Marc got his feelings hurt?

[roguewarrior]

I never disliked Riley. most of the first few seasons that I watched for the first time I didn't really care what happened. I don't like him as much now, but I still don't hate him, though he was really annoying in the fifth season.

[CowboyGuy]

I like the idea of Riley on paper. But he was kinda stale.

The things they did with him in S5, made me like him more.

...Plus, he had better hair.

[chosenone87]

admin said:

I like the idea of Riley on paper. But he was kinda stale.

The things they did with him in S5, made me like him more.

...Plus, he had better hair.

i cant say i even liked the idea on paper. but i do agree that he was stale. especially after the dramas with angel.

yeah, definately. (about the hair)

i found it really interesting that he went to the vampire brothels... an interesting mix of symbolism and irony.

[spikeluv13]

Marc is a great actor. The part of riley was dry. He had to play the part and to see tons of people downing your performance has to suck. It should have been about the character, not the actor.

I found the vampire brothels symbolic as well. a very good twist that gave depth to his character. and the ultimate betrayal to buffy.

[chosenone87]

spikeluv13 said:

Marc is a great actor. The part of riley was dry...

I found the vampire brothels symbolic as well. a very good twist that gave depth to his character. and the ultimate betrayal to buffy.

Yeah it was very symbolic, and he needed depth. I think at that point was when viewers started to see the character as a real person, not the cardboard cutout kinda guy that he had been previously. :jawdrop:

[Epica]

I pretty much lost all sympathy for Riley with the vampire brothel thing. The storyline was interesting though. But the fact that he has to pay vampires to drink his blood just to feel needed on some basic level? Seriously, I just found that pathetic. Showed some serious codependency issues that went far beyond Buffy. So the fact that everybody made it all Buffy's fault just enfuriates me.

And I just don't get why the people in television relationships can't just TALK. When there's an issue, the healthy, non-destructive way to deal with it is by TALKING. Instead Riley just stews about how Buffy doesn't give him enough attention. IMO Buffy and Riley were never very well-suited to each other, cause I don't think Buffy wants to be with a man who feels the need to compete with her.

Also, consider that my relationship experience is, well, non-existant. So maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about.

[Emmie]

I think its funny how this article says the writers tried so hard to get the audience to like Riley...and clearly that didn't work. Maybe they were trying too hard.

Reminds me of how the writers kept trying to make the audience dislike Spike in Season 6 (Seeing Red esp.). I credit Spike's popularity to the way Marsters played him with 'more soul' than was written.

In the end maybe it comes down to the actors. Marsters made his character so likeable that it spanned 7 seasons on both Buffy and Angel when he was supposed to be killed off. Blucas' Riley...I don't know it just felt like he was taking up so much space without making it worthwhile.

[themaleslayer]

Riley was a bad replacement for Angel. Like Dawn, however, he became a character became fond of and was shocked to see him go.

[artiswar]

It's sad that the poor guy had his feelings hurt by all the hate. I really like Riley, and I thought he was the most caring boyfriend Buffy had, and she just treated him like complete crap and a sex object. He had a few dull moments throughout, but overall he did a good job. I wish he had more screen time with the gang instead of Buffy, cause I got tired of seeing them together, their relationship was always very stagnant... "Ooh, Riley, do you trust me? Ok let's have sex now". But as a whole, Riley wasn't anymore one dimensional than freakin Angel in the first 3 seasons of Buffy.

[Wyndam]

For the record, I never really hated Riley either. I thought he was an interesting addition to the show, and really liked him before we found out he was a member of the Initiative. After that, he became a really dull character to me during the rest of Season 4 (I know, weird that I thought he was more interesting as JUST a normal guy). I liked his plot developments in Season 5 though, as it was just so clear at that point how much he loved Buffy, yet Buffy just did not see him as a priority in her life. I thought his exit episode was really well done. His relationship had really spun out of control and he was becoming extremely isolated from who he once was, all because of how much he loved Buffy and wished she'd show him a little more love in return.

[postitnote]

I think Riley was exactly what Buffy needed to experience after the whole Angel/Parker debacle because...yes, he was stable and he was definitely the type that would still be in the bed when she woke up. I think people just think 'no, Buffy belongs with Angel' but if you go back and watch seasons 1-3 (especially 3), that relationship was awkward, unstable, and Angel acted uncomfortable around Buffy most of the time.

Riley gave Buffy the chance at a "normal" relationship but tying into Joss's original statement for the show: "Nothing is as it seems." I don't think the relationship would've even lasted as long as it did had it not been for Riley's monster-fighting cred.

The entire Buffy-in-a-relationship dynamic? The only time we show Buffy actually being "close," not just physically or romantically but emotionally and mentally...is with Spike during "Touched." She never had that with Angel, never tried with Riley, and look at how she's treating Satsu now. The closest she came with Angel was when she wasn't technically in a relationship with him, yet she was still wary because of the curse and what getting too close meant, so she backed off. Before that, he was mostly 'he understands having to tone down his power,' so I feel close to him...but she mistook that for actual closeness, actual openness. That's why it hurt so much when he went "evil," that's why we feel so impacted during that scene. That's why our hearts broke right with her. She thought she was close, got her heart broken, and was never able to really, honestly connect with anybody unless it was in a sexual manner...until Spike. He said exactly what she needed to hear, that it wasn't because he loved her but because she was just one helluva woman. I didn't expect her to have fat grandchildren in the offing with Spike, and he knew that, which makes it more powerful. The fact that she "touches the fire" in Spike's hand?? That is a powerful exclamation. She is saying with that simple intimate gesture, "I'm no longer frozen. Thank you, you did that for me." When she says "I love you," that's what she really means, not because she really loves him but that she loves what he's done for her...and he knew that, which again, makes it more beautiful.

I honestly think that their relationship was an eternal love for Angel but not for Buffy. Sure, he'll always be in her heart but she wouldn't be able to be "in love" again or "close" to him. The fact that she was all sex with Riley and Spike goes on her lack of it with Angel, making those two love interests foils to her first love and the first love usually defines how we act in future relationships whether we admit it or not.

Riley (like Kennedy) was the perfect foil to the previous love interest. I'm sure Marc realized this when he auditioned, and Joss even knew to warn him beforehand. It's the hardcore "it has to be my favorite way" people that don't recognize the significance and importance of the character development when a character like Riley or Kennedy are introduced. Even Tara had some backlash because she wasn't Oz. Anya had backlash because she wasn't Cordelia. It happens in all fandoms and that just says something about the fandom itself. We love the stories, we love the characters so much that we don't want to see them meet new people and change.

Wow. I'm getting way to close-readery and literary with this. I need to stop now. LOL. Okay, at least for now. When I get these articles published in scholarly journals about my Buffy studies, then I'll rant some more. LOL.

[Enisy]

Specifics about the treatment Marc got, by the way:

Did you have people come up to you on the street and tell you that Angel should be with her instead of you?
Marc Blucas: Not on the street, really, but the Internet was different. I never really got warned not to go online, and I did at first. Before my first show even aired there was a picture of me on a site with the comment, "Who is this guy, he's an ape -- if she's not going to be with Angel she shouldn't be with anyone" next to it. I don't know where they get these things. And while I certainly don't deny the primate comparison, I was a little shocked!

Joss Whedon: I did see that Marc had been here and was (graciously) reeling from the nasty things people had said. Twice in a row! congratulations! No actor will EVER DARE SET FOOT HERE AGAIN! Weeee!!!!..... Actually, i understand if people don't particularly support B/R or B/A, that story stuff and everyone's entitled to their preference. But some stuff is too personal (Hey, I'm still cranky that someone posted I couldn't dance). I just love the fact that people posted that Amber is too fat and Marc is too Skinny. Having been around both of them (one of them shirtless...) (no, you idiot, Marc! What kind of a show do you think I'm running?), I laff till it hurts and I have to stop. It's pretty much like saying i'm too asian.

[Emmie]

Apr 9, 2008 15:01:23 GMT -5 postitnote said:

I think Riley was exactly what Buffy needed to experience after the whole Angel/Parker debacle because...yes, he was stable and he was definitely the type that would still be in the bed when she woke up. I think people just think 'no, Buffy belongs with Angel' but if you go back and watch seasons 1-3 (especially 3), that relationship was awkward, unstable, and Angel acted uncomfortable around Buffy most of the time.

I think a huge part of Angel being uncomfortable was because he was fighting his feelings for Buffy (you're the slayer and innocent while i'm a evil vampire who doesn't deserve you) up til Surprise. Then his return in Season 3 was uncomfortable again with having to fight their own feelings. Season 3 WAS an example of why they couldn't work together as a couple, but it was outside forces and not their connection that caused the strain. That was the tragedy.

A counterpoint to the argument of Angel being uncomfortable is the scene in 'Ted' where Buffy is tending to Angel after WhatsMyLine and complaining about her mom's bf. Angel looks incredibly relaxed, amused and loving in that scene to me.

Angel acting uncomfortable seems to stem also from his not understanding how to fit in with humanity. Getting close without wanting to bite down. But I don't believe their relationship or being with Buffy made him uncomfortable. It was the NOT being with Buffy that was the problem.

When you compare confident, assured leader Angel of AtS season 5 with the lurking, uncertain Angel of Buffy Season 1 - yes Angel is going to seem uncomfortable and awkward by comparison. (Tho he still seems that way when it comes to women <coughs> Nina.) I attribute the awkwardness of Buffy's part to naivete. But I view his relationship with Buffy as the training wheels he needed in order to reintegrate into human society. In Angelus' words, she made him feel like a man and not a monster. His growth evident on AtS started with Buffy - she's the one who drew him out of the shadows and set him on his path. I believe she's one of the most pivotal catalysts for his character growth and arguably the most positive life-altering relationship (romantic or otherwise) he's had. Others might point to Cordelia as another source, but I view her as helping him along the path he already chose whereas Buffy inspired him to go down that path and showed him how.

Oh and clearly I love B/A alot.

Haha laughing to myself because I totally tangented this thread. Oops...anyways having a normal bf to follow that relationship which they sold to the audience as starcrossed lovers and soulmates, it was doomed to be boring by comparison. Its a foil, but sadly in some ways its that of very high, emotional drama to aw, shucks Riley. I don't hate Riley, I'm just not braiding an 'i love you you're hot' bracelet that I would gladly make for Angel or Spike.

[Enisy]

I don't think Riley/Buffy's "normalcy" was the problem there. I mean, Angel/Cordelia were also sold to us as star-crossed lovers and "destined", just like Angel/Buffy, but I didn't find them the most exciting of pairings. It's all about the execution.

[Emmie]

The Angel/Cordy as destined and starcrossed didn't work for me because it felt like the copycat relationship of Buffy/Angel. They said out loud about Angel/Cordy what many already thought about Buffy/Angel. Cordy even went blond in that season which was not the best look for Charisma.

[Enisy]

The whole "soulmates" / "love of a lifetime" / "destined" / "true love" / "Kyrumption" / "Moira" labeling is one of the few things I dislike about the Buffyverse. All of Angel's main 'ships (Angel/Darla, Angel/Buffy and Angel/Cordelia) were marketed as such by the writers, the actors or the onscreen material at one point or another, so how much weight can those terms hold, really? And Joss called Tara "Willow's one true love", but she's dead now, most likely irreversibly -- would people really prefer to see Willow alone and miserable, than happy with a girl besides her alleged "soulmate"? And Spike feels Buffy is his "soulmate", but wouldn't it be a tad too Daniel Bedingfield for it to work one-way ("If I'm not made for you, then why does my heart tell me that I am")? I mostly opt to dismiss those labels as trite storytelling techniques.

[littleshiva]

Yeah, I hated Riley, not Marc. I can't stand Riley, in fact. But if he's Twilight, then...

[postitnote]

Apr 9, 2008 15:43:18 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Apr 9, 2008 15:01:23 GMT -5 postitnote said:

I think Riley was exactly what Buffy needed to experience after the whole Angel/Parker debacle because...yes, he was stable and he was definitely the type that would still be in the bed when she woke up. I think people just think 'no, Buffy belongs with Angel' but if you go back and watch seasons 1-3 (especially 3), that relationship was awkward, unstable, and Angel acted uncomfortable around Buffy most of the time.

I concur. They were both the first stepping points (even though he was older both age-wise and body wise) for each other, and they were the starting points but I argue that they aren't the be all/end all that everybody thinks. I honestly don't think they would ever work after everything that happens. Yes, Buffy admits she sometimes thinks about it...but that's part of the whole 'first love' thing. I still think about mine. Who doesn't think about it?

I think a huge part of Angel being uncomfortable was because he was fighting his feelings for Buffy (you're the slayer and innocent while i'm a evil vampire who doesn't deserve you) up til Surprise. Then his return in Season 3 was uncomfortable again with having to fight their own feelings. Season 3 WAS an example of why they couldn't work together as a couple, but it was outside forces and not their connection that caused the strain. That was the tragedy.

A counterpoint to the argument of Angel being uncomfortable is the scene in 'Ted' where Buffy is tending to Angel after WhatsMyLine and complaining about her mom's bf. Angel looks incredibly relaxed, amused and loving in that scene to me.

Angel acting uncomfortable seems to stem also from his not understanding how to fit in with humanity. Getting close without wanting to bite down. But I don't believe their relationship or being with Buffy made him uncomfortable. It was the NOT being with Buffy that was the problem.

When you compare confident, assured leader Angel of AtS season 5 with the lurking, uncertain Angel of Buffy Season 1 - yes Angel is going to seem uncomfortable and awkward by comparison. (Tho he still seems that way when it comes to women <coughs> Nina.) I attribute the awkwardness of Buffy's part to naivete. But I view his relationship with Buffy as the training wheels he needed in order to reintegrate into human society. In Angelus' words, she made him feel like a man and not a monster. His growth evident on AtS started with Buffy - she's the one who drew him out of the shadows and set him on his path. I believe she's one of the most pivotal catalysts for his character growth and arguably the most positive life-altering relationship (romantic or otherwise) he's had. Others might point to Cordelia as another source, but I view her as helping him along the path he already chose whereas Buffy inspired him to go down that path and showed him how.

Oh and clearly I love B/A alot.

Haha laughing to myself because I totally tangented this thread. Oops...anyways having a normal bf to follow that relationship which they sold to the audience as starcrossed lovers and soulmates, it was doomed to be boring by comparison. Its a foil, but sadly in some ways its that of very high, emotional drama to aw, shucks Riley. I don't hate Riley, I'm just not braiding an 'i love you you're hot' bracelet that I would gladly make for Angel or Spike.

[postitnote]

Along the lines of soulmate and 'one true love' talk?? Yes, Joss said that...but that doesn't mean he believes Willow should be alone. Matter of fact, he mentioned that he wanted one happy relationship at the finale and he gave it to Willow. Soulmates are difficult to discuss because of the different ideals about them. For me? There can be more than one person out there for somebody. Soulmates just means (for me) that a person meshes perfectly with another person at one point. Tara just meshed perfectly with Willow at that point. However, she would not have at the beginning of the show or even until season 3.

[Enisy]

Yeah, your interpretation is pretty much the only one I could get behind.