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Post by monkeypie on Apr 6, 2009 18:20:40 GMT -5
i don't see why Giles would react to it. Faith and him have been doing their thing for a while now, i'm sure i could think of examples of buffy behaviour he objects to in series one which he lets slide further on in the series.
On top of that, i dont see why Giles always being called Giles by Faith is a reason Faith should always call Giles Giles. I have several nicknames for one of my best friends, and have progressed from his full first name to his shortened first name to his full last name to his shortened last name to sometimes just his initial.
I don't see how you can say its a misconception about Faith because shes calling Giles something different. I felt the relationship between Giles and Faith was a bit like Buffy and Giles's used to be.
However, i do think without the actors delivering the lines, it meant several lines which would have been fine if delivered by Eliza or Anthony Stewart Head may not sound right or convey the same emotion in print.
Basically, i dunno, and i forgot what i was arguing. Giles would despise my lack of focus.
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Skeptic
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Post by Skeptic on Apr 6, 2009 19:20:45 GMT -5
Didn't really bother me when she called him G. That is to say that it bothered me about as much as it did when she called Buffy "B" - because I knew she was doing it to be familiar, and maybe to insinuate herself into Buffy's life and be in her gang. It annoyed Buffy, so I picked up on that. I'm sure it annoys Giles a little.
Seems like she called her "B" less in S7, or did I just make that up?
Anyway, it was a small thing and when I read it, I had to stop about 2 seconds and mentally jog back to remember if "G" is a new or old thing. I can see how it doesn't ring true for the character, though. Honestly, Faith had changed so much from her stint in the pokey and abandoned a lot of those childish nicknames and old grudges. This issue seemed like she had some of that maturity, but not all of it, plus she seemed actually a bit regressed and kind of used as filler, which is I guess what made Faith seem 'off' to me.
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Post by Emmie on Apr 6, 2009 20:09:19 GMT -5
The thing about the nicknames with Faith is that unlike how we in RL use nicknames, Faith doesn't do it just for familiarity's sake. It also denotes ingratiating behavior/disrespect like when she first met up with Buffy. Using the full name for Faith shows she respects the person. It's why I think she always called Giles "Giles" in the show. She envied Buffy her watcher, liked him and was impressed with him from the very beginning.
Now think of Faith with Angel, who I'd say no matter how close she's gotten to Giles, she'll always be even closer to Angel because of the mindwalk of Orpheus in AtS Season 4. Throughout the entire episode, Faith calls Angel "Angel". Compare this to all the nicknames she calls Angelus in Orpheus: "dumbass", "princess", "psycho".
Faith calling someone by their true name is a sign of respect. That's why she rejected Wesley her watcher ("screw that") while initially she accepted Gwendolyn Post ("Ms. Post"). Calling someone a nickname isn't just about familiarity to Faith, it's about superiority and rejecting them. It's actually the opposite. Keeping them from getting close to her.
Think about all those times Faith called Buffy "B" - in mosts cases she was 1) trying to manipulate to her way of thinking or she was 2) trying to kill her. That's not about respect or familiarity. The nicknames from Faith don't mean what Krueger was trying to go for.
And really, isn't the point supposed to be that Faith is now familiar and equal to Giles? If that was the case, I wish she'd called him "Rupert", "Giles" or even "Rupes" in modifying his first name, instead. We already know that Giles doesn't like being called "G", so if Faith was trying to be respectful, familiar and equal to Giles she just failed by giving him a nickname he hates. (Who likes being called a nickname they hate?)
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vampmogs
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Post by vampmogs on Apr 6, 2009 20:10:23 GMT -5
Is there any reason why he should necessarily have to object? He reacted to Xander calling him "G-Man" but then we know he always had double standards with Xander. Xander actually says this in 'Passion' when he calls Buffy a "Watcher's pet."
I could certainly see Giles letting it slide with Faith, particularly when she seems persistent in calling people nicknames wether they like it or not. I don't always think Faith calling Buffy "B" was a way to piss her off, or sway her over to her side. She calls Buffy "B" to Angel in 'Sanctuary' when she remembers how she hurt her. And she certainly wasn't doing it to piss off Angel, or a Buffy who wasn't even in the room.
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Post by Emmie on Apr 6, 2009 20:12:05 GMT -5
I could certainly see Giles letting it slide with Faith, particularly when she seems persistent in calling people nicknames wether they like it or not. I'll point up to my post above. I go into why Faith actually matured past calling people names just because she could. Using a person's real name is a sign of respect from the Faith we got to know in S7/S4 of BUFFY and ANGEL. Another example of the deflecting/derogatory nicknames comes from Faith calling the SITs "wannabes". And one of the only (it could actually be THE only time but I haven't checked it fully) times she calls Buffy "B" in Season 7 is right after Buffy's just punched her in Dirty Girls. The other times she calls Buffy "Buffy". "B" is partially a defense mechanism for Faith. Nicknames for Faith aren't solely about bonding, but about deflection. The person she's absolutely the closest to in either series is Angel imo. And when we see a mature Faith out of prison, she calls him by his name "Angel". You don't get more familiar than Angel and Faith relating to each other in AtS Season 4. Again, the fact that Giles would have to "let the it slide" shows that Faith would be stomping on his toes by calling him that name. And because 1) Faith respects Giles and 2) has matured past her defensive crap (except she apparently hasn't in #24 but anyways...), then she wouldn't choose that as a nickname for Giles. It smacks of the similar immaturity we saw of Faith in the way she related to Courtney. An immaturity that runs counter to her mission to "help these girls" from NFFY. Compare the way she acts with Connor in AtS Season 4 to Courtney. With Connor, Faith is actually serving as a role model. With Courtney, she's more sarcastic and deflective without actually showing her much til the very final panel. The Faith of #24 is devolved in characterization. Not just from the developments of NFFY but also from S7 of BUFFY and S4 of ANGEL. |
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vampmogs
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Post by vampmogs on Apr 6, 2009 20:25:21 GMT -5
But as I said. In 'Sanctuary' Faith refers to Buffy as "B" when she’s talking with Angel in the kitchen. And she's certainly not doing it out of disrespect or to rattle up Angel or a Buffy who isn't even there. She does it when she remembers how much she hurt her.
She also says “time’s goes by Will” in ‘Orpheus’ which doesn’t read as a defence mechanism or a way to rattle Willow up. She says it with fondness, and it’s something she had never called Willow before in either series.
When I say "let it slide" I mean more that Giles knows she's just doing it in a playful manner. There's no malicious intent. The same way Buffy and the Scoobs often teased Giles.
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Post by Emmie on Apr 6, 2009 20:35:30 GMT -5
But as I said. In 'Sanctuary' Faith refers to Buffy as "B" when she’s talking with Angel in the kitchen. And she's certainly not doing it out of disrespect or to rattle up Angel or a Buffy who isn't even there. She does it when she remembers how much she hurt her. Again, I was pointing to later Faith and denoting her maturity at this point. And arguably, at this point "B" has become so familiar to Faith herself that it's habit. This doesn't change the fact that the origin of the nickname was about ingratiation and manipulation. When I say "let it slide" I mean more that Giles knows she's just doing it in a playful manner. There's no malicious intent. The same way Buffy and the Scoobs often teased Giles. Just as Xander did it in a playful manner. And I don't think Giles would "let it slide" just because it was playful. Giles disliked the nickname because he disliked it. Not because it came from Xander. The way he shut Xander down might have had to do with Xander, but he didn't like the nickname in and of itself. His distaste for it was very clear, saying "don't ever call me that again" essentially. And also, I don't think Sanctuary is going to be the best place to make an argument for characterization. We see how problematic that is with Buffy herself. But that's actually incidental as more importantly that episode is when she's still very much in the stage of having not matured. Look to Angel for a better example of how she'd treat Giles now, not Buffy. He's a closer example as 1) both Angel and Giles have dark pasts like Faith and 2) they serve as mentors/equals to her and 3) they're very close and not antagonistic towards each other/don't have a rivalry. And also, look to how Faith acts in Season 7 BUFFY and Season 4 ANGEL also. Anything earlier than that is not going to be normative for her behavior now as she grew and matured a lot since then. If Faith is meant to be Giles' equal as of the end of NFFY, then #24 devolves her to a petulant child with the usage of the nickname "G" as that is also the common association for that nickname in its context with Xander's usage. And frankly, Faith being a petulant child rings very true for many parts of this issue. |
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vampmogs
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Post by vampmogs on Apr 6, 2009 21:45:16 GMT -5
Again, I was pointing to later Faith and denoting her maturity at this point. And arguably, at this point "B" has become so familiar to Faith herself that it's habit. This doesn't change the fact that the origin of the nickname was about ingratiation and manipulation. I don't think it was. Doesn't Faith call Buffy "B" as soon as they meet. "Thanks B, couldn't have done it without you" At this point she wasn't trying to manipulate or rattle Buffy up in anyway. That comes later when she starts viewing Buffy as "a tight ass with no sense of fun." I'm just not convinced she does it for the reasons you say she does. Later she might, but the reason she started calling her that wasn't out of any desire to annoy Buffy. A lot of the criticism here was that Faith has never called Giles "G" before so why start now. That applies to "Will" as well. It apparently is for Faith. She's done it twice now, 'Safe' is canon and must be included as a part of Faith's journey. Besides, Faith is hardly the only character on television to call people by their first letter. Especially "B" even Stewie on 'Family Guy' has done it. Actually no, a lot of the times it's the way in which Xander expresses himself that Giles takes issue with. Not necessarily the things he says. In 'Passion' he scorns Xander for "boiling things down to their simplest form" but doesn't hold it against Buffy at all. Hence, "watcher's pet." But really, Giles took issue with "G Man" not "G" and took issue with this back in 'When She Was Bad.' The idea he's loosened up a bit isn't really all that preposterous. And since it’s actually not the same nickname, pretending that it is doesn’t really work. It's not antagonistic unless you want to make it so. A lot of people read that nickname as a sign of affection, as did I, not antagonism. Which is why it didn't jump out at us when we read it. It actually made me smile. Which really is where we view this so differently. You think it’s miss-characterisation because you see it as Faith trying to rattle Giles up, I see it as a sign of how they’ve bonded because I view it as coming from a place of affection. The whole set up of the line, “She’s calling me names G” is making fun of Courtney, not Giles. As is that brilliant side look Richard’s gives her in the drawing. I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this one Emmie. We disagree about so much even regarding Faith's use of a nickname that it'll be impossible to come to some sort of agreement on her using it here. |
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Post by Emmie on Apr 6, 2009 22:02:33 GMT -5
Again, I was pointing to later Faith and denoting her maturity at this point. And arguably, at this point "B" has become so familiar to Faith herself that it's habit. This doesn't change the fact that the origin of the nickname was about ingratiation and manipulation. I don't think it was. Doesn't Faith call Buffy "B" as soon as they meet. "Thanks B, couldn't have done it without you" At this point she wasn't trying to manipulate or rattle Buffy up in anyway. That comes later when she starts viewing Buffy as "a tight ass with no sense of fun." I'm just not convinced she does it for the reasons you say she does. Later she might, but the reason she started calling her that wasn't out of any desire to annoy Buffy. You're ignoring the context. Faith rolls into town, takes Buffy's stake out of her hand and dismissively calls her "B". That is absolutely not a friendly "let's bond" nickname. It's her being superior and dismissive of Buffy for being useless in the fight. It was Faith being mockingly ironic. A lot of the criticism here was that Faith has never called Giles "G" before so why start now. That applies to "Will" as well. Again, ignoring the context of the nicknames themselves. Faith calling Willow "Will" is progression. "G" is regression. And while the criticism superficially might be simply that she'd never said it before, in the discussion here between you and I that has never been the crux of the issue. The fact remains that while people may notice it sounding wrong and latch onto the reason being that she never did it before only means they misdiagnosed why it sounds wrong. Not that it doesn't still sound wrong. It apparently is for Faith. She's done it twice now, 'Safe' is canon and must be included as a part of Faith's journey. Besides, Faith is hardly the only character on television to call people by their first letter. Especially "B" even Stewie on 'Family Guy' has done it. Just as Empty Places is canon and yet we all know how many discussions abound about the OC behavior of everyone in that episode. Canon does not = good writing and good characterization. It = canon. And yes, #24 is being included. But I'm just sad to say that it's being included as regression for her character from where she was at in NFFY in regards to her relationship with Giles and in how she planned on treating her peer Slayers. Why would I be happy about it just because it's canon? It's even more disappointing because it's canon. Just as Empty Places sits awfully breaking up the Scoobies right before the end of the final season on television. Actually no, a lot of the times it's the way in which Xander expresses himself that Giles takes issue with. Not necessarily the things he says. In 'Passion' he scorns Xander for "boiling things down to their simplest form" but doesn't hold it against Buffy at all. Hence, "watcher's pet." But really, Giles took issue with "G Man" not "G" and took issue with this back in 'When She Was Bad.' The idea he's loosened up a bit isn't really all that preposterous. And since it’s actually not the same nickname, pretending that it is doesn’t really work. If he has loosened up since Season 2 in this regard, I'm sure we'd have seen it in the six whole seasons of shows since When She Was Bad. The fact that we don't shows that Giles has maintained an environment where he's called by his first or last name only. To have #24 jump on this shows a misunderstanding of his character and the boundaries he enjoys and establishes his relationship. It's not antagonistic unless you want to make it so. A lot of people read that nickname as a sign of affection, as did I, not antagonism. Which is why it didn't jump out at us when we read it. It actually made me smile. Which really is where we view this so differently. You think it’s miss-characterisation because you see it as Faith trying to rattle Giles up, I see it as a sign of how they’ve bonded because I view it as coming from a place of affection. The whole set up of the line, “She’s calling me names G” is making fun of Courtney, not Giles. As is that brilliant side look Richard’s gives her in the drawing. I'm not reading it as antagonism because of the tone. You're also completely bypassing the main crux of my argument that the "G" and the line sound off as "petulant child" tone which is regression. Faith doesn't come off as Giles' equal here. This is further denoted by him effectively silencing her later on "Enough, Faith." And no, I've never read it as Faith rattling Giles. And no I don't read it as Faith being antagonistic. You've misunderstood my point about showing equality (true name) vs. defensive/ingratiating/mocking/antagonistic (nickname) for Faith, and are translating it to say that I think Faith was being antagonistic in saying the line. I understand that scene very well. Unless you're mistaking my point because of the phrase "petulant child" which is also not an antagonistic stance. Not sure where you're getting this interpretation of my 'reading' according to you. Your breakdown of why I "see it as mischaracterization" bears no resemblance to any of my arguments. The antagonism and nicknames I was referencing were in regards to Buffy herself and Angelus specifically. I still don't read the line as antagonistic. I read it as OC that's going for familiar affection but misses it's mark due to misapplied language usage by the character. |
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Apr 7, 2009 5:40:57 GMT -5
Wow, this is quite an insightful discussion. I'd never really noticed how Faith uses nicknames defensively to establish her own superiority, but looking back, it makes perfect sense!
I think I'm just consigning "Safe" to the bad episode bin and moving on my life.
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Post by sosa lola on Apr 7, 2009 7:33:09 GMT -5
I don't see why "G" is a regression, I find it more friendly than "Rupes". I just read it as Faith feeling more at ease with Giles now instead of calling him by his family name, and Giles not reacting shows how close they are with each other.
Giles objecting to Xander calling him G-man seems to be more about who said it than the nickname itself. Giles usually loses his temper with Xander than any other Scooby.
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Skeptic
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Post by Skeptic on Apr 7, 2009 9:27:05 GMT -5
It has its merits, and I didn't find it awful, just... off. Like... these are the characters I know and love, but they're weird and confusing. But yeah, I chalk this one up to a writer just missing the forest for the trees, just like a handful of eps from the TV airing that I tend to skip over or not rewatch often. When it comes to Faith, I think, she might just be one of those characters that's so unique that her voice can only be captured by her original writers.
I bet Jim never dreamt that one little letter would provoke so much discussion, for sure! It's been interesting reading, I must say.
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richie
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Post by richie on Apr 7, 2009 12:43:38 GMT -5
i dont know why the fuzz abou the "G" thing...
Faith called buffy B all the time...
so, for me at least, it was natural she calling giles "G"...
for me its not a disrespect... its just Faith being Faith
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Marcos
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Post by Marcos on Apr 7, 2009 13:49:31 GMT -5
Wow, this is indeed a fine example on how wonderfully serious we are about our love for the Buffyverse. It's really good to be part of it ^^ But, well, I'm with Emmie on this. I always noticed how Faith LOVES to use nicknames just for the sake of being a bitch. If someone who's trying to kill you gives you a nickname as if she was close to ya, well, it makes everything much funnier for the killer. Dark irony, mockery. Faith always used it, and "B" has always been this kind of ironic nickname (since the first time they met, as Emmie pointed). She never called Wilkins "W", did she? or "Daddy Snake"? (Ha, that'd be weird XD) It doesn't mean that she won't use nicknames as a true sign of affection. The problem is that G is a direct reference of B, and since B has always been about denigration... I now Emmie already put all those arguments, but, well, I'm just saying I agree with her  I didn't notice the "G" thing the first time I read the issue, but now I see it was a mistake in the script. A subtle one, though. Can't really blame the writer for this because this nickname stuff is kinda deep character profiling. It's very subtle, and the writer gotta be a long-time Buffy fanatic to capture that and avoid this mistake... Yet, it's still a mistake. So, congrats Emmie, for your arguments on that ^^ |
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Post by Emmie on Apr 7, 2009 13:54:54 GMT -5
I now Emmie already put all those arguments, but, well, I'm just saying I agree with her I didn't notice the "G" thing the first time I read the issue, but now I see it was a mistake in the script. A subtle one, though. Can't really blame the writer for this because this nickname stuff is kinda deep character profiling. It's very subtle, and the writer gotta be a long-time Buffy fanatic to capture that and avoid this mistake... Yet, it's still a mistake. So, congrats Emmie, for your arguments on that ^^ It is very subtle, yes. And it only happens once which is why it's not really a big deal in and of itself. But it's just indicative of Krueger not quite getting the characters on the whole. Giles and Faith are just slightly off, slightly flat, their dialogue doesn't fit them well. I actually find Giles nigh-robotic dialogue during the first half of the issue to be far worse as it doesn't fit him at all. |
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Post by wenxina on Apr 7, 2009 16:01:14 GMT -5
"Daddy Snake" would have been disturbingly wrong... EEK!
And "B" as a nickname is deliciously ironic, since Faith has always been the B-Slayer.
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Marcos
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Post by Marcos on Apr 7, 2009 16:58:03 GMT -5
"Daddy Snake" would have been disturbingly wrong... EEK! And "B" as a nickname is deliciously ironic, since Faith has always been the B-Slayer. Wow, good point!! Never realized that!!! It really does make the "B" nickname much more ironic and meaningful. It may be an unconscious way of Faith telling Buffy who's in charge in the slayer lineage. Or just a coincidence that works like a metaphor for the Faith/Buffy relationship... Either way, it's very cool!  good point, wenxina! |
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deathisyourgift
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Post by deathisyourgift on Apr 7, 2009 20:55:51 GMT -5
I'm going to post my very succinct response to this issue:
I was kinda disappointed with it. I really enjoyed the first Giles & Faith romp, so I was expecting a lot from this issue. However, I found the escapades of this little story to be boring and a bit stupid. The only thing I liked was that Faith had to act as Slayer-mentor for once, and in her dry way had a few good lines. Giles was boring, the monster was boring, the town, the fights..I feel like this issue was a big let down for me. Oh well, hopefully next issue will be better.
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rmw
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Post by rmw on Apr 7, 2009 22:58:10 GMT -5
Still waiting on my copy of this issue. I'm excited to see Giles and Faith again.
EDIT: got the issue, read it, liked it for the most part. For me, it didn't ring true to the characters, but I thought the story was good if the characterization and growth (or lack thereof) was not.
Not my favorite issue.
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Apr 9, 2009 14:59:35 GMT -5
Not to be rude but why the hell are people actually sitting on here getting angry and having in depth discussions on why Faith called Giles "G"? She called Buffy "B" and has had an assorted amount of nicknames for characters throughout the series. Even when we do the Q&A's after each ish, he tells us that sometimes we are reading WAY to deep into it, like seeing things where their is nothing to see.
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