Did Dawn have a soul?

[leyki]

A question that i cannot just answer.

Did she have a soul?
And if yes, whose soul was it?
Did the monks just take a random soul and gave it to her?
Because, the key was basically energy, the monks changed its form and made her human, so she couldn't have a soul.

I would really like your opinions and thoughts in that.

[Eric]

I see no reason why she didn't have a soul. When humans are normally born (in the Buffyverse), they have souls. It's not anything that's really been explained. They just have them. Dawn's "birth" was anything but normal, but as a human, I think she had a soul.

[Skytteflickan88]

I have no idea. I don't even know what a soul is in the Buffyverse. Can it be created? Did they exist since the dawn of time(no pun intended)? Is it possible that one was created for Dawn, making it from scratch, or taking soulbits from Buffy, Joyce or Hank, and "copying" or stealing? Maybe a soul is created when the baby is on the womb, and all the monks needed was a piece of hair from Joyce and Hank to re-create that event? Or did they "borrow" a already existing soul?

I'll assume that Dawn doesn't have one until proven otherwise. Atleast not a human soul (I assume different species have different kinds of souls).

[Skytteflickan88]

@ Somnabulist

I don't think Lorne has a human soul, and he's a sweetie.

And it was never proven she was made from Buffy, was it? Buffy just said they shared blood, which makes sense, since she was created that way.

[leyki]

Well, in AtS, we saw a little boy that didn't have a soul...

So, i guess in the Buffyverse there can be humans without a soul.

Am i right, or not?

[Eric]

Aug 22, 2010 15:11:18 GMT -5 leyki said:

Well, in AtS, we saw a little boy that didn't have a soul...

So, i guess in the Buffyverse there can be humans without a soul.

Am i right, or not?

Yes, you're right. Buffy also had her soul removed by Kathy. The point I was trying to make earlier, though, is that from everything we've seen, all (or most) humans naturally have a soul. They can be remove or whatever, but it seems all humans are born ensouled.

Some people might consider Dawn a specially case because of the way she was created, but I don't see how that would prevent her from having a soul.

[leyki]

Aug 22, 2010 15:11:19 GMT -5 SOMNAMBULIST 2.0 said:

Yes, Buffy said, "The Monks made her out of me!"

Factoid 1) They share the same blood, 'Summer's Blood'
Factoid 2) "The Monks made her out of me!"
Factoid 3) Buffy jumped into the portal, causing it to stop. Dawn's blood created the portal, and it was told that only the blood that had opened it could stop it

You have a very interesting theory, and thanks for your reply.

Just a question, how did Buffy realize that Dawn was made out of her?
Did somebody tell her? I don't remember sth like that being said by the monk.
And how did the monks find a part of Buffy to create Dawn?
How they found her soul? Her blood?

I guess that's not just a question, but more

[Skytteflickan88]

@ leyki

You're right.

@ somnabulist

Buffy was never specific about what she meant by that, and for all we know, it just means "They used my blood to make her blood". There's never a mention of a soul, and it seems like they never had that much info on the Key or Dawn.

-EDIT

Aug 22, 2010 15:21:32 GMT -5 Eric said:

Some people might consider Dawn a specially case because of the way she was created, but I don't see how that would prevent her from having a soul.

I guess it depends on if when humans are created, when something is transformed into a human, does a soul naturally become part of the transformation, or do you create a human and then add a soul?

[Eric]

Aug 22, 2010 15:25:22 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

Aug 22, 2010 15:21:32 GMT -5 Eric said:

Some people might consider Dawn a specially case because of the way she was created, but I don't see how that would prevent her from having a soul.

I guess it depends on if when humans are created, when something is transformed into a human, does a soul naturally become part of the transformation, or do you create a human and then add a soul?

I don't think she was simply transformed in to a human. Frankly, I don't think the actually key is the same being as the character we know as Dawn. The key was merely a part of what was used to create her. We know that the monks used material from Buffy, so she is at least partially human, regardless of if she is artificial. That makes me think that she had her soul the moment when she was created, just like how humans get a soul sometime between their conception and their birth.

[niniel]

Yeap, leyki you're totally right.
The dying monk never said to Buffy that Dawn was created out of her, that was something that Buffy deliberately assumed and her rationale was that she felt closer to Dawn than to anyone else in the world. But then, that's not really surprising since she was her only family at the point...Joyce had died and her father was never present.
I think one way to look at it would be to assume that, since the Key was living energy, it had soul (or a conscience) to begin with. But then again, demons are alive as well so it doesn't really say much. And on an even more confusing note, D'Hoffyrn in 7x05 says "It requires a sacrifice. The life and soul of a vengeance demon", thus implying that even some demons who were initially human and were "demonized" later on might have souls.
The main thing that doesn't work for me in Dawn's storyline is that the monks created an illusion, changing only the memories of Buffy and her friends and family, so that they thought that Dawn was her sister. This means that Dawn was never actually born and the monk says "we gave it form, we molded it flesh, we made it human and sent it to you". Since it was living energy, all they had to do was change its form and give it flesh and that's exactly what the monk says they did. Plus, when Buffy says "she's not my sister", the monk does not disagree with that. This practically should mean that though Dawn looks like a human and thinks she's a human, she's not and, therefore, she shouldn't have a soul. I think that a more plausible explanation would be that the monks somehow traveled back in time and used the Key to create a true human child for Joyce and Hank, in the way that Jasmine used the life Angel won for Darla in order to create Connor. But that's not the case, that's why the whole thing doesn't work for me.



P.S. First post, greetings everyone!

[Skytteflickan88]

Best first post ever! Very good reasoning. And I had never even thought about the life Angel won for Darla. Could explain Connor's existence.

Welcome newbie.

[Scarygothgirl]

It also depends on in the Buffyverse where souls come from. Are they reincarnated or does every new child have one created?

I would automatically assume that se has a soul, maybe the the energy of the key is her soul.

In the episode where Buffy thinks there's a spell on her mother and goes transy to try and see the spell she can see Dawn being a spell. That kinda hints at Dawn not being properly human at all, I'd imagine if she was a proper human the spell would be around her not her.

[niniel]

Cheers, guys! Thank you for the warm welcoming!

Eric,
I think I remember Jasmine either saying or implying at some point that that was the reason Connor was born, but my memory fails me right now.

[Randi Giles]

Wow I never even thought about if Dawn had a soul or not. I like to think that she did. How she got it or where it came? No clue.

[SOMNAMBULIST 2.0]

Aug 22, 2010 15:25:05 GMT -5 leyki said:

Aug 22, 2010 15:11:19 GMT -5 SOMNAMBULIST 2.0 said:

Yes, Buffy said, "The Monks made her out of me!"

Factoid 1) They share the same blood, 'Summer's Blood'
Factoid 2) "The Monks made her out of me!"
Factoid 3) Buffy jumped into the portal, causing it to stop. Dawn's blood created the portal, and it was told that only the blood that had opened it could stop it

You have a very interesting theory, and thanks for your reply.

Just a question, how did Buffy realize that Dawn was made out of her?
Did somebody tell her? I don't remember sth like that being said by the monk.
And how did the monks find a part of Buffy to create Dawn?
How they found her soul? Her blood?

I guess that's not just a question, but more

I don't remember how Buffy had realized that. Since I'm making my Season Five Fights video, I'll recheck. And no problem for replying.

[The Girl In Question]

What little boy didn't have a soul in AtS?

[leyki]

Aug 24, 2010 0:09:11 GMT -5 The Girl In Question said:

What little boy didn't have a soul in AtS?

The one that was possessed by a demon.
There was a family in that episode with a little girl and a boy, the boy was the possessed one, don't remember the episode's name, back in season 1, i think.

[whitecandy]

I believe that when the monks created Dawn as a person, they created every element of her as a person including a soul. I just don't think she could have existed the way she did without a soul, she wouldn't have known how to feel or function properly. And as people have already stated, she was made of Summer's blood, and therefore had human elements.

[The Girl In Question]

Aug 24, 2010 3:29:40 GMT -5 leyki said:

Aug 24, 2010 0:09:11 GMT -5 The Girl In Question said:

What little boy didn't have a soul in AtS?

The one that was possessed by a demon.
There was a family in that episode with a little girl and a boy, the boy was the possessed one, don't remember the episode's name, back in season 1, i think.

Oh, okay. I always just thought he was a sociopath or something like that.

[midwesternwatcher]

Some background. The Angel episode you guys have in mind is "I've Got You Under My Skin," ATS 1:14. The boy's name is Ryan. This is from the script:

"Ethros: “I am Ethros. I corrupted the spirits of men before they had speech to name me. - The child was but the last among tens of thousands, one more pure heart to corrupt, one more soul to suck dry.”
Wesley: “Well, chalk up one exciting failure. You didn’t get that boy’s soul.”
Ethros: “Hmpf, what soul?”

Cut to Paige setting a cup of hot cocoa in front of Stephanie and Ryan.
Ryan: “She has nine marshmallows, and I only have seven.”
Paige: “Well, we’ll just have to write the Nestle bunny about that. (Kisses Ryan on the cheek) Drink up. It’s way past bedtime.”

Ethros lowering its hood: “Do you know what the most frightening thing in the world is? - Nothing! That’s what I found in the boy (Cut to Ryan staring at Stephanie as she drinks her hot cocoa) no conscience, no fear, no humanity, just a black void. I couldn’t control him. (Back to the Ethros) I couldn’t get out. I never even manifested until you brought me forth. I just sat there and watched as he destroyed everything around him. Not from a belief in evil, not for any reason at all.” "

If you want to learn more about "soul" in the Buffyverse, try the Buffy wiki, look up "soul" and then go to the discussion tab. I took part in that discussion myself. I'm called "zhandele" on the wiki. To sum it up, whether Ryan Anderson had a soul depends on what a soul is, and that question has at least two different answers in the Buffyverse.

Now, does Dawn have a soul?

Let's remember that the Buffy saga is not mathematics or history. It is fiction. It's a series of emotions that must make sense emotionally, if the story is to be any good, but need not make sense logically. It's all about feeling!

Season 5 ends with Buffy's sacrifice of her life. This is the emotional high water mark of the whole series, in my view (though if you put some other incident, like Buffy killing Angel, up even higher, I won't try to change your mind). Unless you think Buffy was a damned fool who died for a sentimental twitch or a silly mistake or for nothing, then you have to believe that Dawn was worthy of what Buffy did for her, and that Buffy's bottomless love for her was natural and legitimate. Dawn must be fully human in every sense. Of course she has a soul. We must begin with that as a given, and reason from it, not toward it.

Moreover, Dawn's connection with Buffy must be at least as deep as that between natural siblings. I'm proposing that it is even deeper. Buffy says that the monks made Dawn "out of me." I think Dawn is part of Buffy. She's the weaker and dependent part. She represents what Riley wants Buffy to "let out" and share with him, but she doesn't dare (and so loses Riley).

If any of you haven't read Joseph Conrad's novella "The Secret Sharer," I strongly recommend it. You'll see the same thing, two parts of one person represented as two persons, but in a 19th century way of speaking.