dane5by5
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Post by dane5by5 on Jan 10, 2008 8:57:09 GMT -5
I believe you that the homophobia inherent in society last century filtered through into film and television, but I still think that people that chose to view it that way and looking at it with a "glass half empty" mentality, why can't they appreciate what they were given (which was the first realistically portrayed gay couple on television) instead of spinning it into a continuation of a cliche and an attack on homosexual couples.
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dane5by5
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Post by dane5by5 on Jan 10, 2008 9:11:06 GMT -5
Most of those people are much older men and women, people that saw the disgusting depictions of gay people from the 40s and on. There is a trend. Gay people aren't allowed to be happy in the end. Everyone knows how free-thinking and embracing of the gay community as Joss is, and I think they just felt betrayed that he would give us what we wanted and then take it away (like everyone else has done, before him). But Joss is a true storyteller and was focusing as he should, on the story, and not about how the audience would feel. I commend him on being brave and doing what he did. It still does make me sad though that the best gay couple EVER in media is over, so I understand where the gay groups were coming from. In a sense, the way their relationship ended was even more embracing of they gay community than if they had continued as a couple. It humanised them as a couple, drawing comparisons to every other relationship in the Buffyverse, it was a way of saying, just because they are a gay couple doesn't make them any different to any other couple in this story.
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Post by Giant Michael on Jan 10, 2008 9:51:32 GMT -5
I think if Joss could have gone with his original plan to bring Tara back, everything would have been perfect. Except for the part where bringing Tara back with a wish was utter, fan-pleasing bollocks. The fact that so many people still wish it had never happened proves how devastating Tara's death was, and how vital it was to the show. To bring her back - especially as part of some crazy fairy godmother nonsense - would cheapen one of the key moments of the show's history. MB x
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Slayer489
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Why do I feel like this? Why do I let Spike do those things to me?" - Buffy 'Dead Things'[Mo0:0]
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Post by Slayer489 on Jan 10, 2008 11:42:51 GMT -5
I think if Joss could have gone with his original plan to bring Tara back, everything would have been perfect. Except for the part where bringing Tara back with a wish was utter, fan-pleasing bollocks. The fact that so many people still wish it had never happened proves how devastating Tara's death was, and how vital it was to the show. To bring her back - especially as part of some crazy fairy godmother nonsense - would cheapen one of the key moments of the show's history. MB x I completely agree. Also, Willow and Kennedy were the only couple to make it out of Sunnydale alive. (unless you count Faith and Robin but that was just a fling really I thought) I think that says something about the show and how gay people can have a happy ever after.
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Melissa
Rogue Demon Hunter
I'm gonna be a fireman when the floods roll back.[Mo0:16]
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Post by Melissa on Jan 10, 2008 16:18:06 GMT -5
Willow and Tara had been through so much together. And they made it through. Tara's murder and Willow's reaction to it (Dark Willow) was a tragic but fitting end to the story. Of course I wish she hadn't died. But bringing her back would have cheapened it. We know they loved each other so much. And we know how much Willow still loves Tara. I don't think that their love will ever end.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 10, 2008 17:39:15 GMT -5
Willow and Kennedy, Willow and Kennedy!
I thought gay communities would be glad that the gay couples in Buffy were treated as normal. To have a gay couple survive a show were couples are doomed just because they are gay undermines everything. Their portrayal was completely positive. That shouldn't be ignored because Joss loves killing his characters lol.
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commandercool
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Post by commandercool on Jan 10, 2008 17:50:41 GMT -5
"Joss loves to kill his characters" is an understatement. The man beleives that the only entertainment is in conflict to a truly absurd level. I give Willow and Kennedy 5 issues before they break up for an extended period of time or one of them dies or something. I think the main reason they were the only couple still together at the end of the show was because they were only together for like 8 epsiodes. Give it time, and they will fall apart too. Or maybe Joss will surprise us and let them be happy.
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Post by Giant Michael on Jan 10, 2008 19:15:13 GMT -5
Except, it would have been something that's never been done before A character coming back from the dead? Have we been watching the same show? It would have been perfect, literally perfect. But you'll never agree, so we can just agree to disagree. When you post on a forum you enter into a debate. Agreeing to disagree is not playing by the rules, in my book. I'm not talking about arguing back and forth, or posting snippy comments, but actually putting forth a case for what you're saying. I'm genuinely interested in how you think Tara coming back would have been - or would be, we'll see - 'literally perfect'. At this point, with Willow being 'in love' with Kennedy, I think it would create some interesting conflict, but I still don't think that would justify cheapening one of the shows defining moments. Don't get me wrong, I love Tara, she's one of my favourite characters. But if we're going to see Willow reunited with anyone, I'd much rather see how things would play out with Oz. Not as a couple, of course - I don't think Willow would go there again, and I don't think Joss is that stupid to piss off that many of his fans - but there would be a really unique dynamic between them as characters. I would have been a very, very happy person as a viewer and a writer. Unless you're writing fanfiction or nearing the end of a gruelling story, there's very little gratification in writing about happy people leading happy lives. Story - life! - is about struggle and conflict. That's what keeps things interesting. MB x
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matthewblake
Respected Watcher
Is it bright where you are?[Mo0:0]
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Post by matthewblake on Jan 10, 2008 19:37:39 GMT -5
well said, Giant Michael.
bless you.
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Post by cheungcheung on Jan 10, 2008 19:47:01 GMT -5
i also think that if tara came back in the propsed fashion, that it would have been perfect.
it would have also been a nice buffy-willow friendship moment which was desperately needed at the tail end of season 7...
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Lukee
Ensouled Vampire
Brilliant is my middle name tbf[Mo0:14]
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Post by Lukee on Jan 10, 2008 21:02:22 GMT -5
MO i think Tara coming back would be wrong. She needs to stay dead. As much as i liked her i think tis for the best for her to stay dead. I feel her coming back after so many people wanted it would just make people think that 'oh well if we just complain about a character being dead they will bring it back' Plus like some one earlier said it would cheapen it. Tara's death was sad and dramatic bringing her back would only ruin it imo...
I don't see why people compliant about her death and connected it to being gay.... thats stupid. So because there gay they should have had a happy ever after... that would just be stupid..i don't see why a gay couple cant have a non-happy ending just like non gay couples. Thats just segregating them in my books. Theres been gay characters on other shows and films that have a happy ever afters its not all doom and gloom. I think they where just seeing stuff thats not there.
Also was this issue printed onto diffrent paper....? It felt diffrent.
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Slayer489
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Why do I feel like this? Why do I let Spike do those things to me?" - Buffy 'Dead Things'[Mo0:0]
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Post by Slayer489 on Jan 11, 2008 10:55:32 GMT -5
Also was this issue printed onto diffrent paper....? It felt diffrent. Yeah I think it was.
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faith0tvs
Novice Witch
I am the Slayer ask me How[Mo0:4]
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Post by faith0tvs on Jan 11, 2008 13:13:36 GMT -5
First of all you take for granted one thing :the way that Tara wull come back..Who says that it will be by any good means?What if she doesnt ressurect from a wish or something similar? When it comes to Tara coming back i tend to think of a Jean Gray /Dark Phoenix type of return..Imagine how intresting would that be...Tara fighting for the wrong side for some pretty justified reason..Wouldnt that be wonderful? And i dont think that it would erase or modigy the consequences of her death for it has already made an impact on the characters...Besides it would be rather intresting story and characterwise to see Tara as the Btvs's very own Dark Phoenix Besides who told you that if Tara comes back she would definetelly want to get Willow back?
Then again think of Ganda;f's death in lord of the rings did his return as Gandalf the White change any of the effects that his passing caused?Nope....Not to say that she has played the same part that dear ol Gandalf did for the Fellowship
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Lukee
Ensouled Vampire
Brilliant is my middle name tbf[Mo0:14]
Posts: 1,137
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Post by Lukee on Jan 11, 2008 14:18:29 GMT -5
First of all you take for granted one thing :the way that Tara wull come back..Who says that it will be by any good means?What if she doesnt ressurect from a wish or something similar? When it comes to Tara coming back i tend to think of a Jean Gray /Dark Phoenix type of return..Imagine how intresting would that be...Tara fighting for the wrong side for some pretty justified reason..Wouldnt that be wonderful? And i dont think that it would erase or modigy the consequences of her death for it has already made an impact on the characters...Besides it would be rather intresting story and characterwise to see Tara as the Btvs's very own Dark Phoenix Besides who told you that if Tara comes back she would definetelly want to get Willow back? They done thr Jean Gray thing. Dark Willow and all. If they did that for Tara it would just be more or less like Dark Willow. Same old same old.
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gloriousone
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Post by gloriousone on Jan 11, 2008 15:02:15 GMT -5
I think Tara was kind of like Gwen Stacy in Spiderman comics. Her death has became so important part of the story that you can't bring her back,even if you want to. About history of gays in cinema...it has nothing to do with Tara being gay imo.If Oz and Will had been together in Season 6,he would've died too. It was inevitable.But i understand what mikey is saying,killing gays off is a big cliché in sinema and tv.At least Willow is still alive :witch:
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juniorwatcher
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Post by juniorwatcher on Jan 11, 2008 18:32:05 GMT -5
Yeah in one of the Season 7 commentaries Joss says that even if Oz stayed on the show, he would've died, they were planning on it either way.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Jan 11, 2008 19:00:28 GMT -5
Yeah Willow was always going to go bad over the death of her lover. No matter if it were the death of Oz, or Tara. It was in S4 that it was decided to make Willow gay. Actually the original script for Tough Love had Tara dying at the hand of Glory!
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Melissa
Rogue Demon Hunter
I'm gonna be a fireman when the floods roll back.[Mo0:16]
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Post by Melissa on Jan 11, 2008 19:12:32 GMT -5
Wow. Thats interesting. I'm glad Tara lasted for another season. Glory was a very comedic villain and I think it would have cheapened Tara's death had Glory killed her.
I'm glad they didn't kill Oz off. I have a soft spot for him because he was in the early seasons, which in my opinion are the best.
I didn't know they had all that stuff planned so far into the future. Thanks for the info juniorwatcher and CowboyGuy!
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gloriousone
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Post by gloriousone on Jan 12, 2008 4:54:17 GMT -5
Glory was a comedic villain? I don't think Warren was a cool big bad either.Most of the time i find him boring and never really understand what his motives were."I will kill slayer" Boo,even Harmony had superpowers and sounded more threatening when she said that.
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alycat7
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Post by alycat7 on Jan 12, 2008 9:26:42 GMT -5
warren wasn't threatening, he was just psychotic.
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