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Post by charlesgunn on May 16, 2008 16:44:19 GMT -5
I'm new to the site so I don't know if their is a topic that discusses this but I just wanted to start one. Buffy, Angel, and Firefly all show incredible character development which you really don't see in other shows. Nearly every single character in all of the shows, through their experiences, adapt and change. (Which is true in real life)
Cordy, Wes, Gunn, Buffy, Xander, Willow, Anya, Angel, Mal, and many of the other characters end up completely different at the end of the series (and even continues in the comics) in comparison to when they were first introduced.
What's everyone thoughts in regards to this? Also explain your favorite characters progression and development.
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artiswar
Novice Witch
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Post by artiswar on May 16, 2008 17:26:52 GMT -5
The best character development has to be Wesley Wyndam Pryce by far... What that character goes through simply cannot be described. I was just watching the Faith arc in season 4 a few days ago, and during Release I remember sitting with my jaw on the floor when Wes shanks the junkie in the backroom at the demon bar, screams at Faith to 'SHUT UP' and twists the knife painfully. I hadn't seen this in a while and it got me thinking about Wes in general. then after I watched Orpheus, the part where Wes and Willow talk about their darkness, Wes says "I saw a darkness in me" or something to that effect. This made the ending of Billy click for me, and I realized that Billy's blood made Wes tap into something primordial that he hadn't know existed. I never liked the ending to that episode, with Wes crying behind the apartment door, I found it an unneccesarily down note for the episode, but now the significance of that episode really dawned on me. That was the beginning of the downward spiral for Wes. His short violent outburst in Release shows that he's learned how to tap into that violence at will, and his entire Dark Arc was about him learning to control that darkness. Was this obvious to everyone, or am I the only one that made that connection?
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Post by Wyndam on May 16, 2008 18:44:55 GMT -5
The best character development has to be Wesley Wyndam Pryce by far... What that character goes through simply cannot be described. I was just watching the Faith arc in season 4 a few days ago, and during Release I remember sitting with my jaw on the floor when Wes shanks the junkie in the backroom at the demon bar, screams at Faith to 'SHUT UP' and twists the knife painfully. I hadn't seen this in a while and it got me thinking about Wes in general. then after I watched Orpheus, the part where Wes and Willow talk about their darkness, Wes says "I saw a darkness in me" or something to that effect. This made the ending of Billy click for me, and I realized that Billy's blood made Wes tap into something primordial that he hadn't know existed. I never liked the ending to that episode, with Wes crying behind the apartment door, I found it an unneccesarily down note for the episode, but now the significance of that episode really dawned on me. That was the beginning of the downward spiral for Wes. His short violent outburst in Release shows that he's learned how to tap into that violence at will, and his entire Dark Arc was about him learning to control that darkness. Was this obvious to everyone, or am I the only one that made that connection? You're not the only one. Although personally I think Wesley's descent into darkness started much earlier, when Faith first tortured him in Season 1. There are a lot of events that lead to Wesley's dark days in Season 4: - Faith torturing him in Season 1- Getting shot in Season 2- Leading Angel Investigations in Season 2 and 3 (I think besides what happened to him at the end of Season 3, this hardened him the most. Or at least allowed him to shed any remaining goofiness he had on Buffy S3 and Angel S1. At first he wasn't very good at it, but by the end of Season 3 he was an excellent leader, and I am glad Angel didn't fight him for his spot as the head honcho after Wesley, Cordy and Gunn let Angel join them again in Season 2). - Events of "Billy" (The final scene is one of my favorite scenes in the show. It really shows how much Wesley despises hurting other people, especially Fred, and I think it makes the events at the end of Season 3 much more heartbreaking) - Stealing Connor/Getting his throat slit/Getting abandoned by Angel and Co. (This is what finally sends Wesley over the edge, and its understandable. Fred and Gunn never should have abandoned Wesley. I can understand why Angel did what he did, but Angel eventually came to terms with what Wes did. Fred and Gunn should have still been there for him, because Wesley was only doing what he felt was right.) Artiswar, I also really like your thoughts on how Wesley can tap into that darkness at will, which is just about the most perfect way you can describe Wesley in Season 4. Even at the beginning of the season when he is dealing with Justine and threatens to take away her bucket. They way he says it: he doesn't blink, doesn't move, doesn't flinch, just really chilling. Even way back in Season 3 of Buffy, Wesley showed some interesting sides. Even though he was a total goofball, spaz, and unexperienced, he was still willing to go against the grain and do whatever he felt was right. For instance, when he was against the trade of Willow for the Books of Ascension. I understand that the Scoobies valued Willow's well being over the Mayor's Ascension, but Wesley was completely right in that situation. I think that was when I fell in love with the character. So I guess what I am saying is that yeah, I think Wesley went through the most character development. His story is really incredible, and Alexis Denisof's acting was brilliant from beginning to end. |
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artiswar
Novice Witch
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Post by artiswar on May 16, 2008 21:41:35 GMT -5
I agree that Wesley's descent into darkness started much earlier, but I really feel that Billy was when this darkness truly crystalized. At that point, Wes saw what it can do to a person and the extent of it, and from that point on Wes was never ever the same. Alexis Denisof is an insanely talented actor, I hate to give him this much credit but I think he's far and away the best actor Joss has ever hired. Personally, I don't know how I'd feel seeing Alexis playing a different character in a different movie or series, I would not be able to dissasociate him from Wesley. He's THAT good.
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Post by Wyndam on May 16, 2008 22:06:29 GMT -5
I agree that Wesley's descent into darkness started much earlier, but I really feel that Billy was when this darkness truly crystalized. At that point, Wes saw what it can do to a person and the extent of it, and from that point on Wes was never ever the same. I agree with you there. Makes me want to go and watch that episode!  Alexis Denisof is an insanely talented actor, I hate to give him this much credit but I think he's far and away the best actor Joss has ever hired. Personally, I don't know how I'd feel seeing Alexis playing a different character in a different movie or series, I would not be able to dissasociate him from Wesley. He's THAT good. Also agree with you here too. Alexis Denisof is easily my favorite actor. I've never witnessed more talent on screen than his. As for being able to disassociate him from Wesley, did you ever see his 3 episode stint on How I Met Your Mother? The first episode he appeared in...I wasn't sure what to make of him. It was just so weird seeing him play someone other than Wesley. After that first episode though, I really got into his character, because he was just so funny. I really want to see him get some good work again. I was hoping he would land a role on Dollhouse, especially since he and Joss are apparently good friends (I read that Joss sees Alexis, Alyson, and Amy on a regular basis), but maybe he can grab a recurring role on it one day, or eventually join the cast? Who knows. He's just too talented to not be working! |
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artiswar
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Post by artiswar on May 16, 2008 22:57:35 GMT -5
I haven't actually, I've never watched How I Met Your Mother. Is it any good? I've heard mixed things about it.
I would love to see Alexis on Dollhouse, I'm surprised Joss hasn't been banging down his door yet... I wouldn't mind seeing him in another show as long as it was a joss show =) Then I'd be all over that.
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Post by Wyndam on May 16, 2008 23:14:50 GMT -5
I haven't actually, I've never watched How I Met Your Mother. Is it any good? I've heard mixed things about it. I enjoy it. I understand sitcoms aren't really everyone's thing, but I have really enjoyed watching it. I originally started watching it because I heard Alexis was in it, as well as Alyson Hannigan (duh), and some other Whedonverse alums make guests appearances as well (Amy Acker, Morena Baccarin, Tom Lenk, Harry Groener). Amy and Alexis were both in an episode together which I thought was funny, although they didn't have any scenes with each other. |
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artiswar
Novice Witch
Cool... what's a rogue demon??[Mo0:0]
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Post by artiswar on May 16, 2008 23:23:29 GMT -5
Wow, that's an enticing list of guest stars... i'll check it out when I have the chance, do I have to wait long for those appearances?
I originally got into Veronica Mars because of hearing about the juicy guest stars like Kevin Smith, Charisma Carpenter, and The Man Himself: Jossy Whedon.
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Post by Wyndam on May 16, 2008 23:28:34 GMT -5
Actually I think nearly all of the Whedonverse guest stars are all in Season 1, near the end if I am remembering correctly.
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Post by Emmie on May 17, 2008 1:45:22 GMT -5
I'm enjoying this 'Wyndam & Artiswar' thread |
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ded1
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Post by ded1 on May 17, 2008 8:41:56 GMT -5
Who is Morena Baccarin? The name sounds familiar,but can't picture her face
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alycat7
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I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
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Post by alycat7 on May 17, 2008 8:51:26 GMT -5
Who is Morena Baccarin? The name sounds familiar,but can't picture her face Inara from Firefly. |
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ded1
Rogue Demon Hunter
The Zombie Lord
BRAINS!!![Mo0:8]
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Post by ded1 on May 17, 2008 10:28:14 GMT -5
Who is Morena Baccarin? The name sounds familiar,but can't picture her face Inara from Firefly. Thanx.I really didn't get into Firefly.I've seen random episodes(and only a few of them) |
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alycat7
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
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Post by alycat7 on May 17, 2008 14:03:57 GMT -5
Thanx.I really didn't get into Firefly.I've seen random episodes(and only a few of them) I wasnt into it that much at first, but after i saw the movie, i started to like the show as well. |
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Post by buffyfan21 on May 17, 2008 17:58:56 GMT -5
This is one of the many things I have always admired about Joss' shows, the character development. All of his characters progress in a way that is true to real life. In my opinion, this kind of progression is something rarely seen on television, until Joss came along.
I think one of the characters that arguably deserves mentioning as far as character progression is Cordelia. Over the years, first on Buffy, and then Angel, she really grew and evolved as a character. So much so, that by the end of Angel, she hardly resembled the valley girl we knew from Sunnydale. Her journey over the years was really wonderful to watch.
This kind of character development just makes all of Joss' characters so relatable and believable.
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Post by charlesgunn on May 19, 2008 4:26:47 GMT -5
Wesley and Cordelia have some incredible progression over the season. Even though he's one of the least popular characters, I've always enjoyed Gunn over the series.
Season 1 - Strong leader of vamp and demon hunters. The loss of his sister has always affected him over the seasons (the start of his development) but the trust and respect he gave to Angle change him in so many ways. He began to view demons in a different light.
Season 2 – He started to become a full fledged member of Angel Investigations. He gave up his leader role and became part of team as well as Angel’s mission. His appreciation of Cordelia and Wesley began to increase after Angel left on his own vendetta. The death of one of his former crewmembers pushed him even further towards Angel’s mission.
Season 3 – Full fledged member of Angel Investigations. Love triangle with Wesley and Fred. He also began to see that there are good, productive demons instead of seeing them as inherently evil. (That Old Gang of Mine) Also began to see purpose in his life which at the time was the mission but more importantly his love for Fred (Double or Nothing)
Season 4 – Not much progression here (other more vital things happening in the season led to his character taking a step back) except the end of his relationship with Fred.
Season 5 – Huge character development over the season as becomes more than the muscle of the group. He becomes more vital to the group with his knowledge of the law. (Human and demon) He is the reason for Fred becoming Illyria and learns that there are consequences in every decision you make. He sacrifices his life for the mission which leads him to what he becomes in After the Fall.
After the Fall – From human to a blood sucking fiend. He hates what he has become but still can’t control his nature. He wants to be a hero but he still has vampire instincts. He outright blames Angel for his condition. He takes responsibility for bringing Team Angel back together through a series of events.
I can’t wait to find out who sired him and to see what his fate will be in the last few issues. He, similar to Cordy, Wes, Angel, Fred, and a lot of the characters on the show, has developed from the beginning to become a more multi-dimensional character.
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Post by henzINNIT on May 19, 2008 10:27:48 GMT -5
I'm a huge fan of Gunn, especially his development in season 5.
I think Wesley is the best developed character from the Buffy-verse by a long long stretch.
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artiswar
Novice Witch
Cool... what's a rogue demon??[Mo0:0]
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Post by artiswar on May 19, 2008 13:49:53 GMT -5
In your season 4 snippet, you missed the fact that in the episode Players, Gwen shows Gunn that he's more than just the muscle, he's got a good heart and brains too.
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Post by charlesgunn on May 19, 2008 17:09:35 GMT -5
In your season 4 snippet, you missed the fact that in the episode Players, Gwen shows Gunn that he's more than just the muscle, he's got a good heart and brains too.
I knew I forgot something, thanks for catching that. Gwen and Gunn had an incredible dynamic which I hope is used in the comics. It would be interesting to see what Gwen thinks about Gunn as a vampire.
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Post by Wyndam on May 19, 2008 18:42:37 GMT -5
Gunn had a really great character arc over the course of the show. I really enjoyed watching him in Season 5; just a lot of really great moments.
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