What do Buffy and Drusilla have in common?

[midwesternwatcher]

Buffy and Drusilla are very different, but Spike falls for both of them. They must have something in common. Let's talk about it, I wonder what'll come out.

One thought: they both have these sort of prophetic visions.

[Hallow Thorn]

Ummm.... They both have T&A.

[PJ]

Both are very strong and powerful Women.

[AngelFaith]

It's not just Spike who has an affinity with these two ladies. Angelus zeroes in on Buffy in much the same way he did Dru with the emotional/psychological torture.

I always wondered, if Willow hadn't re-ensouled him/Acathla hadn't swallowed him, would Angelus have gone as far in his torture of Buffy as he did Dru? Would he have eventually turned her? They would have made an awesome vamp couple.

On a more serious note, I think maybe Spike saw the dual strength and vulnerability in both Buffy and Dru. They both look so fragile at times and yet are both incredible strong (not just physically).

[tkts]

Oooh, interesting question.

In a way, I see few if any similarities. Drusilla, in her human life, was ultimately just a victim driven insane by Angelus. There's nothing to suggest that she had Buffy's resilience or strength of character.

I also think there are ways of explaining why both Angel and Spike were drawn to both women, without necessarily positing similarities between the two.

In Angel's sake, we're really talking about two different people. Angel loved Buffy, and Angelus loved Drusilla -- whereas Angelus simply seemed obsessed with hurting Buffy, and Angel seems disgusted by Dru.

In Spike's case, there's not such a dichotomy, but he loved Drusilla and Buffy at different times, and went through huge changes as a person in between them. You could even argue that as a result of his own changes, the things that drew him to Buffy were precisely the things that were different from Dru.

[joxerlives]

Sept 29, 2010 0:06:21 GMT -5 tkts said:

Oooh, interesting question.

In a way, I see few if any similarities. Drusilla, in her human life, was ultimately just a victim driven insane by Angelus. There's nothing to suggest that she had Buffy's resilience or strength of character.

I also think there are ways of explaining why both Angel and Spike were drawn to both women, without necessarily positing similarities between the two.

In Angel's sake, we're really talking about two different people. Angel loved Buffy, and Angelus loved Drusilla -- whereas Angelus simply seemed obsessed with hurting Buffy, and Angel seems disgusted by Dru.

In Spike's case, there's not such a dichotomy, but he loved Drusilla and Buffy at different times, and went through huge changes as a person in between them. You could even argue that as a result of his own changes, the things that drew him to Buffy were precisely the things that were different from Dru.

Remember Dru was also 'Chosen' by the PTB's, maybe she was even a Slayer in waiting? Compare and contrast the way Whistler shows Buffy to Angel and Darla shows Dru to Angelus.
The vamped slayer idea is as old as rent, you always wonder if she would be evil, as Spike proves having no soul doesn't mean there isn't a way back.
I've read some pretty good fanfic where Dru and Buffy hook up and they become a very interesting couple

[midwesternwatcher]

This is just a stab, I may wind up taking it all back, but ...

When somebody becomes a vampire, sometimes it seems the "shadow," the hidden or denied self, comes forward, as if the person were turned inside out. Consider Vamp Willow in The Wish, Doppelgangland.

When Angelus saw the human Drusilla, she was a deeply pious young woman, "cursed with the sight." He must've thought she would make a very interesting vampire.

Maybe what we need to do is to compare the human Buffy with the human Drusilla, about whom we are not told very much.

Another thought: We know Buffy was the linchpin of her surrogate family, the core around which it formed. Could we say Drusilla was the linchpin of a vampire ... family? I'm not aware of any other vampire who seemed to think of her grandsire as "grandmummy." Or do I forget something?

I started another thread about the vamped slayer idea. We all know it doesn't work, at least I don't know of any story where it ever worked, but I'm not exactly sure why.

Spike was drawn to Buffy because she was different from Dru? OK ... but can you elaborate? Exactly what was the point of difference that made Buffy attractive? Perhaps there was something about Dru that Spike didn't like, or liked at first but came to despise over time?

It always seemed to me that Spike was drawn to the darkness he saw in Buffy, the isolation and despair and bitterness. I don't think he was drawn to the good-girl exterior. When Faith called her "little miss tightly-wound," there was truth in that, was there not? But Spike saw something else. When Dru was alive, she would've been even more tightly wound than Buffy ever was, but ...

Gotta stop now or never will.

[tkts]

Sept 29, 2010 16:38:28 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

Spike was drawn to Buffy because she was different from Dru? OK ... but can you elaborate? Exactly what was the point of difference that made Buffy attractive? Perhaps there was something about Dru that Spike didn't like, or liked at first but came to despise over time?

I wouldn't say that Spike fell for Buffy because she was different from Dru. What I was thinking, rather, is that the traits that drew him to her are also those traits that are different from Dru's. A picky distinction, but I think a legitimate one... there's less cause and effect.

And I realize now that it's really hard to figure out exactly what it is that Spike sees in Buffy. For other people, like Xander and Willow, it's easy enough to extrapolate why they would like her even if they don't say it ... because they're human and we're human, and we can see qualities in her that most humans would find appealing and admirable. Spike, on the other hand, is an immortal semi-reformed sociopath; it's kind of hard to figure out where his head would be.

So we have to look for Spike's own statements, and unfortunately, the only one I can think of that really gets into the cause of his feelings for Buffy is this speech from "Touched":

"When I say I love you, it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you. And I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy."

So we do have some distinctions there; Drusilla as a vampire was decidedly unkind, and while she was physically strong except for the beginning of Season 2, her mental instability precluded her from being strong in the same way Buffy is. Drusilla has a lot of waif-like damsel-in-distress qualities, and Buffy definitely does not, particularly at the time when Spike falls for her.

[foxchyck]

To complicate matters more, I'd also say that Cecily isn't much like either Dru or Buffy.

I'd venture to say that he doesn't have a type, except that he likes *interesting* women, who surprise him. It's more about him being drawn to their flame than him wanting someone who props him up. He seems to like 'em complex and capable, and everything else appears to be negotiable.

(I've also wondered why anyone would have a thing for Buffy, but, eh, I guess that just means she's not my type.)

[midwesternwatcher]

No, we don't know much about Drusilla as a human. She was deeply devout, a much-loved and sheltered child, I'd venture to say she was unusually sensitive. As a vampire, she mocks the tenderness that she must've felt honestly as a human. Perhaps she "led with her heart," the same as Buffy does.

You say Buffy doesn't have "waif-like, damsel-in-distress qualities"? Must disagree there. At the very beginning, "Welcome to the Hellmouth," "chosen for what? to lose all my friends..." and so forth. Look at her eyes! Remember in "Amends," where she pleads with Angel not to kill herself and leave her alone. Remember in "Tabula Rasa," where she pleads with Giles not to go back to England. Remember "The Body," almost the entire episode. Most of all, remember "Fool for Love," where Spike goes to Buffy's house intent on killing her, but feels sorry for her and tries to comfort her instead.

Why does Spike love Buffy? I have an answer that makes sense to me. He loves her because her feelings are real to him, as real as his own. it's that "mystical connection" that is a cliche in Spuffy fanfic. What do you guys think?

[tkts]

Is there anything in the study of psychology that involves people with sociopathic personalities finding that there is one person they're capable of empathizing with and acknowledging as a worthwhile individual? Spike clearly exhibits sociopathic traits, even after he falls for Buffy -- see his acquiescence to Drusilla's murdering people in the Bronze in "Crush," his willingness to kill Drusilla in "Crush," and his attack on an innocent girl when he thinks his chip has stopped working in "Smashed." How do sociopaths love?

I don't know enough about psychology to go further, but I did just find this interesting article, which actually does seem pretty applicable to Spike:

Love may be blind for empaths, but a sociopath sees your faults clearly and loves you still. The sociopath's piercing eyes are not only unsettling because of their unwavering constancy, but because the sociopath's eyes can pierce through to your very soul, leaving you naked before his gaze.

The closest analog to a sociopath's love is probably the love of a child: intense, accepting, selfish. And finally, like a child, the sociopath will be extremely loyal. A sociopath will never put you above himself, but he will readily put you above all others.

This fits Spike in a number of ways. He does seem to perceive Buffy's faults quite clearly, and even sees her feelings more clearly than she herself does. The best example of this is his "You'll never be friends" speech to Buffy and Angel in "Lover's Walk," and her admission to Angel that "I can fool Giles, and I can fool my friends, but I can't fool myself ... or Spike, for some reason." And the rest of the description matches him pretty well too.

[joxerlives]

You must remember Dru and Spike (and those they sire) are the most human vamps we ever meet, possibly because of Dru's link to the PTBs?

Buffy has her darkness and so does Dru, again I think Buffy/Dru would have been a very interesting relationship indeed

[midwesternwatcher]

I must've missed something. Dru has a link to the Powers That Be? She seems to have some precognitive ability, but does it come from the PTB? Can I have a reference?

I love tkts, but I seem to always butting heads with him. I can't see how "sociopath" as a label fits Spike.

If you take the story on a literal level, then Spike is a vampire, and his depredations are normal for vampires. He fits into vampire society perfectly well. For vampires, humans aren't "us." Killing humans for them is like humans killing deer, or cows. Where's the sociopathy?

Now, if you read the story for subtext, on a symbolic level (as I tend to do more than most of us, I guess), then Spike isn't a vampire, but something the vampire legend represents. What would that be, exactly? That question need not be answered just now. The point is that if Spike represents something else, then so do his killings. He's not really murdering then. So where's the sociopathy?

Finally, if Spike is a sociopath, then what fun is that? Sociopaths are rarer than rare, thankfully, so whatever we may know about sociopaths is like what we know about Uranus, perhaps interesting in an abstract way, but useless in daily life.

I happen to think the Buffy saga says a lot about daily life. That's why I love it with such madness, and you guys would have to meet me to know how drooling rabid I am about it.

[joxerlives]

Spike is a sociopath in the sense he has no empathy with people, he genuinely doesn't understand why Buffy cares about Katrina's death, that's the difference between him and say Warren or Faith during her evil period.

Vamps generally don't seem to give a damn about each other but Spike and Dru and those sired by them (James and Elizabeth from Hearthrob, Darla in Angel season 2) seem to be a lot more human which is how Spike falls in love with Buffy in season 5.

[midwesternwatcher]

I didn't get that. He knows why Buffy cares about Katrina's death. He just doesn't think she should come forward and take responsibility for it. Even if Buffy had caused Katrina's death, as Warren temporarily deceived her into thinking, still there would've been no bad intent. I would've taken the same position. Wouldn't you? Seriously, didn't you think Buffy was carrying honesty a little too far, with that intended confession?

Spike understands perfectly why Buffy doesn't want him telling Dawn about his depredations. He seems to understand how Buffy feels about her loss of heaven. He understands how she feels when Joyce dies. He brings flowers for Joyce, and is sensitive enough not to bring a card. And for "negative empathy," he brings a date to Xander's wedding, he intends this to hurt Buffy, and he knows it will. That's empathy too! Remember when she confesses that she's hurt, he does a double-take: "I'm sorry ... No! Good!"

Sorry, I think he has all kinds of empathy. He just doesn't care about right and wrong in the human understanding.

You probably aren't a hunter, but maybe you know somebody who is. Hunters understand the feelings of the deer and rabbits and birds they hunt. They just don't place importance on those feelings, because they don't see animals on the same plane as humans. Now if you were a vampire, how would that fall out?

[joxerlives]

Oct 1, 2010 22:46:43 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

I didn't get that. He knows why Buffy cares about Katrina's death. He just doesn't think she should come forward and take responsibility for it. Even if Buffy had caused Katrina's death, as Warren temporarily deceived her into thinking, still there would've been no bad intent. I would've taken the same position. Wouldn't you? Seriously, didn't you think Buffy was carrying honesty a little too far, with that intended confession?

Spike understands perfectly why Buffy doesn't want him telling Dawn about his depredations. He seems to understand how Buffy feels about her loss of heaven. He understands how she feels when Joyce dies. He brings flowers for Joyce, and is sensitive enough not to bring a card. And for "negative empathy," he brings a date to Xander's wedding, he intends this to hurt Buffy, and he knows it will. That's empathy too! Remember when she confesses that she's hurt, he does a double-take: "I'm sorry ... No! Good!"

Sorry, I think he has all kinds of empathy. He just doesn't care about right and wrong in the human understanding.

You probably aren't a hunter, but maybe you know somebody who is. Hunters understand the feelings of the deer and rabbits and birds they hunt. They just don't place importance on those feelings, because they don't see animals on the same plane as humans. Now if you were a vampire, how would that fall out?

Again I would say that Spike understands that Buffy cares but doesn't understand WHY, for him dead Katrina is just an obstacle to get rid off

[midwesternwatcher]

Would you say that in any other case?

He understands that Buffy is hurt by his taking a date to Xander's party, but he doesn't understand why? Of course he understands why, and Buffy knows he understands. He understands her better than anybody else, that's why they hook up. "You've got no one else," he says, and he's right.

If what you say is true, then the whole Spuffy romance is a sick joke. You have a lot of Spuffy fans on the other side.

[joxerlives]

I think Spike loves Buffy as much as he can but without his soul it can never be the real thing as it is between Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Dawn etc That's why it's so important for him to regain it

[midwesternwatcher]

Spike does understand why Buffy feels the way she does about having possibly caused Katrina's death. I don't know why you think he doesn't. His disagreement with Buffy is about the next step. Should Buffy go to the police and confess? Are you saying that anyone who would advise her not to confess doesn't understand her feelings? That's a separate issue.

I don't feel like we're getting anywhere.

Oh, I just finished Wrecked. After Willow crashes the car and Dawn slaps Willow, we see Buffy, Willow and Dawn walking home while Willow is losing it. Buffy, being Willow's best friend, wants to remain to talk. She turns back toward Willow. We see Spike, in the background, picking up the cue and walking off with Dawn.

Now, that was a perfect example of empathy. Spike understood at a glance exactly what Buffy wanted to do and why, and supported her decision by walking Dawn home.

[joxerlives]

Oct 3, 2010 17:38:34 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

Spike does understand why Buffy feels the way she does about having possibly caused Katrina's death. I don't know why you think he doesn't. His disagreement with Buffy is about the next step. Should Buffy go to the police and confess? Are you saying that anyone who would advise her not to confess doesn't understand her feelings? That's a separate issue.

I don't feel like we're getting anywhere.

Oh, I just finished Wrecked. After Willow crashes the car and Dawn slaps Willow, we see Buffy, Willow and Dawn walking home while Willow is losing it. Buffy, being Willow's best friend, wants to remain to talk. She turns back toward Willow. We see Spike, in the background, picking up the cue and walking off with Dawn.

Now, that was a perfect example of empathy. Spike understood at a glance exactly what Buffy wanted to do and why, and supported her decision by walking Dawn home.

I think Spike didn't understand Buffy's pain, he says he's 'taken care of it' and for him that's the end. It's not his fault, he needs his soul to really understand. Without his soul he's like a blind man who thinks he knows what the world looks like but really has no idea