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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 2, 2008 18:52:36 GMT -5
Watching season 7 again, I started to think about the fear of that evil that's just above you, all-knowing and all-powerful. That was the First's vibe throughout the season. Interesting I think, that Buffy has never had to deal at all with W+H, because it seems to be the biggest force of evil on the planet (I think much bigger than the first). I think it's an odd thought, but reflecting on it, Angel has been dealing with a much larger foe and for a long time. Afterall, W+H are a huge factor in the defeat of the First, as they supplied the amulet that did most of the work hehe. It's wierd to think about Wolfram and Hart in terms of Buffy's run, as they seemed to step in when a real threat to them presented itself. They were probably worried it would interfere with their own long planned apocalypse. It adds a nice dark undertone to the run of both shows.
Anyway... over to you...
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commandercool
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
DON'T PANIC![Mo0:37]
Posts: 744
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Post by commandercool on Jan 3, 2008 12:12:17 GMT -5
Wolfram and Hart wouldn't let the First bring them coffee. It's a ghost. Real scary. Wolfram and Hart probably owns a million ghosts. Still, the First actually does things, while Wolfram and Hart pretty much just hides in a nother dimension laughing and having a scary name. Realistically, they didn't accomplish anything until Angel forced them to.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 3, 2008 13:47:53 GMT -5
Quite eerie though isn't it? They don't have to do anything, they're just that powerful.
Funny thought... Maybe the amulet was W+H getting back at the first for trying to kill Angel off in Buffy season 3 hehe
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Lukee
Ensouled Vampire
Brilliant is my middle name tbf[Mo0:14]
Posts: 1,137
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Post by Lukee on Jan 3, 2008 18:31:20 GMT -5
Wasn't W&H wanting Angel dead anyway? So why would they care if the First evil tried to kill him?
I think the First is the bigger baddie i mean its because of the first that there was a W&H the first is the root of all evil. Its higher then W&H and could do worst then them too. So all in all The First Evil is way badder
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 3, 2008 18:51:22 GMT -5
W+H don't want Angel dead. He's a major player in their apocalypse.
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commandercool
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
DON'T PANIC![Mo0:37]
Posts: 744
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Post by commandercool on Jan 4, 2008 0:41:41 GMT -5
That's bull and Angel knows it. If they just killed him, they would have a much, much easier time getting things done.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 4, 2008 19:50:12 GMT -5
A hokey justification for Angel's continued survival over the show's run it may be, but in terms of the show itself, Wolfram & Hart clearly think he''s important. Personally I can't wait to find out just what part he plays, if it is ever revealed that is.
What are the chances of W+H having something to do with the state of the world by the time Fray happens? I've not read it myself, but I know the vague story.
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Lukee
Ensouled Vampire
Brilliant is my middle name tbf[Mo0:14]
Posts: 1,137
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Post by Lukee on Jan 4, 2008 19:58:23 GMT -5
W+H don't want Angel dead. He's a major player in their apocalypse. Im a bit rusty on Angel but did they or did they not at some point try to kill him in the earlier seasons?
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 4, 2008 20:20:32 GMT -5
W+H don't want Angel dead. He's a major player in their apocalypse. Im a bit rusty on Angel but did they or did they not at some point try to kill him in the earlier seasons? Not that I can remember no. Staff like Lindsey and Lilah weren't authorised to have Angel killed but out of grudges they tried anyway however.
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Post by buffysmglover on Jan 4, 2008 20:41:19 GMT -5
Wolfie rams the heart with a stake first.
Okay, stupidest thing I've ever said in a post. Yet.
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eternalspikefan
Novice Witch
I Can Feel It Buffy...My Soul![Mo0:37]
Posts: 243
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Post by eternalspikefan on Mar 20, 2008 9:37:08 GMT -5
Wolfram and Hart I think!
They just seemed more menacing and as though they actually could cause serious damage whereas The First was kinda just a big ghost. Fair enough Season 7 of Buffy showed it in a scarier light but yeah I still thik Wolfram and Hart could cause more trouble!
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Rachster
Bad Ass Wicca
♥Koala Girl♥
Rachster previousily know as buffyfanforever. :][Mo0:34]
Posts: 2,344
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Post by Rachster on Mar 20, 2008 9:51:53 GMT -5
i think wolfram&hart there like the evil that runs evil
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Post by hunter233 on Mar 20, 2008 16:48:15 GMT -5
I'm gonna have to go with W&H, but unlike some others I'm not going to simply dismiss one side or the other.
In my opinion, they're both terrifying villains, embodying the horrible idea that evil is omnipresent, and can never be fully defeated. The First was not "just a ghost." It was far more. It was evil itself. It could manipulate what little bits of darkness each person had in their hearts to control them. It's nothing short of the elemental, primal force behind evil. It's kind of like the mother of every single baddie we've ever seen. Of course, not everyone always listens to their mother...
Enter W&H, savior of mankind. Yes, you read that right. They gave Angel that amulet, and told him where to use it. True, they were hoping to trap him in it, but they knew full well in the process that they would be foiling the First's plans. Cause in the end, Buffy's cute little army hardly did anything. I, personally, like to believe that the amulet had something to do with the balance of good and evil in the world, since it had been talked about so much in S7, and that balance had to tip toward good before the amulet would do its thing. That's why when they first went down Spike didn't feel a thing from it. I like to believe this simply because without it, Buffy and her army played no role whatsoever. Regardless, the largest role played was inarguably by the amulet. And yeah, Spike wore it, but he had no clue about anything it would do. It was W&H. W&H is the big hero of Buffy S7. W&H saved the world.
So... why? It's Wolfram and freaking Hart! Why save the world? Because the First's idea of the apocalypse was not theirs. The First wanted to overrun the world with monsters and become flesh, thus becoming what we can assume to be the biggest, baddest being ever to walk the earth, scarier even than the Old Ones. If we recall Illyria's comments, the Wolf, the Ram, and the Hart were nothing to beings like her, "barely higher than vampires." W&H are not that powerful on their own, and in the world the First had envisioned, they'd be pretty low on the food chain. Their power comes from humanity. This is why they rose from nothing to the most powerful evil on earth as mankind rose to the dominant species. Their power lies in their ability to manipulate humanity, bringing out and nurturing that wonderful talent they have for evil. They want mankind around. And that's why they stopped the First and saved the world. Thematically, it demonstrates the shift in the way the world works. Evil isn't about something primal anymore, it's about corruption, man's inhumanity to man. This is why a trio of beings that are naturally weaker than the First could defeat it so soundly. In the big war between the major evils of the world, the corrupter wins. This world doesn't belong to primal beings like the First and Illyria anymore. It belongs to man, and those who can control man.
So why do I think that W&H is the badder big bad? I mean, aside from the fact that they won? Because everyone knows that the villain who is evil for the sake of being evil is never as fun as the villain who manipulates and corrupts people into that evil. Flawed characters are more fun.
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balesthebloody
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Angel's gettin' some! Good on you mate!"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 733
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Post by balesthebloody on Mar 20, 2008 16:51:07 GMT -5
Wolfram & Hart by far!
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Ethros
Novice Witch
I beat the bad guys[Mo0:0]
Posts: 291
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Post by Ethros on Mar 20, 2008 17:38:44 GMT -5
The Wolf, Ram and Hart
As Buffy says, the First Evil should instead be called "The Taunter" as it can't really do much, being incorporeal and all The Senior Partners however, can do pretty much anything if they want!
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artiswar
Novice Witch
Cool... what's a rogue demon??[Mo0:0]
Posts: 260
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Post by artiswar on Mar 20, 2008 19:06:57 GMT -5
Okay, the wolf the ram and the heart own The First. In terms of power of manipulation they are simply way more effective at making their enemies question their morals. The first is a pushover.
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Post by Wyndam on Mar 20, 2008 19:09:14 GMT -5
Definitely Wolfram and Hart.
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Post by hunter233 on Mar 20, 2008 21:26:34 GMT -5
The Wolf, Ram and Hart As Buffy says, the First Evil should instead be called "The Taunter" as it can't really do much, being incorporeal and all The Senior Partners however, can do pretty much anything if they want! Ummm... technically, W&H themselves aren't corporeal either, at least not in this dimension. Much like the First, they can only operate on this dimension through minions and avatars (and THEIR avatar, unlike the Firsts, only comes once every 75 years or something like that). That's why they needed the Circle of the Black Thorn. They're actually only "The Taunter" as well. Or, I guess, "The Taunters." The only difference is they're better at manipulating humanity, probably simply as a result of having spent much more time at it. The First seems to just take the evil that's already there, which is, in a way, a part of it, and then amplify it. W&H, on the other hand, are pros at fostering evil, basically creating it out of the smallest window, manipulating it for a larger purpose, and even at manipulating good for their own purposes. I don't think that's something The First could even understand. Really, the First and W&H are nearly alike in their abilities, and the rules they operate by. In truth, in terms of simple power and abilities, the First is probably way stronger, being a force of nature that was created long before W&H, and is actually a part of WHAT created W&H. The difference, and why W&H wins, is in their natures. The First is the embodiment of evil. Thus holds sway only over those that are evil. Those who have chosen good are beyond its reach (see its ineffectual attempts at getting Andrew back to its side). Despite all its speechmaking about "There's no right and wrong, only power," it doesn't even hold true to these ideals. It's very goal is to have the evil in the world outweigh the good so it can become corporeal. When the First is involved, it inevitably comes down to a diametric battle between good and evil. W&H, on the other hand, are manipulators, not an embodiment of an ideal. Therefore they aren't, by their nature, forced to adhere so strongly to an ideal. Battles with them don't break down into good and evil. They are masters of the shades of grey. Rewarding Team Angel for "ending world peace." Saving the world. Letting Angel and Co fight evil more effectively than ever before... as long as their willing to do teensy wrongs to keep business running. Even if you make the choice to be a good guy, you're not safe, they can still make you unsure of whether you're doing the right thing. Thus, they are far more insidious, and far more dangerous.
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lorneisaboltsfan
Common Vampire
Start with the other Karaoke bars?If you're not too busy killing lawyers and setting girls on fire.[
Posts: 78
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Post by lorneisaboltsfan on Mar 20, 2008 21:33:20 GMT -5
Wolfram and Hart, because they've proven they can affect the world a lot more than The First can. The First was beaten and probably won't return for a long, long time. Wolfram and Hart, on the other hand, seem like they can't really be harmed in any way, they'll just keep at it no matter what.
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Post by dgryphon on Mar 20, 2008 21:47:47 GMT -5
One, the First was the Big Bad of one season. And that's because it's not really an active being most of the time; it's always around, but hidden.
Two, Wolfram & Hart, on the other hand, is the villain throughout all of Angel's 5 seasons. They're really the embodiment of evil (represented as lawyers, a metaphor that I know some people totally agree with). Personally, I think that W&H is the most evil of all Big Bads during Angel Season 5.
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