|
|
Post by fedaykin on Jul 15, 2008 0:09:22 GMT -5
Does it bug anyone else that *every* single relationship in the Buffy 'verse ends in disaster (usually with one of the people dying)? It's really at the point that there's really no reason in writing or reading any relationships in the 'verse (seriously, I ignore any relationship stuff in the comics -- there's no point). You know the outcome of every single one. Of course, this seems to be a particular issue of Joss', and it really has started to bug me.
Don't get me wrong, I loved some of these style story lines (e.g. the original Buffy and Angel arc). But really, it stopped being dramatically effective several dozen (ok, I exaggerate, heh) disasters ago. And now it only really pisses me off. It seems lazy and cheap -- especially to the extremely well executed arcs like the aforementioned Buffy/Angel romance. There are a lot of other ways to create drama in a relationship than to kill one of the people.
Anyone else feel this way? It is good writing. Is it lazy, annoying an cheap. Am I a donkey's butt? heh
|
|
Smashed
Junior Vampire Slayer
[Mo0:3]
Posts: 908
|
Post by Smashed on Jul 15, 2008 2:00:22 GMT -5
Yeah, according to Joss whenever a couple becomes happy, one person in the relationship must die. I call it "The Jenny Effect".
It's happened too many times.
Including but not limitied to:
Giles and Jenny.
Renee and Xander.
Tara and Willow.
Wesley and Fred.
Cordelia and Angel.
Joyce and the guy in "I was made to love you".
|
|
alycat7
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
Posts: 752
|
Post by alycat7 on Jul 15, 2008 8:08:37 GMT -5
I agree with you. After Wolves At The Gate part 4, I've decided to ignore anyone who comes into the scoobies lives now. They're only get killed or leave.
|
|
|
|
Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 15, 2008 9:34:50 GMT -5
Well, in real life, doesn't most relationship end one way or another? It's no wonder that it happens in the Buffyverse too. Sure, people are more likely to die, turn evil or do mindspells to leave/chase their loved ones away, but that's life on the Hellmouth/in LA/in battle. Instead of being given time to get bored with each other, they're killed of.
Sure, I was depressed for a while, knowing that love wasn't a priority in Joss mind, but I've learned to accept it. After all, perfect long lasting love would be a bit unrealistic.
|
|
|
|
Post by henzINNIT on Jul 15, 2008 9:52:28 GMT -5
I agree. Didn't get to me until Xander and Anya broke up, but it's quite distracting and annoying.
|
|
Slayer489
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Why do I feel like this? Why do I let Spike do those things to me?" - Buffy 'Dead Things'[Mo0:0]
Posts: 784
|
Post by Slayer489 on Jul 15, 2008 13:09:03 GMT -5
It doesn't bug me because at that age, relationships don't usually last forever and they live with the constant struggle of demons and the like so it's realistic that they end badly. The only relationship to survive the destruction of Sunnydale was Willow and Kennedy's by the way.
|
|
El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
|
Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jul 15, 2008 16:09:40 GMT -5
I'm still  about Xander & Anya. Especially since their break-up didn't really seem to lead to any great, meaningful storylines for either of them as a result of it. Buffy & Satsu's breakup was probably the best, happiest resolution (so far, at least, pending further developments) that any couple in the Jossverse has gotten yet, which speaks volumes about how badly things have worked out for everyone else on the shows/comics. Simon & Kaylee sort of got a happy ending... only because that story ended almost as soon as their relationship was beginning. If the Serenifly story ever continues, I wouldn't bank too heavily on them staying together...  |
|
|
|
Post by fedaykin on Jul 15, 2008 22:03:34 GMT -5
Well, in real life, doesn't most relationship end one way or another? It's no wonder that it happens in the Buffyverse too. Sure, people are more likely to die, turn evil or do mindspells to leave/chase their loved ones away, but that's life on the Hellmouth/in LA/in battle. Instead of being given time to get bored with each other, they're killed of. Sure, I was depressed for a while, knowing that love wasn't a priority in Joss mind, but I've learned to accept it. After all, perfect long lasting love would be a bit unrealistic. See I agree it'd be unrealistic (especially given the setting) if a most relationships didn't end (with a significant portion ending badly). However, the pendulum has swung waaaay wide. In over 10 years worth of material, no relationship has lasted, even among the more secondary characters. That strains credibility in a show that otherwise does very well developing its characters |
|
deathisyourgift
Ensouled Vampire
to read makes our speaking English good!
Timothy Dalton should win an Oscar and beat Sean Connery over the head with it!!-Andrew[Mo0:37]
Posts: 1,166
|
Post by deathisyourgift on Jul 18, 2008 22:04:49 GMT -5
It is disappointing as a viewer/lover of the characters, but Joss made this fact clear in S1, "I Robot, You Jane":
Buffy: Hey, did you forget? The one boy I've had the hots for since I've moved here turned out to be a vampire.
Xander: Right, and the teacher I had a crush on? Giant praying mantis?
Willow: That's true.
Xander: Yeah, that's life on the Hellmouth.
Buffy: Let's face it: none of us are ever gonna have a happy, normal relationship.
Xander: We're doomed!
Then their laughter slowly turns into disappointing realization that this sucks haha...Joss is a friggin' genius!! Sorry, fangirl moment..
|
|
commandercool
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
DON'T PANIC![Mo0:37]
Posts: 744
|
Post by commandercool on Jul 20, 2008 14:29:07 GMT -5
Eh... I stopped caring and started expecting it a long time ago. It's pretty safe to assume that NO ONE will EVER be happy in the Jossverse.
|
|
artiswar
Novice Witch
Cool... what's a rogue demon??[Mo0:0]
Posts: 260
|
Post by artiswar on Jul 20, 2008 14:46:59 GMT -5
I'm glad this thread is here because just last night as I was watching the finale of Dr. Horrible, I had been naive to assume that due to the fluffy presentation, that there would be some sort of tongue-in-cheek fluffy resolution. Boy, you'd think after so many years of Joss obsession, I'd have this plain truth drilled into my skull by now: love just sucks. At least according to Joss.
As for why Joss does this, well, there are 2 main factors which I'm sure most people know by now.
1) tagedy is engrossing to watch and it causes lots of drama, why do you think Shakespeare was so popular in the Elizabethan times.
2) Happy relationships don't make good TV. But I think there is a decent balance of relationship problems and good times. Just look at Willow and Tara, Wash and Zoe, Xander and Anya, etc.
Another contributer to the Doomed Love theme I think stems from a quote Buffy says, which I think is a reflection of Joss himself: "A part of me believes that love should be painful. After all, isn't pain where the passion comes from?"
I think Joss believes this, at least when it comes to television. I agree with him to an extent. While many people say couples being broken apart by death is getting old, I have to admit that when it happens I don't groan and roll my eyes, I in fact gasp and get pretty upset, and in turn get more immersed in the story. Nobody is safe in the Jossverse, and anyone can die at any point. I'm not going to condemn Joss for something that drew me to him in the first place.
-edit-
perhaps someone will ask Felicia Day what she thinks about being Joss' latest victim of love, and if she thinks it's getting redundant when she comes to chat on slayalive.
|
|
Whedon Fan
Ensouled Vampire
Joss Is Boss
Banner & Avatar Made By CBG[Mo0:3][Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,312
|
Post by Whedon Fan on Jul 20, 2008 14:53:20 GMT -5
Not annoying but I am kind of hoping for a happy relation ship...just one and then he can kill who ever he wants I was so cheering for Xander and Anya on the series but then that went to hell. I mean keep the entire HELLS BELLS episode the same but when Anya tells him it was all fake what the demon showed him Buffy/Willow could ahve had a talk with him or Anya and it ends with Xander walking down the isle excited about spending the rest of his life with Anya. Zoe and Wash even had marriage troubles in Firefly...he later ***SPOLIERS*** killed Wash in the end Oh well it wouldn't be a Joss show if they all had happy ending and to be honest the show would not be half as good if it had happy endings but I still say that the Xander and Anya thing was a mistake...still kill Anya though in chosen but with them being married her death would have been more real...if that makes sense.  |
|
|
|
Post by xmadxscientistx on Jul 20, 2008 18:39:15 GMT -5
It's interesting that Buffy, in her mid twenties, has no married friends.
|
|
alycat7
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
Posts: 752
|
Post by alycat7 on Jul 20, 2008 21:07:37 GMT -5
I just hope Willow and Kennedy last a long time. I'd hate to see anything happen to either one of them.
|
|
commandercool
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
DON'T PANIC![Mo0:37]
Posts: 744
|
Post by commandercool on Jul 20, 2008 21:24:15 GMT -5
I just hope Willow and Kennedy last a long time. I'd hate to see anything happen to either one of them. Me too. I like them, but I'm sure they'll get f***ed over in due time. |
|
alycat7
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
Posts: 752
|
Post by alycat7 on Jul 21, 2008 0:06:54 GMT -5
If they are gonna eventually get screwed over, just don't kill Kennedy. Joss can make them break up, but not in the usual Joss fashion.
|
|
|
|
Post by hitnrun017 on Jul 21, 2008 0:15:43 GMT -5
I have a feeling Time of Your Life is going to be the end of Kennedy and Willow, just seems like something big is going to happen between them. Kennedy knows nothing about Saga Vasuki, and she was pushing it in Part 1. Plus, now we have a cover with Dark Willow, we know Kennedy didn't like that in Get it Done. I really hope Joss stays away from killing the happy couples for awhile, especially in Dollhouse. It was shocking for awhile, but now, in my opinion, it's just annoying and predictible. It's happened way too many times now for me to care. Joss is turning it into a big cliche. Simon & Kaylee sort of got a happy ending... only because that story ended almost as soon as their relationship was beginning. If the Serenifly story ever continues, I wouldn't bank too heavily on them staying together... If we EVER get a sequel, Kaylee is getting it, no doubt in my mind. |
|
|
|
Post by xmadxscientistx on Jul 21, 2008 1:07:39 GMT -5
Is death the only thing that can make us feel?
|
|
alycat7
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
Posts: 752
|
Post by alycat7 on Jul 21, 2008 20:59:01 GMT -5
Is death the only thing that can make us feel? Someone should ask Joss that question. |
|
brandonr
Potential Slayer
"That's mine." "Well you're about to get it back."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 168
|
Post by brandonr on Jul 22, 2008 16:58:52 GMT -5
This is definitely up there on the list of gripes that I have with Joss. I don't mind that he kills characters, but could he just not do it as much as he has been? I mean, at this point, I'm expecting someone significant to die by episode 7 of Dollhouse.
The only thing that keeps Joss' deaths fresh is WHEN he kills the people. He killed Renee much sooner than I thought he would--I was expecting Xander and Renee to have a shag to cement their relationship even more, thus making it hurt even more for us and Xander when she dies.
One of my favorite relationship resolutions of the Buffyverse is Buffy and Riley's, because Riley realized that Buffy didn't love him, made his decision, and left. Then after Buffy had a good talkin' to by Xander, she realized she was being a complete dolt in letting him go, and ran after him only to arrive just miliseconds too late to catch him.
Death, schmeath. THAT relationship was drama.
|
|
