Wolves At The Gate: Buffy and Satsu

[Enisy]

koven said:

Either way, I don't see this as regression for Buffy. We all like to think we learn from mistakes but I, for one, know that I'm more than capable of making them again, under different circumstances. Buffy is no different.

In real life, sure. However, rehashing old storylines or thoroughly explored character weaknesses and mistakes (which Buffy herself acknowledged and deeply regretted in at least four episodes) in a series as innovative as Buffy... would be pretty lame. So I'm hoping Scott Allie was wrong in his implications about the Buffy/Satsu relationship.

[Emmie]

I was looking at "A Beautiful Sunset" in considering Buffy's motivation for sleeping with Satsu, specifically the last scenes with Satsu/Buffy and Buffy/Xander.

Buffy says to Satsu as they're holding hands in the hospital: "we'll heal"

then in the next scene she's talking to Xander about her emotional isolation: "Connection. Why can't I feel it?"

The next scene with Buffy is when she's lying in bed with Satsu. This leads me to believe that Buffy slept with Satsu in order to feel connected and heal her inner pain (besides the whole physical satisfaction and fun). But since when has having sex in order to feel something ever worked out well for Buffy? why does her desire to feel connected mean she jumps into bed with someone? comfort and intimacy can come from other meaningful acts and relationships, and neither one is guaranteed through sex. Not exactly healthy behavior.

Buffy needs some therapy, stat. i'm serious, this girl has been put through the ringer so many times i'm surprised she can tell which way is up. joss needs to introduce a new character who's a pyschologist. that actually might be kinda funny - imagine Andrew psyc 101-ing Buffy

[koven]

emmie said:

Considering how much Joss loves to foreshadow future happenings, you'd think there would have been some indication from Buffy. Maybe I missed it, but you/anyone feel free to tell me.

I actually don't think you missed any specific foreshadowing. I actually believe that the whole point of this was that it was totally unplanned and out of nowhere. Heat of the moment, if you will.

The closest thing to foreshadowing here would probably have to be Buffy's fear of getting back into another serious relationship after what has happened over the past years. Her cookie dough speech to Angel was a sure sign that she wasn't looking for another full on romance. Add that to the fact that back in issue one she mentioned how much she missed sex and you have all the reasons you need for what happened with Satsu. I'd say that there aren't many better ways of avoiding falling in love after sex than doing it with a someone of a gender you have absolutely no interest in.

enisy said:

In real life, sure. However, rehashing old storylines or thoroughly explored character weaknesses and mistakes (which Buffy herself acknowledged and deeply regretted in at least four episodes) in a series as innovative as Buffy... would be pretty lame. So I'm hoping Scott Allie was wrong in his implications about the Buffy/Satsu relationship.

This is less a rehash and more Buffy realising that she has made the same mistake again, despite herself, I would say. It's only the same story if it's the exact same situation. Clearly this time there are very different factors involved and Buffy will have to deal with the fallout in a very different way.

[Rachster]

emmie said:

I was looking at "A Beautiful Sunset" in considering Buffy's motivation for sleeping with Satsu, specifically the last scenes with Satsu/Buffy and Buffy/Xander.

Buffy says to Satsu as they're holding hands in the hospital: "we'll heal"

then in the next scene she's talking to Xander about her emotional isolation: "Connection. Why can't I feel it?"

The next scene with Buffy is when she's lying in bed with Satsu. This leads me to believe that Buffy slept with Satsu in order to feel connected and heal her inner pain (besides the whole physical satisfaction and fun). But since when has having sex in order to feel something ever worked out well for Buffy? why does her desire to feel connected mean she jumps into bed with someone? comfort and intimacy can come from other meaningful acts and relationships, and neither one is guaranteed through sex. Not exactly healthy behavior.

Buffy needs some therapy, stat. i'm serious, this girl has been put through the ringer so many times i'm surprised she can tell which way is up. joss needs to introduce a new character who's a pyschologist. that actually might be kinda funny - imagine Andrew psyc 101-ing Buffy

exactly so where does this leave poor satsu... buffy does need therapy

[Emmie]

i think it leaves satsu getting hurt because i don't see buffy reaching an epiphany on how she relates to people anytime soon. which is just heartbreaking for satsu. that's why i'm not for the buffy/satsu development. i'd like for buffy to be in a relationship where she can be emotionally open, but i don't know if she's capable of that. it's just incredibly sad, but maybe i can't begrudge buffy and satsu for reaching for 'life' when they risk their lives everyday.

[koven]

buffyfanforever said:

exactly so where does this leave poor satsu... buffy does need therapy

I'm not really sure that this is something you could say requires therapy. Like I've said before, and without wanting to disregard how Satsu might feel when she realises this isn't going to lead to a relationship with Buffy, she isn't the first girl to have sex with someone they think they love only to find out that sex was all it was to the other person. Whatever Buffy's motives, Satsu will have to get over it.

In a way, what Buffy did here was put herself on the opposite side of the issue to what happened with her and Parker. Before, Buffy was the one with the hopes of a relationship whilst Parker was only looking for a good roll in the sack. This time, although for very different reasons, Satsu will be the injured party and Buffy will appear the bad guy.

Still, Buffy got over Parker just as Satsu will get over Buffy. Buffy may well need therapy for larger problems but this is the sort of mistake that any one of us can make.

[xmadxscientistx]

Agreed on the therapy.

[Emmie]

I'm not saying Buffy having sex with Satsu means she needs therapy. But that she clearly has emotional issues and problems with reaching out to people, issues she's acknowledged before. Her having sex with Satsu is an example how she reaches out, imo, in not the most healthy manner. I think it was a mistake b/c she's not moving forward. These issues affect how she deals with people and esp. regarding romantic and sexual relationships. Buffy has so many serious issues in nearly every area of her life, she needs therapy to work thru them. The mistake that "anyone of us can make", Buffy makes because of her emotional issues. I think she could use help figuring out alot of her own hangups and fears.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

emmie said:

With Buffy and Satsu, I felt like only Satsu's desire was clearly expressed and not Buffy's - is there a moment someone can point to that showed Buffy was into Satsu sexually?

I'm not asking for my hand to be held thru every little detail, been a fan for over 10 yrs and I know thats not how it works, but a little indication of Buffy's interest would have made the scene more explicable and convincing for me. Considering how much Joss loves to foreshadow future happenings, you'd think there would have been some indication from Buffy. Maybe I missed it, but you/anyone feel free to tell me.

Of course there's nothing that points and says specifically, "Look, Buffy's got the hots for Satsu!" However:
** Buffy is lonely. Willow's been mostly gone for a year or more, she and Giles are not on the best of terms, nor is she and Dawn, so except for Xander, she's feeling more isolated than she has for some time.
** She hasn't been in a relationship since Sunnydale collapsed, there really aren't any likely prospects around but Xander, and with all the Slaying, she's feeling the pressure.
** As far back in the first issue, Buffy comments that Satsu "has her best hair ever." At the time, it looked like a typical throwaway line. In retrospect, though... well, wait a minute.
** Buffy tells Satsu, "It wasn't just the lip gloss. I sorta would have figured it out anyway. And I'm pretty sure other people have." So, she's noticed Satsu noticing her, she just hadn't added it up yet. (Leah has noticed, too; and she's also noticed Buffy noticing Satsu, although I suspect she jumped to conclusions that weren't valid at the time. Or maybe she just assumed where things were leading. Or maybe she just took a tiny step and there conclusions were...)
** "You're hot, you have great taste, you're a hell of a Slayer, and you smell good." Satsu's hot, and she smells good? I don't know about everybody else, but that's an unusual way to notice someone that you don't have some interest in. (I'm not interested in other guys, and I can honestly say that I've never thought about any of my guy friends that way...) Remember the hair comment?
** Because of Amy's spell, she knows that Satsu really is in love with her. She's flattered, and "feels a little less lonely."
** Satsu jumps to Buffy's defense against Twilight without hesitating, and gets hammered in the process - that's a dandy pool of blood she's lying in (disclaimer: I've seen enough head wounds, though, to know that they bleed like crazy - and a little blood often looks like more than it is.) Buffy holds her while Satsu cries on her shoulder, not about her injuries, but because she feels she let Buffy down. Later, Satsu's the one in the infirmary, but she's concerned about Buffy. Okay, if Buffy didn't feel lonely before, she's certainly going to after this.

The point of all this is: there's nothing that points and says specifically, "Look, Buffy's got the hots for Satsu!" But there are things that show Buffy has noticed Satsu, appreciates her and her attention, isn't turned off by that attention, and is in a place right now where she might well be receptive to that attention. I would like to see the specific circumstances that led up to their "wonderful night," but I figure we'll hear more about it. As far as surprising the audience, I'd rather be surprised than see everything coming a mile off.


ETA: I should have been writing instead of watching TV while I was working on this post; maybe I could have gotten it in before the thread moved on so far (sigh...)

[Rachster]

koven said:

buffyfanforever said:

exactly so where does this leave poor satsu... buffy does need therapy

I'm not really sure that this is something you could say requires therapy. Like I've said before, and without wanting to disregard how Satsu might feel when she realises this isn't going to lead to a relationship with Buffy, she isn't the first girl to have sex with someone they think they love only to find out that sex was all it was to the other person. Whatever Buffy's motives, Satsu will have to get over it.

In a way, what Buffy did here was put herself on the opposite side of the issue to what happened with her and Parker. Before, Buffy was the one with the hopes of a relationship whilst Parker was only looking for a good roll in the sack. This time, although for very different reasons, Satsu will be the injured party and Buffy will appear the bad guy.

Still, Buffy got over Parker just as Satsu will get over Buffy. Buffy may well need therapy for larger problems but this is the sort of mistake that any one of us can make.

yes but Buffy wasn't in love with parker satsu's in love with Buffy

[koven]

emmie said:

I'm not saying Buffy having sex with Satsu means she needs therapy. But that she clearly has emotional issues and problems with reaching out to people, issues she's acknowledged before. Her having sex with Satsu is an example how she reaches out, imo, in not the most healthy manner. I think it was a mistake b/c she's not moving forward. These issues affect how she deals with people and esp. regarding romantic and sexual relationships. Buffy has so many serious issues in nearly every area of her life, she needs therapy to work thru them. The mistake that "anyone of us can make", Buffy makes because of her emotional issues. I think she could use help figuring out alot of her own hangups and fears.

Yep, agreeing to all of that. My post above was more in response to what buffyfanforever said, which I thought maybe simplified the situation to the point where it made it seem like a poorly judged one night stand was a call for therapy. I absolutely agree that many of the decisions Buffy makes are linked to her larger emontional problems. In fact I'd say that may well be true for the mistakes most of us make in our relationships.

[koven]

buffyfanforever said:

yes but Buffy wasn't in love with parker satsu's in love with Buffy

True enough, I'd definitely agree that Satsu's feelings for Buffy are much stronger than what Buffy felt for Parker, and there are other differences between the two situations as well, but I think the basic idea that there are many times in life where one person wants more out of a relationship than the other still holds true.

EDIT: Oops, sorry about the double postage...

[Emmie]

hey rowan hawthorne! i'm impressed with your response, very well thought out...sorry the thread ran away from ya

i think when i was reading those buffy lines like "best hair ever", i was thinking from a platonic girl perspective where i've told friends "you look gorgeous" or "that outfits hot". you're right there are indicators of some physical attraction, the "you smell good" comment being perhaps the most convincing. i think my problem is that she didn't do anything obvious to show interest or acknowledge interest, they just ended up in bed for imo unhealthy reasons. i'm waiting for the emotional fall-out.

[Rachster]

koven said:

emmie said:

I'm not saying Buffy having sex with Satsu means she needs therapy. But that she clearly has emotional issues and problems with reaching out to people, issues she's acknowledged before. Her having sex with Satsu is an example how she reaches out, imo, in not the most healthy manner. I think it was a mistake b/c she's not moving forward. These issues affect how she deals with people and esp. regarding romantic and sexual relationships. Buffy has so many serious issues in nearly every area of her life, she needs therapy to work thru them. The mistake that "anyone of us can make", Buffy makes because of her emotional issues. I think she could use help figuring out alot of her own hangups and fears.

Yep, agreeing to all of that. My post above was more in response to what buffyfanforever said, which I thought maybe simplified the situation to the point where it made it seem like a poorly judged one night stand was a call for therapy. I absolutely agree that many of the decisions Buffy makes are linked to her larger emontional problems. In fact I'd say that may well be true for the mistakes most of us make in our relationships.

yeah i agree to i didnt mean to make it sound simplified i was just saying that i feel for satsu she got pulled in to buffys emotional issues that i think buffy she needs to work out before she can ever really have a propper relationship with anyone

[Emmie]

koven said:

I absolutely agree that many of the decisions Buffy makes are linked to her larger emontional problems. In fact I'd say that may well be true for the mistakes most of us make in our relationships.

Very true! I only try to be emotionally enlightened when criticizing the buffyverse

[Rowan Hawthorn]

emmie said:

hey rowan hawthorne! i'm impressed with your response, very well thought out...sorry the thread ran away from ya

Heh. Oh, well - I don't watch much TV anymore, but I got interested in a movie and let it sidetrack me... and, of course, that last sentence should have read: "Okay, if Buffy didn't feel less lonely before, she's certainly going to after this"

emmie said:

i think when i was reading those buffy lines like "best hair ever", i was thinking from a platonic girl perspective where i've told friends "you look gorgeous" or "that outfits hot". you're right there are indicators of some physical attraction, the "you smell good" comment being perhaps the most convincing. i think my problem is that she didn't do anything obvious to show interest or acknowledge interest, they just ended up in bed for imo unhealthy reasons. i'm waiting for the emotional fall-out.

OH, yeah. And not just Buffy's and Satsu's...

[koven]

emmie said:

Very true! I only try to be emotionally enlightened when criticizing the buffyverse

Hehe, I learned a long time ago that trying to be enlightened about any of my emotions, let alone anyone else's, was way too difficult. Possibly the reason why I'm now very good at dealing with bad relationship decisions... ;D

[Rachster]

everyones ignoring me lol i think satsu will call Buffy out on it well at least i hope so i wish Buffy could just have a happy normal relationship for once

[koven]

emmie said:

Very interesting point. She gets to feel good for the night without endangering her emotional fortress of solitude.

That's pretty much how I see it. Satsu and Xander were pretty much the only available options that Buffy had, as far as a sexual partner was concerned. With both there was the possibility of hurt feelings but with Satsu it was a one way street. With Xander there was the chance she may develop feelings, even fall in love again. With Satsu, it was just sex.

[Emmie]

koven said:

I'd say that there aren't many better ways of avoiding falling in love after sex than doing it with a someone of a gender you have absolutely no interest in.

Very interesting point. She gets to feel good for the night without endangering her emotional fortress of solitude. I'm starting to feel really bad for Satsu and I don't want her to only be an object of pity. I hope she calls Buffy out on what she did, if only for her own self-worth.


*sorry guys was having technical difficulties on my end