Wolves At The Gate: Buffy and Satsu

[kershmuckit]

kingofcretins said:

Satsu hasn't been in every issue. She didn't appear in any issue of "No Future For You", or in "Anywhere But Here". She only appears in "The Chain" in one panel with the rest of Alpha Team.

So she's been an actual *character* in six of the twelve issues so far.

Ah my bad. I always forget about faith's arc goodness knows why; i guess i just didn't like it that much.

[Slayer489]

I checked the script and it seems like they were about to before Xander interrupted. I don't think they actually did.

[Rebecca]

dane5by5 said:

xmadxscientistx said:

Another doubt I have... How do we know a kiss of true love is really what broke the spell? Which character did we get the info from, Willow?

I'm feeling skeptical after thinking about this for a while... Don't get me wrong, I'm still enthusiastic, but what if all is not what it seems? What if Satsu was *distracting* Buffy from the coming invasion? What if the kiss, the sex, the lip gloss... What if it was all a trick? I'm not saying it's likely, I'm just starting to suspect...

That's a really good theory. I like that theory. It would make things very "Buffy" in the sense it complicates everything. Satsu loves Buffy but betrays her. Buffy being used again but for a different reason. It also would satisfy me as a fan with that being the payoff for the betrayal of the "closest and most unexpected". I doubt Buffy would expect someone who loves her and she has shared a bed with to turn around and betray her.

Thinking about it, that actually makes a little bit of sense. Because Buffy effectually used Satsu, perhaps that broke her heart and Satsu (given the op) betrays Buffy.

[Lukee]

Cant believe some people are commenting about Buffy having about 5 sexual partners.. shes like 23-24 i know more 20year olds who have had more then 5. Its not odd or strange really.

I really want Satsu to be some one who betrays Buffy. I wanted her to be working for Twilight in ABS but meh didn't go that way.
I like dane5by5 idea of Buffy effectually used Satsu that really effected Satasu breaking her heart making her betray Buffy.


I agree we haven't seen enough of Satsu to say if shes really good for Buffy. I saw nothing wrong with Buffy and Riley and if Buffy had gotten theres in time i bet they would have been together for longer. Riley was a good guy for her. As was Angel but a relationship with a vampire would work with the number of reasons.

Also RJ could have had buttons and not a zip

[Enisy]

I somehow doubt Joss will be killing off another homosexual character, or making her evil, or anything like that, after the outcry about Tara's death. I agree with him that it would have been more disrespectful than anything to not kill Tara because she was a lesbian, but at the same time, he should probably avoid making it into a pattern, especially with the fandom being as fragile as it is now.

[Rebecca]

enisy said:

I somehow doubt Joss will be killing off another homosexual character, or making her evil, or anything like that, after the outcry about Tara's death. I agree that it would have been disrespectful to give Tara "special treatment" because she was homosexual, but he'd probably want to avoid making it into a pattern, especially with the fandom being as fragile as it is now.

I don't see anything to do with Tara for Joss to make Satsu the betrayer. They are in *completely* different contexts within the story, despite their mutual sexual preference.

Now for general patterns, I would see an issue for killing Satsu off. There seems to be a stereotype that lesbians are always killed off. Joss won't make that mistake again.

[El Diablo Robotico]

I read 2 or 3 pages of this thread and got bored (and more than a little angry at what sometimes seemed like a little too much vitriol), so if any or all of this has already been said, I apologize in advance.

Anyway, my opinion is that this is really two separate questions: good/bad move on Joss's and Drew's part, and good/bad move on Buffy's part. I vote great move by Joss/Drew, very shaky move by Buffy. But questionable choices by the characters always make for more interesting stories.

Tho I like the decision on the part of the writers, I completely respect the people who are unhappy with it, and don't begrudge them their right to complain about it. But haven't there been plenty of twists and turns in the story over the years that we didn't like? Angel turning evil, Oz leaving, the introduction of Dawn, Buffy sleeping with Spike, Spike trying to rape her, Spike getting a soul, Tara being killed... and on and on. But how much fun would it be if the writers had only given us the happy stories that we wanted, instead of the sadder, more complex, often darker turns that, in most cases, were either more emotionally satisfying, or led into stories that were more emotionally satisfying. Plot twists like this aren't things everyone has to like, or agree on, but I hope they'll continue to happen, because then what would we have to talk about?

There's only been two things I've read--more than once--that've annoyed me, because I think they're just flat-out wrong :

- 1) "This is completely out-of-character for Buffy; she's never been interested in girls before." You want an example of OOC, take a look at S1-3 Amy, compared to the similar-looking character who's gone by that name in S6-8. Now that's out of character. OOC for Buffy would be if a girl had come onto her sometime in the past, and she'd been all, "Eww! Gross!", and then ends up in bed with one several years later. She's never gone after another girl before, and I don't argue for a second that given the option she'd certainly prefer a guy, but part of the point with this is that she's in a situation where male companionship is non-existent, she's lonely, and that drove her to make an ill-advised decision.

- 2) "There's a better chance that Willy the Snitch would be struck by lightning three times while holding two winning lottery tickets than for so many members of such a small group of family/friends to turn out to be gay/bi." Here's a list of what would probably be considered all the main characters in the seven years of the show: Andrew, Angel, Anya, Buffy, Cordelia, Dawn, Faith, Giles, Joyce, Oz, Riley, Spike, Tara, Xander, and Willow. How many of those do we know for a fact have slept with someone of the same sex? 3. Buffy, Willow, and Tara (and possibly Spike and Angel; 5). And Tara wasn't someone who was a member of the group and then, "Gosh, she's gay!" She was brought into[/u] the group by virtue of being Willow's love interest. But even leaving her in the equation, that's 3 (possibly 5) out of 15. Isn't that probably close to the percentage of gay/bi people in society at large? Certainly 20% is a fair guess at the amount of the population who've at least had one same-sex encounter in their lives, isn't it?

I'm trusting that Joss and Drew know where they're going with this. Once it's played out, I may re-evaluate and change my opinion on it, but for now, it's got my support.

[xmadxscientistx]

vampiredust said:

Cant believe some people are commenting about Buffy having about 5 sexual partners.. shes like 23-24 i know more 20year olds who have had more then 5. Its not odd or strange really.

I'm sorry if my opinion that 5 is too many offended you. The reason I have a problem with it is that one in four teenage girls has an STD according to a recent study, and I'm wary of casual sex. It seems like poor judgment. I don't think it's unusual, I'm 21 myself and most of the people I know have had around that many if not more.

I know the "Buffy is a role model for teenagers" argument is tired. My stance is my own and not Buffy's. The sort of character Buffy is based on and myself have nothing but gender in common. Again let me stress I'm not casting any moral judgment here, I guess I just commented on the health aspect of it because of the decisions I've seen people around me make and the way those choices have affected them. I've known two people who've had HPV, one of them can't have children now. I've heard a lot of horror stories about people around me who've been diagnosed with some horrible diseases that they got from people who they cared about very much and some who don't remember who they got them from. People are dying all over the world of AIDS for no crime greater than human affection.

I don't mean to scare anybody, I just thought I'd clarify. I don't have some moral problem with it, I don't think any body's immortal soul is damaged by it, I just think we live in a dangerous world.

And yeah, Buffy is a fictional character, and if you really wanted to you could find all kinds of things wrong with the show. Necrophilia, murder, theft. I'm not trying to make some crazy argument that the show teaches people to do things that are wrong. I just don't think I'm going to go, "Wow, this is a great new pairing!" when we didn't even get to see Buffy go on a date with this person and she's acting like a rash teenager.

[kershmuckit]

Just read an article on Whedonesque, where the dark horse guys confirmed willow is going to be 'jealous and inquisitive' LOL. Honestly, i think this going to be the hightlight of the next issue.

[richieshag89]

xmadxscientistx said:

I'm sorry if my opinion that 5 is too many offended you. The reason I have a problem with it is that one in four teenage girls has an STD according to a recent study, and I'm wary of casual sex. It seems like poor judgment. I don't think it's unusual, I'm 21 myself and most of the people I know have had around that many if not more.

two of the guys shes slept with were dead- no stds there, one was in the military- he would have known if he was infected, one is a slayer

the only real threat to std was with parker, and im sure they used a condom, because hes a player and wouldve wanted to save his own as if nothing else

shes a smart girl, not a hooker

[Emmie]

I fell on the bad side of the decision because I feel there is an undeniable inequality in position btn Buffy and Satsu, both emotionally and in power, both of which are leaving Satsu incredibly vulnerable. Since Joss has said this is a one time deal, I don't have a lot of faith in how Buffy is going to handle the emotional fall-out considering her nonstellar relationship history.

It's a bad decision b/c I see Satsu getting hurt. I can even see how this came about in Joss' mind. Character in pain = good drama. Buffy conflicted on moral and personal issues = yay theme! So it works from a storytelling standpoint, but I don't like where this character development is going.

I do feel the jumping into bed with Satsu was OOC for Buffy esp. in terms of how fast it happened. Instead of showing us the afterglow scene, why couldn't there have been a moment where Satsu impulsively kisses her and then walks off, leaving Buffy just standing there with a shocked expression on her face while she touches her lips?

The writing didn't even try to sell the romantic angle to us, they tossed us in the deep end with no warning. Yes, Buffy and Satsu were getting closer but it didn't greatly differentiate from a platonic friendship developing for Buffy.

So good or bad? I'm leaning toward bad.

[ferrygirl]

Hi guys! First post here.
I have to say that when I read the New-York Times article, I was really stunned. Damn, Buffy sleeping with Satsu? Wow! I really didn't expect that. But it is one of the things Joss Whedon is good at, huh? Surprising people. I'm really, really lookin' forward to seeing what's gonna happen next. Oh I can't wait!

[buffysmglover]

ferrygirl said:

Hi guys! First post here.
I have to say that when I read the New-York Times article, I was really stunned. Damn, Buffy sleeping with Satsu? Wow! I really didn't expect that. But it is one of the things Joss Whedon is good at, huh? Surprising people. I'm really, really lookin' forward to seeing what's gonna happen next. Oh I can't wait!

Welcome to the forum!

[El Diablo Robotico]

emmie said:

I do feel the jumping into bed with Satsu was OOC for Buffy esp. in terms of how fast it happened ... The writing didn't even try to sell the romantic angle to us, they tossed us in the deep end with no warning.

I think that was sort of the point: jump straight to it, then let the story go from there. I have a feeling they might tell this particular story similar to the way "Angel: ATF" is going--by telling it on one hand going forward, while at the same time working backward and filling in details, little by little. In this case, Buffy and Satsu will probably try to explain to other characters what happened, how it happened, and in that way we'll learn more about what led up to it...

[Emmie]

diablorobotico said:

emmie said:

I do feel the jumping into bed with Satsu was OOC for Buffy esp. in terms of how fast it happened ... The writing didn't even try to sell the romantic angle to us, they tossed us in the deep end with no warning.

I think that was sort of the point: jump straight to it, then let the story go from there. I have a feeling they might tell this particular story similar to the way "Angel: ATF" is going--by telling it on one hand going forward, while at the same time working backward and filling in details, little by little. In this case, Buffy and Satsu will probably try to explain to other characters what happened, how it happened, and in that way we'll learn more about what led up to it...

I think you're right, diablo, that's the writing technique they're using in order to keep the story moving forward in this medium. It still doesn't stop me from wanting a more chronological build-up when it comes to character-developing events like buffy sleeping with a woman - it felt really unexpectedly sensational. I'm still adjusting to the buffyverse being continued in comic form, but that's my issue

[Rowan Hawthorn]

What amazes me is that, once upon a time, that was what people appreciated about the Buffyverse: Joss & company didn't just lead us by the hand through every single little detail; as often as not, they tossed the viewer into the deep end of the pool and gradually filled in the details. Now, I don't know, it seems as if people expect the same kind of bland spoon-fed storytelling that you can get anywhere else. Personally, I like having to piece things together; it just makes it that much more satisfying when the "Oh, YEAH!" moment hits. And I'm pretty sure that we'll be getting some of those details when Willow & Buffy get down to it - which ought to be fun.

[koven]

xmadxscientistx said:

vampiredust said:

Cant believe some people are commenting about Buffy having about 5 sexual partners.. shes like 23-24 i know more 20year olds who have had more then 5. Its not odd or strange really.

I'm sorry if my opinion that 5 is too many offended you. The reason I have a problem with it is that one in four teenage girls has an STD according to a recent study, and I'm wary of casual sex. It seems like poor judgment. I don't think it's unusual, I'm 21 myself and most of the people I know have had around that many if not more.

Really hope that 5 sexual partners by 23-24 doesn't offend you. Pretty sure I'd had three times that many, by Buffy's current age.

Not saying this to brag or look impressive, by the way. I don't think that the amount of people a person chooses to sleep with should be considered a particularly important part of who they are, either way. I'm saying this to make the point that sleeping with a lot of different people, casually or not, is not what leads to STDs. Stupidity and carelessness leads to STDs.

I admit, I'm probably a lot more careful than most due to my extreme fear of ever fathering a child. Wouldn't want that to happen. Even so, over the years I have had a good number of different girls in my life and I've managed to avoid any problems. Buffy has been with 5 different people in her life and only one of them could be considered a stupid move, although just because Parker was a total git to Buffy doesn't mean he was an idiot when it came to safe sex.

As far as the poll goes, I went with it being a good thing, mainly because I can't totally justify it being a bad thing. Will feelings be hurt along the way? Probably. Is Buffy the first person to go to bed with somebody who feels a lot more for her than she feels for them? Hardly.

As for "OOC", don't know about the rest of you but my personal character is in a constant state of change. I'm not making the same decisions I would have made ten years ago. Hell, maybe not a year ago. Suggesting that this is out of character for Buffy is like saying that she is expected to be the exact same person throughout her entire life. I was under the impression that Joss wrote characters that grew.

[Enisy]

Is this growth or regression, though? If she's using Satsu like she used Spike, as Scott Allie indicated in his interview, then it's gotta be regression, since we were all under the impression she had learned something from those mistakes ("The last guy I was with, it got really... I behaved like a monster, treated him like...")

[koven]

enisy said:

Is this growth or regression, though? If she's using Satsu like she used Spike, as Scott Allie indicated in his interview, then it's gotta be regression, since we were all under the impression she had learned something from those mistakes ("The last guy I was with, it got really... I behaved like a monster, treated him like...")

I was using grow in the sense of change, rather than in the sense of becoming a better person. An individual can "grow" in negative ways as well as positive ones. Growth of character doesn't have to be a good thing. Willow's growth over the seasons was certainly not towards the good, to begin with, but she still grew as a person.

Either way, I don't see this as regression for Buffy. We all like to think we learn from mistakes but I, for one, know that I'm more than capable of making them again, under different circumstances. Buffy is no different.

[Emmie]

rowanhawthorn said:

What amazes me is that, once upon a time, that was what people appreciated about the Buffyverse: Joss & company didn't just lead us by the hand through every single little detail; as often as not, they tossed the viewer into the deep end of the pool and gradually filled in the details.

i love putting it together too, i'd just have liked some romantic stuff leading up to it, so i could be excited when they ended up in bed and not just shocked. i can't think of another relationship in BUFFY where the couple ended up in bed and it surprised me in how it happened, there was some kind of romantic build-up or explanation (e.g. i'm thinking of Anya and Spike sleeping together to comfort eachother). I'm saying i think the story was set up this way to straight-up SHOCK readers. Come on, we go from Buffy telling Satsu why being in a relationship with her is a bad idea in ABS to wham - sweaty, after party in WatG1. Maybe the story is better told this way, but I feel like its being dealt with a bit cheaply.

Even Buffy kissed Spike a couple of times before they had sex. There was some sexual build-up on both sides. With Buffy and Satsu, I felt like only Satsu's desire was clearly expressed and not Buffy's - is there a moment someone can point to that showed Buffy was into Satsu sexually?

I'm not asking for my hand to be held thru every little detail, been a fan for over 10 yrs and I know thats not how it works, but a little indication of Buffy's interest would have made the scene more explicable and convincing for me. Considering how much Joss loves to foreshadow future happenings, you'd think there would have been some indication from Buffy. Maybe I missed it, but you/anyone feel free to tell me.