The Surrogate Family

[midwesternwatcher]

I'm starting this thread at the suggestion of Skytteflickan88, who is watching me. I hope we can talk about issues in the Scooby gang, which I understand a surrogate family.

It grew out of a suggestion I made in the "unpopular opinions" thread. I have the definitely unpopular opinion that Joss & Co made a major error by making Joyce Summers a sympathetic character. While I love Joyce as she is, I think the story would've worked better if she had been an emotionally empty triivial pseudo-mom, as she was in the 1992 movie.

The reason? The surrogate family would then have been more meaningful from Buffy's perspective (which is the perspective of the show, remember, she's the viewpoint character).

Of course there are other questions/issues surrounding the surrogate family, that's only one. I hope people will bring up many issues.

[Scarygothgirl]

I think I probably said my point in the unpopular opinions thread. But I'll say it again.

In the beginning of the show the whole idea of Buffy's character was that she was an incredibly spoilt typical cheerleader type. This wouldn't have been possible if Joyce had been dissociated from her. The place of the distant-mother-figure-character was then taken by Willow's mother, who then had effect of the shape of Willows character. I think it's better that the damaged shy character created from lacking a mother figure would be better as a side-kick and not the main character.
I also love the way Joyce becomes the mother figure for the whole of the scoobie gang. For example when they come round for sleepovers she brings them snacks and they do the whole lovingly being rude to eachother because they can. One of my favourite Joyce moments is her looking after Spike when he's just been dumped, making him hot chocolate. So cute.

[midwesternwatcher]

Becoming damaged and shy, like Willow, is not the only way to deal with a lack of parenting. Cordelia found another way. At Hemery, Buffy was very much like Cordelia. She even says so somewhere.

Was Cordelia spoiled? In some ways, yes. Her parents spoiled her in every way that didn't involve actually caring about her.

[lightandmagic]

I don't think she needed a distant mother figure to depend/rely on the scoobies as a surrogate family. She thoroughly relied on them in the beginning because she could talk to them about slayeresque things. And by the time Joyce was finally let in on the slayer secret, I think it got to the point that Buffy had already become thoroughly isolated from humanity in general.

It's been shown throughout the series that Buffy constantly closes herself off, and pushes others away, something that I think began after she thought she killed Angel and sent him off to hell. I don't think she needs the scoobies as a surrogate family because a lack of familial connection, I always viewed it as she needs them as a connection to humanity. She could easily separate herself from humanity and just thoroughly not care about the general populace's wellbeing (ala The Wish), but she needs the Scoobies so she'll constantly be in touch with humanity and not try and put herself above it. And that, in my opinion, is way more important than Buffy needing the scoobies for a familial connection that she lacked at home.

On the Cordelia front, I wish we had met her parents. If only for Cordelia to bitch them out. I always really liked the group dynamic between Angel, Wesley and Cordelia who became friends mostly because they didn't have anyone else. I think the writers underestimated how strong it had become at many points in the story, ala Cordelia not dropping by to visit Wesley after the baby-napping. Still irks me to this day; could have made such a great scene.

[Paul]

Joss said in the "Welcome to the Hellmouth" commentary that he originally intented for Joyce to never appear at all. He changed his mind and made her sympathetic because he felt it would be unrealistic and immature to have a "kids vs. adults" situation in the show. I'm glad he did, because the crappy parents of Sunnydale annoy me. I know everyone has issues with their parents, but it seemed like nobody in Sunnydale had decent parents except Buffy. Felt a bit... convenient? I mean, whether Willow's parents where emotionally distant or not, do you really think it's realistic that they would evacuate the town without her in season seven? Or Xander's parents would have no reaction to their son losing an eye? It was all a bit glossed over for my liking. I mean, even now, where are Xander and Willow's parents? Are they unaware that their kids are part of a supposed terrorist organisation? Are they really that ignorant and uninterested in their own children? Perhaps it's not relevant to the plot, but I'd like to see it addressed.

[lightandmagic]

Well it seems to be a reoccurring theme in all of Jossverse, that of the missing parents, especially father figures. I mean the only parents that are decent in any of his television shows are Fred's parents and Joyce. Everyone else is either a non-entity (pretty much every character), or seem to naive/unaware/ignorant of their children's actual feelings and who they are as people (Xander, Willow, the Tams).

It always kind of bothered me that in all of Dollhouse we never met a single one of the dolls family, I mean, wouldn't there be some mother or father out there desperately trying to find their kid who has seemingly disappeared off the face of the earth? I mean they're all supposed to be young and in their 20s, not so distant from their parents where they don't talk for pretty much entire years.

[midwesternwatcher]

Lots of thoughts here, I'm getting a a lot of ideas.

Here's one. As soon as Joyce died, Tara stepped into the mother role for both Buffy and Dawn. I suppose that reflects a particular gift that comes along with being Tara. It also sheds light on the Willow-Tara relationship.

Here's another. Suppose Joyce was not a sympathetic character, but Jenny Calendar had lived and had a romantic relationship with Giles. Jenny then could've been a mother figure to Xander and Willow (and presumably Oz, Anya, maybe even Tara and Cordelia) as well as Buffy. The surrogate family would've been fully functional for everybody, not just Buffy.

I think I can guess what some of you are going to say. I'm ready with my answers.

What Paul said, I'll have to go watch that again, I don't remember that. Was that a special feature or "audio over" commentary? But it seems to me that making Joyce sympathetic was not the only alternative to a "kids vs. adults" theme. Even without Joyce, we still have Giles, and a handful of teachers are also presented sympathetically, though none of them last long on screen except (drum roll) Jenny Calendar.

Look, I have a 25-year-old son. I'm a grown up if anybody is (an unsettled question). I'm the last person to endorse an "anti-grownup" position. But I get why kids need to reject their parents. I keep butting up against the limits of what I can or should do for my child.

A surrogate family relationship is an intermediate stage between living in a family and living alone, or starting a family of one's own. Buffy's surrogate family, as it seems to me, is an ideal that young people dream of but probably never attain.

Well, I'm a bit unfocused. I'm going to look for the Joss commentary right now.

[Paul]

Aug 28, 2010 21:52:17 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

What Paul said, I'll have to go watch that again, I don't remember that. Was that a special feature or "audio over" commentary?

It was an "audio over" commentary. I think the Joyce info occurs during the scene where Buffy picks an outfit for the Bronze in her room. Could be wrong though, it's been a while since I watched it.

I'm not a big fan of Jenny being the mother figure of the Scoobies. Don't get me wrong, I like Jenny as a sarcastic and fiesty love interest for Giles, but she never really came across all that maternal.

[Astray]

I think Joyce's role as a mother was essential. If her character was as absent as the other parents of Sunnydale, I think it would damage the depth of character development the show achieved. It is just too clean cut to have everyone break away from their parents and create their own chosen families. I think the show is so relatable, or at least to me, because of the character interaction is so believable even when placed in an unbelievable story.

Buffy's relationship with Joyce seems pretty full to me. Buffy sneaking out of the house in high school, Joyce struggling to support her daughter and be a good mother. Buffy and Dawn resenting each other for being cared for too much or too little by their mom. Then finally Buffy coping with the loss of her mother and struggling to take on the mother role for Dawn, pushing her further into adulthood. I really can't imagine loving the show as much as I do if all of that didn't take place because Joyce was out of the picture.

I think Buffy is the perfect main character because she simultaneously draws support from her actual family (Joyce, Dawn) and surrogate family (Scoobies) which I think is essentially what we all do. Without Joyce, Buffy would just become as shallow as a secondary character and the show would have to be called "The Scoobies".

I doubt any of that made sense, but I tried. My point? Joyce good. Me like Joyce.

[Scarygothgirl]

I agree with whoever it was that said they didn't think Jenny was particularly maternal. Sure Willow was pretty fond of her but Xander wasn't close to her at all and Buffy quite disliked her because of the whole Angel thing. So she may have made a good family with Willow and Giles but I don't think she would have brought them together any more than Joyce did.

[The Girl In Question]

Aug 28, 2010 12:03:03 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

Becoming damaged and shy, like Willow, is not the only way to deal with a lack of parenting. Cordelia found another way. At Hemery, Buffy was very much like Cordelia. She even says so somewhere.

Was Cordelia spoiled? In some ways, yes. Her parents spoiled her in every way that didn't involve actually caring about her.

Was it ever specified that Cordelia's parents didn't care about her or were bad parents? Her dad didn't pay taxes which in the end messed up his family's finances, but outside of that, we don't know much of anything about her parents. This is a bit OT but I never got the impression Cordelia's parents were absent parents. They just suffered from we-don't-need-to-show-the-parents-in-this-show syndrome.

[midwesternwatcher]

i got the impression that Cordelia's parents were also absent. For one thing, she never talks about her mother at all, or her father either except that he had money and lost it. Also, remember that Buffy-Cordelia scene where the latter says, "it's better than being alone." I think she's compensating, in the early going, for her lack of emotional support, which must include a pretty empty home life as I see it. I just don't see that she would be that nasty if she had good parents.

Me like Joyce too. Hey, I'll admit I'm of two minds about this. Part of me says, "it works, so leave it alone already." I'll even add a point in defense of Joyce being a good mother, one that nobody else has raised in this thread: the fact that Buffy has such a good mother makes it easier to believe that she is such a good person. Even I have a hard time seeing how Buffy could be so tender-hearted without a mother who was the same.

Now let me add this.

Jenny indeed does not come across as very maternal, but I think she had the potential for it. Certainly she was fond of Giles, and she was serious about her obligations to her people. And don't forget those great big eyes. She could've been made maternal with a little effort. And then imagine, for instance, Willow crying on Jenny's shoulder when Oz left. Willow didn't go to Joyce for comfort in that way because, despite all this talk about Joyce being a mother to all the Scoobies, she was after all Buffy's mother and not Willow's.

As I mentioned in the other thread, I think this business about Joyce being a mother figure for the whole Scoobie gang is, well, just wrong. It's a mirage, there's no evidence for it. I don't mean to offend anyone, but that's how I see it.

[tkts]

Aug 28, 2010 12:51:33 GMT -5 Paul said:

Joss said in the "Welcome to the Hellmouth" commentary that he originally intented for Joyce to never appear at all. He changed his mind and made her sympathetic because he felt it would be unrealistic and immature to have a "kids vs. adults" situation in the show. I'm glad he did, because the crappy parents of Sunnydale annoy me. I know everyone has issues with their parents, but it seemed like nobody in Sunnydale had decent parents except Buffy. Felt a bit... convenient? I mean, whether Willow's parents where emotionally distant or not, do you really think it's realistic that they would evacuate the town without her in season seven? Or Xander's parents would have no reaction to their son losing an eye? It was all a bit glossed over for my liking. I mean, even now, where are Xander and Willow's parents? Are they unaware that their kids are part of a supposed terrorist organisation? Are they really that ignorant and uninterested in their own children? Perhaps it's not relevant to the plot, but I'd like to see it addressed.

I can easily imagine Xander's parents more or less losing track of him and assuming he was already out of town. Or, for that matter, they could have moved out of town.

Willow's parents leaving town without her is a little harder to reconcile, but it's possible there was an offscreen conversation where she explained why she needed to stay behind. Or, as with Xander's parents, it's possible they had moved and were unaware of what was happening in Sunnydale. (As unlikely as it seems that an entire town could be in such bad shape that all its residents evacuate without the national media taking notice, that seems to be the way of things in the Buffyverse.)

[midwesternwatcher]

I haven't read the Angel comics very regularly, but I do remember a scene where Spike telephones a woman he knows in Las Vegas, hoping he can help him cope with LA Hell. She listens to what he says, but she's also watching a TV set where a news report from LA shows the city functioning as always. She hangs up on him.

We can sense of this in more than one way, but on any showing, there are two variations on reality here, one where LA is in shambles, and another where it's not.

Presumably there is a reality, or illusion, where Sunnydale is all right. Willow's and Xander's parents live there.

[buffyfan21]

I definitely see Joyce assuming the mother role in the scooby gang. If you think about it, both Willow and Xander's parents were pretty much absent from their lives. Buffy was the only one in the gang that had an active, caring, attentive mom that was involved in her life. To me, it seems only logical that Joyce would go on to become the surrogate mother for Xander and Willow as well. I can think of many examples supporting this. Joyce comforting Willow when Jenny was killed, countless sleepovers and dinners at the Summers home, etc. Not to mention the many things we can only assume happened "off screen." In all the time around Buffy's friends, Joyce would have to get to know them pretty well and come to care about them. Plus, they all took it really hard when she died. When watching "The Body," I always get the sense that they are grieving for much more than, "the loss of their friends mother," they are grieving because, in a sense, they have lost their mother as well. Even though Joyce was only a recurring character and we didn't get to see much of her overall in the series, I still feel that she was an integral part of the scooby gang as substitute mom. You just get this feeling that Xander and Willow would totally go to Joyce about problems they couldn't talk to their own parents about.

The scooby gang had made up their own sort of surrogate family; Joyce was the mother figure, and Giles the father figure.

I know that originally Joss wasn't even going to show Buffy's mother on the show, but I'm really glad he decided against it because Joyce was a great character and a great addition to the show. Not to mention, best TV mom ever!!!

I have also heard it said before that Jenny Calendar was like a surrogate mom for Willow. I guess I can sort of see this. Willow did look up to Jenny and she learned a lot from her. You can see that Jenny is someone Willow admired quite a bit. I think she was definitely a role model for Willow, more so than her own mom, which is really sad. I think Willow looked at Jenny and definitely saw some of herself, or at least the adult version of what she would someday aspire to be like. The fact that Willow was so distraught over Jenny's death definitely shows that she was someone Willow cared for a great deal, more than just a mere teacher at Sunnydale High, that is.

Does any of this make sense, or am I just stretching things?

[Scarygothgirl]

I think Willow saw Jenny more as an equal, someone who treated her as an adult and saw her potential in a positive light rather than just being a geek. If Jenny hadn't have died I could imagine her and Willow on shopping trips and girly sleepovers.

Now moving on to Giles. He is very obviously the father figure to Buffy, and I think Anya also sees him as a father (she always reacts as if she's fighting with Buffy for his affection, and always seems so put out when he gives Buffy attention). Whereas I don't see him as being the father figure to Xander, he seems a little too cruel and disappointed. I don't know, some people may see that as what fathers are like but it's very different to how he is with his other surrogate 'children'. Also I see Willow as more of an equal to Giles. Out of the main three scoobies she strikes me as the most grown up, and I suppose it links in with her craving for power (which I seem to be mentioning way too much, I need a new point to rave about) as she sees herself as an equal to all of the adults on the show, as opposed to the other scoobies who look to the adults for parental support.

[buffyfan21]

^^ You bring up some interesting points, Scarygothgirl. I like the idea of Jenny seeing Willow as an equal. In many ways Jenny helped Willow to hone and develop her skills in both magic and technology. Before Jenny came along, I think Willow associated her interests with something nerdy, geeky, etc., but then there was Jenny, a beautiful and accomplished woman who had many of the same interests Willow did. I definitely think Willow was influenced by Jenny a great deal, especially in her liking to magic.

As for Giles not being a father figure to the group as a whole, I can see where you're coming from but I have to disagree. Giles is clearly a father figure to Buffy, yes, and even Willow to a large extent, but I would argue for Xander as well. True, Giles has a tendency to quickly loose patience with Xander, he becomes easily frustrated, annoyed with him, etc., and is quick to anger with him. I think a part of this, though is that Xander is the only other male in the group. Perhaps Giles holds Xander to different standards than the girls? Perhaps he has more trust in the girls than he does with Xander because Xander is often seen making blunders and mistakes. Giles knows the messes Xander can get himself into, so therefore he is much harder on him. It could also be that Giles sees some of himself in Xander. He made a lot of mistakes in his youth and doesn't want to see Xander go down the same path. I do think Giles has a softer spot for the girls, but I don't think is hardness when it comes to Xander should be taken as not caring. On the contrary, I think if Giles did not care for Xander he would not stress over his behaviors much at all.

I agree with you about Willow seeing herself as an equal to the adults. Given that she is so smart, it is almost as if she is above childish things and has better uses for her time. Despite Willow's remarkable maturity in the early seasons, however, I feel that she desperately craves the attention and support she is missing from her parents at home, thus she turns to Jenny, Giles, and even Joyce looking for acceptance and recognition. Even later on in the series despite all her progression and character-growth, there is still an insecure young girl that lies within Willow. She desperately tries to compensate for it, of course, but there are times even later in the series when it is readily apparent. I think this, again, is what leads her to attach so strongly to Tara, and later, Kennedy.

[midwesternwatcher]

Sept 7, 2010 17:03:04 GMT -5 buffyfan21 said:

^^

As for Giles not being a father figure to the group as a whole, I can see where you're coming from but I have to disagree. Giles is clearly a father figure to Buffy, yes, and even Willow to a large extent, but I would argue for Xander as well. ...

Even later on in the series despite all her progression and character-growth, there is still an insecure young girl that lies within Willow. She desperately tries to compensate for it, of course, but there are times even later in the series when it is readily apparent. I think this, again, is what leads her to attach so strongly to Tara, and later, Kennedy.

Lots of things ...

Can't agree about Giles-Xander. It always seemed to me that Giles was very dismissive of Xander, didn't like him or respect him, didn't want him around, thought he was a liability to the group. And not without reason! I'll look for examples, see if I can find evidence one way or another.

Willow as an "insecure little girl" ... this is the subject of another thread started by tkts but he "blames it" on me. Willow is the "junior partner" to Tara in that relationship (see Tough Love) because she's the needy one. It's pretty unequal. After Tara threatens to leave, Willow seems to shape up somewhat, and I'm willing to believe the relationship was on the right track, until of course it was cut short by Warren's bullet. In a way, Willow's relationship with Oz was better. My hunch is that Oz, not being weak in the way Willow was, couldn't see Willow's weakness and never attempted to minister to it, so that the two were more equal.

[jtmaster13]

I think at some point though Oz might have seen what the magic was doing to her and would have had the same thoughts that Tara did. Oz left right as Willow was starting to mature with her powers and never really got to see what she was really capable of doing. Tara came in at that exact moment and she was able to see Willow's progress throughout the course of their relationship. I liked Willow with both Oz and Tara, because she had a different relationship with each of them, and the dynamics were different. But ultimately I think, had Oz stayed with Willow it would have ended the same, maybe not with Oz's death like Tara's, but the whole aspect of noticing Willow's growing addiction to magic. That's what I think anyway.

[jellymoff]

Aug 28, 2010 15:00:56 GMT -5 lightandmagic said:

It always kind of bothered me that in all of Dollhouse we never met a single one of the dolls family, I mean, wouldn't there be some mother or father out there desperately trying to find their kid who has seemingly disappeared off the face of the earth? I mean they're all supposed to be young and in their 20s, not so distant from their parents where they don't talk for pretty much entire years.

I always assumed that the Dolls were people who "Wouldn't be missed" by others; people with no families or people who were in a tough situation and needed to disappear. I get the impression that the Dollhouse would do whatever necessary to make sure people are not looking for them. I mean, if Caroline had all these friends and family in LA, someone would be bound to see her. There must have be precautions. Anyway, getting off topic here.