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Post by KingofCretins on Jul 14, 2008 14:11:07 GMT -5
I figured she was meaning more for the season arc in general than for "Time of Your Life".
I think one could start a romantic arc between them during this arc if one is planned. It just wouldn't be *physical* at this point, obviously, except for perhaps first kiss or something. My own hunch is that if Joss is going in that direction, we'll get the obligatory scene of Dawn giving Xander a ride somewhere and them dealing with awkward hand placement. That is such an innately sexual/sensual bit of comedy that you don't bother with it if you aren't trying to establish that sort of tension between them. It's arguable that the "frilly" in 8.10 was a first step in that.
My first preference is obviously Buffy/Xander, but Xander/Dawn is not a bad 'shipper consolation prize if we never get it. But I still think Joss has to address what's up with Buffy having kissy/sexy dreams about him regardless. It would be sort of annoying to tweak the Buffy/Xander folk like that as *nothing* but a first issue, we-don't-have-the-lay-of-the-land-in-Season-8, disorienting "gotcha!" moment. I can't think of a 'ship in the Buffyverse that deserves that kind of abuse less than Buffy/Xander -- it's like kicking a puppy.
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jul 14, 2008 14:18:27 GMT -5
I figured she was meaning more for the season arc in general than for "Time of Your Life". So did I. What did I say that made you think I only believed she was talking about ToYL?
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Post by Emmie on Jul 14, 2008 14:20:32 GMT -5
I just see the second stage as relating to sexuality for Dawn. Sexuality being one of the most definitive characteristics in maturation. And if Dawn is going through this stage in 'Time of Your Life', who else is eligible besides Xander? I don't necessarily see Xander locked down to be with Dawn, but who knows what happens in the third stage.
1. You grow up and accept adult responsibilities; taking care of yourself and caring for others which Dawn did in Issue 15.
2. You explore your sexuality and intimate relationships
3. ?? I'm not really sure how to define this, but I feel it relates to mature love or falling in love in a committed relationship.
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brandonr
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Post by brandonr on Jul 14, 2008 14:53:22 GMT -5
It would be sort of annoying to tweak the Buffy/Xander folk like that as *nothing* but a first issue, we-don't-have-the-lay-of-the-land-in-Season-8, disorienting "gotcha!" moment. While that particular dream in 8.01 was definitely a device used so the audience would have a "OMG" reaction that Buffy would be inviting Xander into her bed, it served a dual purpose also, in that it represented Buffy's love life at that point. She flat out said in the issue that she missed sex, so for her to fantasize about the man nearest to her at the time--Xander--is not much of a stretch at all, even if she never intended to sleep with him in the first place. And that business with her popping his head off, that was a joke obviously, but I also read into that as showing Buffy mishandles her relationships badly.
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jul 14, 2008 15:11:53 GMT -5
And that business with her popping his head off, that was a joke obviously, but I also read into that as showing Buffy mishandles her relationships badly. Or that she fears she's 'too strong' for him and thinks she needs a lover more on her own level. In which case, it's either showing, "Well, this obviously isn't going to work, so scratch that idea," or was setting up a story of her having to realize that she actually can be with someone who's not close to her when it comes to physical strength--maybe Xander, maybe not. I don't think the presence of Xander, specifically, in the dream necessarily means anything... unless you have a vested interest in wanting it to mean something, that is...
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Post by KingofCretins on Jul 14, 2008 15:44:23 GMT -5
If Buffy has such a concern, she's misplaced it badly.
I think Faith would have mentioned it if Xander was too fragile for Slayer "service", rather than all but saying "you should give him a try!" in "Bad Girls". And Buffy didn't injure Parker.
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tigerfan
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Post by tigerfan on Jul 14, 2008 16:03:15 GMT -5
I'd hate to think that Xander not being strong enough would keep Buffy from falling for him. I think the fact that Xander has survived 8 seasons, lived through 2 love interests dying, watched a friend go dark, lost an eye, watched his other best friend take a nose dive to die for the world and her sister, and lived through it all to never once think about walking away makes him pretty darn strong. If its physical strength that he needs to be qualified to be one of Buffy's love interests, it doesn't say much about her, imo. If the situation were reversed it would be a man turning a woman down because she was weaker, it would seem a little sexist.
Of course, if the dream was a set up to eventually prove that Xander could be considered more her equal, I'd be cool with that.
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Post by Emmie on Jul 14, 2008 18:02:22 GMT -5
I'm sure there are sites you can go to online if you want to see a guy gettin' it on with a horse, but that's not my thing, and I don't want to see it--or even have it implied--in my monthly "Buffy" fix... Gah...I definitely don't think there will be actual Centaur Dawn sex with anyone while she's in this form. I didn't mean to imply that's the second stage, but rather Dawn will come to accept herself as a mature sexual woman. This will probably include a life lesson about treating sex and intimacy with more respect and consideration than her impetuous and harmful fling with rocker boy, Nick. The three stages seem to lean towards a romantic angle more because it's about Dawn becoming an adult woman and a huge part of that is owning your own sexuality, not being ashamed of it. And considering Dawn's secretiveness about what happened with Nick and Kenny, I think she is feeling ashamed about how she hurt Kenny but also shy about her own nature. If Willow were told the specifics of Dawn's three-parter hex, I'm not sure if she would or could interfere. The spell seems like it needs to run its course; perhaps interference would have a severe negative backlash. Undoubtedly Willow has a lot of witchy power, but who's to say that a thricewise's spells aren't similar to a vengeance demons? Meaning only the thricewise can reverse the spell otherwise it must run it's course. Willow is not an all-powerful goddess and she does have limitations, no matter what some people seem to suggest.
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jul 14, 2008 22:02:57 GMT -5
If Buffy has such a concern, she's misplaced it badly. I think Faith would have mentioned it if Xander was too fragile for Slayer "service", rather than all but saying "you should give him a try!" in "Bad Girls". And Buffy didn't injure Parker. True enough. If taken literally, Buffy's dream would seem to be saying, "I can't have a relationship with Xander, because he couldn't survive the sex. Not on a regular basis, anyway." But Joss is usually more subtle than that, isn't he? Especially in dream sequences. What if it doesn't have anything to do with Xander or sex specifically? Suppose it's showing that subconsciously Buffy feels that anyone who has a relationship with her has to be on her level, and that a normal human just doesn't have what it takes to keep up with her (and not just in the bedroom)? And then, in true Buffy fashion, she feels guilty about that--the superiority/inferiority complex that Knox Webs diagnosed in CwDP. I don't think she denied that, but did she ever truly deal with it? Using Xander in that role in the dream was perfect in several ways. First, he's the ultimate everyman, so he symbolizes every potential "average" guy Buffy would ever consider entering into a relationship with. Second, before we were let in on the fact that it was a dream, it allowed him to comment on the previous Dawn/Xander scene and further Dawn's story a bit (thus saving space in a format where space is at a premium). Third, it gave a nice WTF? moment when she invited him in and then kissed him, making us wonder what in the world we'd missed in the time between S7 and 8. And fourth, it provided the obvious mislead for "Who kissed Buffy?", by just planting that seed. Even after the cinammon lip-gloss thing in #4, there were still people several issues later thinking Xander had been the one to kiss her ("Maybe one of the other girls borrowed Satsu's lip-gloss, and kissed Xander, and then Xander kissed Buffy" ). When it comes to the thing about Xander getting some lovin' later in the season, it might actually be really cool if it were with Faith. Not in a one-night stand sort of way, like the first time, but if he could be the guy who finally gives her that solid, steady relationship that it sounds as if she's never had--if he could be for her what Wood tried to be and failed at. Altho, given the history they both have with having trouble with commitment, that might be a recipe for disaster, but I'd be interested to see them try...
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Post by xmadxscientistx on Jul 15, 2008 16:51:59 GMT -5
Well, Bander is pleasant enough. Buffy needs a solid love interest before long. Not that Batsu wasn't solid, but clearly it didn't last. I'm kind of hoping Buffy will meet someone else or something so we can see the sort of Buffy romance we're accustomed to.
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rmw
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Post by rmw on Jul 27, 2008 20:31:53 GMT -5
I'm kind of picking up on some Xander/Dawn stuff going on. Like in issue 16, when he mentions that she looks awesome as a centaur. She's just giving him this look.
I don't know. Feels to me that something happened there.
Whatever happens though, i'll still be a reader and a fan.
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Post by xmadxscientistx on Jul 27, 2008 23:06:04 GMT -5
That'd be Harry/Ginny left field. Not bad, but kind of shocking.
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Post by SlayerLV on Jul 28, 2008 0:46:26 GMT -5
I'm kind of picking up on some Xander/Dawn stuff going on. Like in issue 16, when he mentions that she looks awesome as a centaur. She's just giving him this look. I don't know. Feels to me that something happened there. Whatever happens though, i'll still be a reader and a fan. It could happen, remember Dawn had a crush on Xander in season 5.
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rmw
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Post by rmw on Jul 28, 2008 20:29:23 GMT -5
It could happen, remember Dawn had a crush on Xander in season 5. I remember. I was actually thinking back to that after seeing that part in the issue. Kinda would like it to happen.
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sire
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Post by sire on Jul 29, 2008 7:19:23 GMT -5
ummm ew.
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Post by KingofCretins on Jul 29, 2008 11:32:08 GMT -5
Using Xander in that role in the dream was perfect in several ways. First, he's the ultimate everyman, so he symbolizes every potential "average" guy Buffy would ever consider entering into a relationship with. Second, before we were let in on the fact that it was a dream, it allowed him to comment on the previous Dawn/Xander scene and further Dawn's story a bit (thus saving space in a format where space is at a premium). Third, it gave a nice WTF? moment when she invited him in and then kissed him, making us wonder what in the world we'd missed in the time between S7 and 8. And fourth, it provided the obvious mislead for "Who kissed Buffy?", by just planting that seed. Even after the cinammon lip-gloss thing in #4, there were still people several issues later thinking Xander had been the one to kiss her ("Maybe one of the other girls borrowed Satsu's lip-gloss, and kissed Xander, and then Xander kissed Buffy" ). Count me among the many who thought it possible (although I had started to lean toward it being Rowena who had borrowed the lipgloss, since she looked the most crushed in 8.04 not to have been picked, like she had a crush on Buffy. I blame Joss, Scott, and Georges -- more should have been done in scripting and drawing the book to make it absolutely clear Satsu was in the room when Willow laid out the kiss deal. Last we'd seen her for certain she was outside fighting zombies. It's not good enough that we have one person in the room who we can all point to and say "well, I guess that must have been her". It doesn't give a fair chance to solve the mystery. I was also right there for those panels hoping that Joss really had decided to not only drop us straight into a Buffy/Xander relationship, but to drop us into one with layers and complication, since she was inviting him to bed rather uncertainly. What a great way to establish from the outset that things are a little different since Sunnydale? But alas. I do still have hopes for Buffy/Xander, since it's definitely the best relationship either of them could ever hope to find. I'm good with Xander/Faith, too, it's one of my more agreeable 'ships. You're right about "being Wood" -- in fact, Xander himself would have made more sense in that role in Season 7 than Wood did (I like DB Woodside's work in Season 7, but the character was ultimately superfluous). I don't think anything has "happened" there, that wouldn't match the dynamics at all. The "something has already happened and we missed it" energy has been coming more from Buffy and Xander, if it's there to be found -- not just what she says in the kiss, but just the open references to sex appeal and all. That said, while Buffy and Xander have had the most relationship subtext so far, there has been some between Xander and Dawn. I noticed it first in 8.10 with Xander nuzzling her giant lingerie. And, yeah, before he goes on to explain it, the bit about how 'awesome' she looks does seem pretty pointedly flirtatious. Xander and Dawn as a couple would be believable. I really have trouble figuring how he could not be with a Summers girl -- he's like genetically coded to be a perfect match for either of them.
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jul 29, 2008 14:13:32 GMT -5
That said, while Buffy and Xander have had the most relationship subtext so far, there has been some between Xander and Dawn. Why is everyone ignoring the Buffy/Willow subtext (3 out of the last 4 issues)? There's certainly been more of that than there has been Xander/Dawn, and I'd argue that there's even been more than Buffy/Xander. Or, if not more, than at least more overt. Don't get me wrong--I'm not advocating Buffy/Willow. I'd be just as opposed to that as Buffy/Xander, and for the same reasons. But it's a fact that it's been there recently. I doubt it's going anywhere, and it's probably just being played for the laugh, but it's puzzling to me how and why it's been so ignored. Maybe because it's a pairing that people just have no interest in seeing, so they've had no reason to notice it--or if they did, they've chosen to ignore it...
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tigerfan
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Post by tigerfan on Jul 29, 2008 16:20:36 GMT -5
I didn't really see Xander's comments as a hint to something more. I just saw it as him stating a fact, because she does look awesome, you know, for a horse. lol I would think the same thing if Willow or Buffy had said it. And personally, I'm not into the idea of Dawn/Xander yet because he's always felt like a big brother to her to me. And I feel a bit hypocritical for saying that because I hate it when people use that excuse for Buffy/Xander. But I believe Sarah and Nick played it that way, especially in season 7 in the beginning when they were hoping Joss would go the BX route and Joss really considered it, hence the parental vibe at the beginning, but decided against it in the end. I don't think Nick or Sarah ever played Buffy and Xander as a brotherly/sisterly relationship. Plus, if he gets with Dawn that will seriously dampen my BX dream, just for the little thing called the Girl Code. You don't go out with your sister's ex or former lover, it be kinda icky if Xander got with the little sis and big sis. To me it would, at least, who is speaking as a girl with an older sister, so I could be a little biased. I actually considered that when Buffy/Satsu revealed happened. I thought well, the B/W door just swung wide open. But Joss has said that Buffy isn't gay. And I don't know if Willow would be so open minded to an experimental fling with one of her BFFs. Of course, who knows, it could happen. There may be a drunken night somewhere or some other explanation for it. I do agree its on the table more than it has ever been in the past.
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jul 29, 2008 22:26:42 GMT -5
I actually considered that when Buffy/Satsu revealed happened. I thought well, the B/W door just swung wide open. But Joss has said that Buffy isn't gay. The key word there being "gay". Meaning that she hasn't decided she doesn't like guys anymore. Doesn't mean that what happened with Satsu can't happen with another girl at some point down the road. The conversation Willow had with Satsu where she asked what Buffy's like in the sack, I didn't take very seriously. I didn't think Willow really wanted to know--she was just looking to shock Satsu, get her to laugh, cheer her up. The talk between Willow and Buffy in #15 is where things got weird, tho. Willow saying "I never wanted to sleep with you, anyway"--come on, that's the thing you say when you mean the exact opposite! And Buffy, in this past issue, saying "My Will...", which Kennedy rightfully jumped all over her for, because that was... odd. :unsure: Like I said, I don't think anything's going to happen between them, but I wouldn't completely rule it out, and it's gotten obvious enough now where I think you have to acknowledge that there's something there (what that "something" is, well... *shrug* ). Certainly we do if we're going to speculate on whether or not that one comment from Xander to Dawn is leading to anything, because there's more Buffy/Willow stuff right now than there is Xander/Dawn...
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faith0tvs
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Post by faith0tvs on Jul 30, 2008 5:36:51 GMT -5
personally i think that they tease us as far as the Buffy/Willow issue is concerned, you know with various hints in the last issue of wolves at the gate and now with the first part of time of your life, i don't think that this is going to happen even though i do believe that at some point during her adolescent Will was infatuated with Buffster
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