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Post by Rebecca on Jan 11, 2009 15:26:02 GMT -5
I hate the guns = bad theme. I'm all for gun control in *real* life, but it doesn't make sense in Buffy. They can use rocket launchers and cross bows, but for some reason, guns aren't moral. Yeah. Okay. Having taken a class on criminology, guns are 5 times more deadly than any stabbing weapon, which more often injures and doesn't kill. So, one could argue that they are more "evil". Also, the rocket launcher was used once for the Judge, taking a lot of effort to get, hardly making precident. |
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Post by wenxina on Jan 11, 2009 15:30:16 GMT -5
It did make one more appearance, in "Him"... but it was not put to any use other than for laughs. Hmmm... first time a gun analogue was used as a joke. And even then, that was an episode where all the women fell under the thrall of a football jacket, a masculine piece of clothing.
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Post by Rebecca on Jan 11, 2009 15:35:18 GMT -5
It did make one more appearance, in "Him"... but it was not put to any use other than for laughs. Hmmm... first time a gun analogue was used as a joke. And even then, that was an episode where all the women fell under the thrall of a football jacket, a masculine piece of clothing. OMG that's right! I cannot believe I forgot that! But to the point, it was considered evil in that ep... Buffy was under the influence of the "evil" jacket (lolz), and everyone under that influence committed evil acts (attempted murder, attempt to physically alter the poor boy into a girl, bank robbery, and attempted suicide). |
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Post by Wyndam on Jan 11, 2009 16:11:01 GMT -5
Wesley used guns because he doesn't have the strength to fight as well as a Slayer, Vampire, or even Gunn in hand to hand combat. Sure by Season 3 he was able to hold his own in a fight, but firearms enabled him to keep enemies at a distance, which was smart for him. I understand why Buffy would be against guns, because even though they are powerful, they still take quite a lot of skill to use properly.
A stray bullet can do a lot more damage than a stray crossbow bolt can, and guns are not even very effective against a Slayer's main enemy (the vampire). So I understand why Buffy would prohibit the use of guns.
Wesley doesn't have to adhere to that philosophy though, as he was shown to be quite capable with firearms as far back as Season 1 of Angel. Wesley didn't use firearms that often, so it is hard to say whether or not he really needed them or anything, but in the situations he did use them, he used them effectively enough. In Season 4 and 5, Wesley started carrying at least a pistol with him at all times, which is understandable. It was almost used as a quick fix whenever something bad happened and he needed a tool to defend himself (such as when he killed Skip in Season 4). He also started dealing with a few shady humans as well in Season 4 and 5, who supplied him with his collapsable arm sword and such, so guns were a more practical safety measure than swords and crossbows for those situations.
I understand that in Buffy's world, guns are a big no no. An untrained, young Slayer could do some serious damage with one, and they aren't even needed in their daily slaying.
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Post by Emmie on Jan 11, 2009 16:33:09 GMT -5
I hate the guns = bad theme. I'm all for gun control in *real* life, but it doesn't make sense in Buffy. They can use rocket launchers and cross bows, but for some reason, guns aren't moral. Yeah. Okay. Guns = bad, specifically hand guns because they are weapons for hunting people. For a Slayer - no, guns aren't necessary and neither are they ideal. Does Simone need a gun? Not so much. The only times that Slayers have been outgunned in a fight is when they're attacked by a human. Demons don't use guns and guns aren't ideal in slaying demons. The "guns aren't moral" stance resides in a realistic approach as well as the meta theme of gun control. Realistically, the only time a slayer uses a handgun it means she's doing it for personal and corrupt reasons. It's not about slaying vampires and demons - how could it be? Guns don't kill demons 99% of the time and they never kill vampires. Rocket launchers kill *everything* so it's not really a comparison to a handgun. Handguns are ideal for accurately attacking a weaker being in a specific area - i.e. for killing people. Handguns don't make sense in fighting demons. I'm not going to get into a political debate here (though I imagine I'm appearing as pro-gun control here, which in a sense I am because any idiot walking around shouldn't be able to carry an semi-automatic). The point is that slayers don't need guns to fight a mystical battle. Guns aren't ideal and so when they are used, it points to an underlying problem with the slayer's understanding of her mission. Interesting that you are connecting the guns = bad to ats as well. I find a lot of themes don't cross over, including the gun one. Granted, Angel never really needed to use guns, but didn't Wesley and *ahem* Gunn use guns at some point? I know Darla did, but she was evil, lol. I guess I just don't remember gun use = bad as a theme in ATS. The reason my mind carried it over was because Faith used a gun in AtS season 1 during Five by Five to shoot Angel. It's the only other time I can think of where a slayer besides Simone has packed a handgun. And in fighting demons, most of the players on AtS didn't carry guns. Only Wesley and Lilah come to mind. The theme doesn't necessarily carry over, but the point that guns aren't the ideal weapon against demons does. The rules of the 'verse carry over even if the message doesn't. And I'm not really focusing on the message so much as the impracticality of a Slayer using a gun. It being impractical for fighting demons leads naturally to presuming that a slayer with a gun is up to no good. On AtS, Wesley's shotgun was used to beat back the Beast and to shoot off the head of another demon in Salvage. Both were non-lethal - bullets couldn't kill the Beast and the other demon's head would grow back...eventually. My main point - you don't bring a gun to a demon fight. So when a Slayer does bring a gun, their target isn't demons. It's people. It's not gun = bad. It's gun + slayer = bad. |
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Post by Rebecca on Jan 11, 2009 18:16:01 GMT -5
You say when a slayer brings a gun, their target is people, but we haven't seen any evidence that a slayer has ever actually shot a human, at least in my recollection. You say Faith shot Angel, but he is a demon, so the effort was non-lethal. You also said it was impractical, and I thought spoke to her illogical course of action more than the evils of gun-toting slayers. Conversely, Simone is packing heat while heisting humans, probably to scare since we have evidence that the guards were mind-wiped, but it does an element of danger greater than Faith-gone-rogue. I guess I tend to compartmentalize themes between shows given that they are run by practically an entire different set of people.  I definitely agree that gun + slayer = rogue slayer, but I don't think that is an exclusive definition, just think of Gigi. Personally, I think gun + slayer = bad is Buffy's definition of a slayer gone rogue, which is another reason she doesn't consider herself making bad choices like her jewel heist. |
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jan 11, 2009 18:34:52 GMT -5
The "guns aren't moral" stance resides in a realistic approach as well as the meta theme of gun control. Realistically, the only time a slayer uses a handgun it means she's doing it for personal and corrupt reasons. Oh boy do I disagree. Which is funny, because I would have agreed 100% if the word "realistically" wasn't there. I'll get into that more in the next bit, but I'll introduce what I mean here a bit by saying that, in my opinion, the "guns don't work for demons" theme is weak. Joss is clearly applying his political opinions on guns (which I agree with) to the story... but considering the mythology, it just doesn't make sense. [/quote]It's not about slaying vampires and demons - how could it be? Guns don't kill demons 99% of the time and they never kill vampires.[/quote] Where do we get "guns don't kill demons 99% of the time"? They work well for Wesley. If swords, knives, stakes, and crossbows can kill demons who, unlike vampires, don't usually require a specific death... then guns, logically, would. This is where "realistically" comes into play, because if realism were applied, demons would be as sensitive to gunshots as they are to much weaker weapons. |
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Post by Emmie on Jan 11, 2009 18:36:04 GMT -5
To me it boils down to this. Slayers are specifically vampire slayers. Their mission is to hunt vampires. Guns are essentially useless in slaying vampires. So a slayer using a gun is indicative of something more than a slayer doing her mission.
Handguns are weapons used against people, not demons. They're human weapons with human victims. So Simone using a gun means her 'targets' aren't purely demons. She's lacking a reverence for human life and I can see that carelessness leading to tragedy and more human victims in the future.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jan 11, 2009 18:37:26 GMT -5
Having taken a class on criminology, guns are 5 times more deadly than any stabbing weapon, which more often injures and doesn't kill. So, one could argue that they are more "evil". People are evil, not objects. Unless you're talking any object Indiana Jones is seeking out. Those are evil. Anything that will make another Jones movie is innately evil. I don't see why the difficulty in getting an object makes the object any less or more moral. |
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jan 11, 2009 18:41:40 GMT -5
To me it boils down to this. Slayers are specifically vampire slayers. Their mission is to hunt vampires. Guns are essentially useless in slaying vampires. So a slayer using a gun is indicative of something more than a slayer doing her mission. That is a really problematic argument. If a slayer's mission is specifically hunt vampires, and using any weapon that doesn't kill vampires is indicative of something more than a slayer doing her mission, it logically follows that if a slayer ever engages in battle with a non-vampire, they're doing something beyond their mission. Which, knowing the story of Buffy, just doesn't ring true. Buffy's used many, many weapons that couldn't kill a vampire other than guns. Simone's mental state aside, I think that knives and swords are as much "human weapons with human victims" as guns are. |
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Post by Emmie on Jan 11, 2009 19:02:17 GMT -5
Pat, I'm not limiting the slayer to just hunting vampires. I'm not a noob, I know that a majority of the foes the slayer faces aren't just vampires. By human weapons, I meant weapons that are most effective against humans. Stakes kill humans too but I'd still classify them as a weapon against vampires. Humans are more frail than vampires and demons. A bullet that is so small (as Willow noted) can cause severe damage to a human body. With a demon body, not so much. Swords, knives, stakes and other blunt objects are more effective in a battle against demons and vampires than a handgun. Now shotguns, grenades, rocket launcher...another story all-together. But Simone is carrying a handgun. Handguns are weapons most effectively used against people. They're not the ideal weapon for fighting vampires or demons. Disagree with that assessment? Handguns can be effectively used to slow demons down, but again they're not the best weapon to go for the kill with. Even Wes slaying Skip with a bullet was made possible by Angel bashing his head open with a chain in Inside Out. I'm not arguing the morality of using guns. I'm arguing their effectiveness for a slayer fighting against vampires and demons. It's not the most effective weapon to choose. For Wesley it works because (like Wyndam pointed out) it helps to slow down his opponents and weaken them a bit. For a slayer, she dives right into the thick of it, slashing and staking. And as you say, BtVS promoted that 'guns are bad' in their message. It was a theme in BtVS (not so much AtS). So Simone carrying a gun is symbolic of her state. If a slayer is gearing up for battle with mixed demon company, she's probably going to grab something like an axe or a sword. Or hey, how about the Scythe? There ya go. The slayer's weapon. A stake/axe combo. The ideal combo weapon for fighting demons. Ingenius design, as Giles says. If a slayer is fighting demons, why has she never armed herself with a gun? Is it that she's behind the times and should update the Scythe to include a semi-automatic strapped to the hilt? Or is it because guns aren't the best choice when other better-suited weapons are at hand? Now if the slayer went retro and outfitted a gun to shoot wooden bullets like back in the day, then hell yeah I'd be for her packing heat. But that hasn't been created in the 'verse. |
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Post by Rebecca on Jan 11, 2009 23:17:16 GMT -5
group hug!!!   tension resolved |
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Post by wenxina on Jan 11, 2009 23:30:41 GMT -5
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 12, 2009 5:36:51 GMT -5
I think "guns are bad" on Buffy developed mostly from "guns are useless" as it's a man-made weapon in a magical relm like you guys have mentioned.
It's actually an interesting shift that I hadn't really considered before. Buffy is obviously aware that they need to be in trained hands, and developed a personaly dislike for them while with Riley and the Initiative in my opinion - we see her slam Riley's guns etc later in "As You Were" a lot. But after Warren, I think Buffy is actually probably very scared of guns as well. I'd say the day she got shot was probably the closest to mortal she's felt in a long long time.
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Post by Emmie on Jan 12, 2009 13:27:23 GMT -5
...I think Pat got tired of arguing with me. Is the group hug offer still good? Sorry if my tone got a bit tense up there, but it is my mission in life to deny Pat pwnage. |
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jan 12, 2009 15:23:55 GMT -5
Nah, I think the pwnage still pwned. ;] Pat, I'm not limiting the slayer to just hunting vampires. I'm not a noob, I know that a majority of the foes the slayer faces aren't just vampires. No, I know you're not a noob. It's just that the way the "guns don't kill vampires, therefore..." argument was worded, that's exactly what you were saying. I get your points about guns, which you stated clearly in the rest of this particular post, but the other argument you had before just didn't follow, in my opinion. That said, I still disagree. I think the "guns don't work against demons, but sharp and weaker objects do" just doesn't make sense realistically. If a demon came through with a bullet proof vest, 'nother story. As is, I just kinda think it's sacrificing a bit of the story in favor of supporting a political agenda. And it's funny, because I agree with Joss's political agenda here. I just wish it didn't negatively impact the logistics of BtVS and, in my opinion, it does. |
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Post by Emmie on Jan 12, 2009 18:41:15 GMT -5
Nah, I think the pwnage still pwned. ;] Nah, pwnage was denied, deflected, denounced, all kinds of de-'s words. By the way, this discussion has been carried over to BF here where they have some additional interesting specs. In particular, Rowan Hawthorn's post shows the impractical nature of using guns while slaying. *further deflects pwnage*  |
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Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,069
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Post by Mathieu on Jan 18, 2009 15:48:00 GMT -5
I'm jumping back to what was said months ago but personnally I LOVE Jo Chen's cover. Excellent likeness of Buffy. The variant is wicked too.
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Jan 19, 2009 22:30:26 GMT -5
Can someone take out the "spoiler" in the original post? #19 has already been released and people may think, by clicking on that, they are being spoiled about something pre-released.
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Tommi
Common Vampire
The Other Cowboy Guy![Mo0:28]
Posts: 87
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Post by Tommi on Jan 30, 2009 13:37:29 GMT -5
I'm really excited about this issue, I can't wait to learn more about Simone and her intentions!  |
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