretty much immortal Slayers. Unless they are all killed off, that's a pretty glaring omission to never talk about again. I'd prefer Spike/Beck to Spike/Spider as with Spider, Spike is pretty much being with a less intelligent and powerful version of Drusilla.
Illyria: Unless she's killed off, this would be another glaring omission if they don't bring her over to DarkHorse. For me, Joss needs to come up with a valid reason why Spike wouldn't have such powerful people as Illyria, Spider and Co., Beck, etc. with him. Also, it'd be better if Spike has a hot, powerful love interest with him to possibly make Buffy jealous instead of Spike being there alone when Buffy just had a lot of sex with Angel. Unless Spike really has no more feelings for Buffy, I don't see how realistically Spike can be fighting with Buffy within 2 Issues of Buffy being with Angel.
Anyway, that's my thoughts.
Oh, as for Joss caring more about Buffy than Angel . Buffy is the bigger franchise and the character that he created.
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Post by wenxina on Aug 26, 2010 22:28:17 GMT -5
Look back in this thread and read the various interviews and Q&As posted. The reason why the Angel franchise is going back to Dark Horse is because Joss wants it so. It's been stated several times now. Apparently the Angel characters will feature heavily into S9. And IDW has graciously agreed to let the license go.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Aug 26, 2010 22:44:34 GMT -5
And IDW has graciously agreed to let the license go. Well, they've agreed to let the license go graciously is more like it. I don't think the actual losing of the license was optional for them.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Aug 26, 2010 23:00:23 GMT -5
As for Scott Allie's feelings on Spike and what he can do to Spike: It's ridiculous to think that Allie could kill Spike off. I'm doubtful even Joss could kill Spike off. That'd still be a national news story and Joss would get backlash from probably millions of potential customers of Joss's work. I don't think Joss would care. Judging from the past, the story is more important for him than the fans judgement. Do you mean that she would go against Joss wishes? From what I gather, he's the one who decides how important the Bangel relationship is. I also hope she wouldn't write something that wasn't true to the story because she needs, or don't need, money. Now what she thinks is true to the story, that's another matter. What? He's done amazing things for love. I don't think he'd care too much. He wouldn't want her to fight alone. And he might actually think/know she's under Twilight's "spell" (the place, not Angel). Not to nitpick, but he created Angel too.
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BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Resident Charmed Fan[Mo0:12]
Posts: 631
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Post by BlueJay on Aug 26, 2010 23:06:07 GMT -5
I thought Angel was created by David Greenwalt
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Aug 27, 2010 0:11:30 GMT -5
^^ I assumed all the main characters from the first season was Joss idea, but I guess that's jumping to conclusions. I don't even have an idea how many writers that worked on season 1.
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sire
Potential Slayer
Glad to see you've found the softer side of Sears[Mo0:0]
Posts: 143
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Post by sire on Aug 27, 2010 0:55:19 GMT -5
Joss and David Greenwalt co-created the show Angel. David Greenwalt was then the showrunner for seasons 1 and 2. Meaning he was there everyday when Joss also had Buffy to worry about. Tim Minear was the main Angel Man for series 3-4 then Jeffery bell took over as show runner for season 5. Although it is Joss' brainchild it seems his involvement in Angel was never as absolute as it was on Buffy. Which is one of the many reasons i dont hold much issue that After the Fall wasnt specifically written by Joss himself. I can only speculate, but it would seem during the shows run Joss laid most of the ground work on Angel and then let the respective show runners deal with the actual production...
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Aug 27, 2010 1:14:34 GMT -5
^^ We were talking about the character Angel, not the show. At least I was when I responded to beeeemkcl who talked about the character.
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BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Resident Charmed Fan[Mo0:12]
Posts: 631
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Post by BlueJay on Aug 28, 2010 21:57:19 GMT -5
Joss and David Greenwalt co-created the show Angel. David Greenwalt was then the showrunner for seasons 1 and 2. Meaning he was there everyday when Joss also had Buffy to worry about. Tim Minear was the main Angel Man for series 3-4 then Jeffery bell took over as show runner for season 5. Although it is Joss' brainchild it seems his involvement in Angel was never as absolute as it was on Buffy. Which is one of the many reasons i dont hold much issue that After the Fall wasnt specifically written by Joss himself. I can only speculate, but it would seem during the shows run Joss laid most of the ground work on Angel and then let the respective show runners deal with the actual production... Right, but I read somewhere that the Angel character was created by David Greenwalt for BtVS season one as a romantic interest for Buffy. I also read/heard that Joss wasn't too keen on the idea but grew to like it.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Aug 28, 2010 22:06:55 GMT -5
Joss and David Greenwalt co-created the show Angel. David Greenwalt was then the showrunner for seasons 1 and 2. Meaning he was there everyday when Joss also had Buffy to worry about. Tim Minear was the main Angel Man for series 3-4 then Jeffery bell took over as show runner for season 5. Although it is Joss' brainchild it seems his involvement in Angel was never as absolute as it was on Buffy. Which is one of the many reasons i dont hold much issue that After the Fall wasnt specifically written by Joss himself. I can only speculate, but it would seem during the shows run Joss laid most of the ground work on Angel and then let the respective show runners deal with the actual production... Right, but I read somewhere that the Angel character was created by David Greenwalt for BtVS season one as a romantic interest for Buffy. I also read/heard that Joss wasn't too keen on the idea but grew to like it. Yeah, the way I remember it, Joss never liked the idea of Angel, he thought a vampire-with-a-soul was a cheesy, clichéd concept. It was other writers and fan reaction which convinced him to keep the character around. Buffy was Joss' life's ambition come to life, Angel was just a happy accident. I'm sure he loves them both, but Buffy is and always should be his priority.
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Post by angeliclestat on Aug 29, 2010 10:49:28 GMT -5
[quote author=paul730 [/quote]
Buffy was Joss' life's ambition come to life, Angel was just a happy accident. I'm sure he loves them both, but Buffy is and always should be his priority.[/quote] I agree-so why doesn't he let the character be written by people who do care,and will *make* him a priority.Oh wait...IDW already do that!
Grumble grumble
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Post by wenxina on Aug 29, 2010 19:33:59 GMT -5
I think we should all refrain from speaking for Joss. His priorities are his own, and whether or not certain creations rank as high as fans think they should be is entirely speculative.
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Shane
Potential Slayer
I saw a baby today.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 135
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Post by Shane on Aug 29, 2010 21:11:08 GMT -5
Will Angel be better? After the Fall sucked. Pretty much we only get insight into Spike. The Dru issues were good because we got more insight into Dru. Also, IDW really whored out the license trying to crank out as much stuff as possible. DarkHorse did only what Joss wanted them to do. But, if IDW knew that DH was going to be taking the license away, then it's more forgivable that they tried to milk the license as much as possible.If it only affected other companies I'd be more okay with it but putting out so many books and continuing the numbering and not keeping people aware of Joss's involvement seemed exploitative towards not only Joss/DH but also some fans. I think it's that part some people have more problems with - if their favourite stories will now matter... And with DH, if they can pull it off, this has the potential to produce consistent, progressive and consequential stories for each Buffyverse character and interconnected storylines so I welcome this move. Also, Joss and Scott will be more accountable for any discrepancies and hopefully there'll be less "miscommunication". But I need more info on DH's preferred choice of writers before I get my hopes up. Unfortunately, with the timing of this news, that may be a long time coming. And with the possible canonization/non-non-canonization of the whole IDW Angel series I'm skeptical about the characters retaining their charaterisation and development from those books, especially the Angel ongoing post-#17; Angel has been victim to this on the TV show and now in Season 8. I think the DH Angel series really needs a similar group of writers/style of writing to maintain the spirit of the IDW series or even improve on it - the current Season 8 writers aren't a very good fit, IMO (Meltzer maybe - Identity Crisis was quite dark). And it's quite likely that neither Lynch nor Willingham will be writing for it (at least not when it kicks off) and that doesn't leave a lot of writers I'm familiar with. Kelley Armstrong, maybe.
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sire
Potential Slayer
Glad to see you've found the softer side of Sears[Mo0:0]
Posts: 143
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Post by sire on Aug 30, 2010 1:04:22 GMT -5
If Kelley Armstrong writes anythign in the Buffyverse ever again ill go on a hunger strike. Good grief Aftermath was awful :/
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Aug 30, 2010 1:42:35 GMT -5
Joss and David Greenwalt co-created the show Angel. David Greenwalt was then the showrunner for seasons 1 and 2. Meaning he was there everyday when Joss also had Buffy to worry about. Tim Minear was the main Angel Man for series 3-4 then Jeffery bell took over as show runner for season 5. Although it is Joss' brainchild it seems his involvement in Angel was never as absolute as it was on Buffy. Which is one of the many reasons i dont hold much issue that After the Fall wasnt specifically written by Joss himself. I can only speculate, but it would seem during the shows run Joss laid most of the ground work on Angel and then let the respective show runners deal with the actual production... Right, but I read somewhere that the Angel character was created by David Greenwalt for BtVS season one as a romantic interest for Buffy. I also read/heard that Joss wasn't too keen on the idea but grew to like it. Oh, I guess I was wrong. I hate being a inaccurate know-it-all.
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Billie Erin
Ensouled Vampire
"I go back to December"
"I picked up a hitchhiker. You've got to when you hit them."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,536
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Post by Billie Erin on Sept 1, 2010 13:44:19 GMT -5
I'm so glad Joss si taking control of Angel and co. again, sorry IDW- your first 17 issues were great and I loved Boys and their Toys but I think Angel and co. deserve to be back in Joss's careful and able hands.
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Post by angeliclestat on Sept 1, 2010 15:51:44 GMT -5
I'm so glad Joss si taking control of Angel and co. again, sorry IDW- your first 17 issues were great and I loved Boys and their Toys but I think Angel and co. deserve to be back in Joss's careful and able hands. Judging by Buffy #36 I would not describe his hands as either careful or able.
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Post by riker on Sept 1, 2010 21:03:37 GMT -5
Joss writes a great Angel in Buffy #36. Not sure what you were reading.
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