ANGEL/BUFFY Continuity errors

[ambersknight]

There is no indication on the show that jack is a zombie, rather than someone resurrected fully. The only indication, if it could be called that, is the bullet hole scar. As for his friends, they didn't become rotten due to the spell, it was due to them lying in the ground for moths and the natural deterioration that happens, but other than that their personalities eem intact 9as jack makes no mention of any change). As such it seems to me that the spell works fine at resurrection.

Not sure why you don't get the second quotation you highlight. Can you tell me what it is about it you don't get? I'm afraid short of that any answer I might give may not be on point to your confusion.

[wenxina]

Hey, Buffy's corpse was partially rotted too (surprising, given the amount of embalming corpses go through these days). After Willow's spell worked, you could see her actually regenerating. So Willow's spell is fundamentally different than the one used in "The Zeppo" and coming to think of it, the one that Dawn used.

[Skytteflickan88]

Jun 4, 2009 12:32:52 GMT -5 @ambersknight said:

There is no indication on the show that jack is a zombie, rather than someone resurrected fully. The only indication, if it could be called that, is the bullet hole scar. As for his friends, they didn't become rotten due to the spell, it was due to them lying in the ground for moths and the natural deterioration that happens, but other than that their personalities eem intact 9as jack makes no mention of any change). As such it seems to me that the spell works fine at resurrection.

*I used the term zombie since it's a very vauge term, it doesn't matter what we call them. So okay, he's not a zombie. He's some sort of undead. My point was that Tara wouldn't have been fully ressurected, her body wouldn't be healed, and that might have been why Willow didn't do it.

Then I said "Nah, willow was desperate enough" or something, to show that if she could have, she would have done it.

Not sure why you don't get the second quotation you highlight. Can you tell me what it is about it you don't get? I'm afraid short of that any answer I might give may not be on point to your confusion.

What was it that was true? What reason?

I think I can guess, but since we've already misunderstood each other...

[ambersknight]

Or, and I've argued this on other boards, the writers cocked the season up well and truly with the whole storyline and this is just another glaring omission on their part.

You said the following:

I found another reason that Tara couldn't be raised. In The Zeppo, the stars where in the right place, so even if Willow knew the spell used in The Zeppo, the timing might have been wrong.

My point was that you might be right but as the writers didn't show her trying the spell and it failing (for whatever reason) we can't make that conclusion. Without a logical explanation within the context of the show as to why the spell wouldn't have worked i can only assume that the writers forgot about it (or perhaps more sinisterly, thought we would forget).

[Skytteflickan88]

Maybe Willow didn't know about that spell?

Even if Xander had told her about it, maybe she couldn't track down the grandfather(was it Jack's grandfather?) to get the spell?

[ambersknight]

AH! But, she didn't know how to de-rat AMy until she asked for just the right spell to pull it off. So it stands to reason that if she had done the same again then the spell used to resurrect Jack or something similar if not better would have been given her.

See why i see this as a real continuity error?

[Skytteflickan88]

Jun 4, 2009 13:22:06 GMT -5 @ambersknight said:

AH! But, she didn't know how to de-rat AMy until she asked for just the right spell to pull it off. So it stands to reason that if she had done the same again then the spell used to resurrect Jack or something similar if not better would have been given her.

See why i see this as a real continuity error?

Maybe she could only ask for a certain kind of spell? Not resurection-spells, just transformation spells?

[ambersknight]

Just feels like an awful fudge to me. I beleived it then and still do now.

[snizapman6294]

Jun 4, 2009 12:58:13 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Hey, Buffy's corpse was partially rotted too (surprising, given the amount of embalming corpses go through these days)

i always thought that they didn't have Buffy embalmed on purpose cuz Willow knew she was gonna revive buffy which would be a little hard to do if she's embalmed, right?

or am i just making that up?

[Skytteflickan88]

That could be it. Or it could be that they didn't know how to embalme her and it's not like they could send her to the morgue.

[ambersknight]

Actually, between "The Gift" and "Bargaining" there does contain one of the great errors, although I'm not quite sure if its an actual continuity error or just a complete oversight by the writers.

If the Scoobies were trying to keep the death of Buffy secret, why did they bury her with a great big headstone that announced the world that she was dead?

[Skytteflickan88]

I guess they had the grave hidden so well they thought it was worth the risk. They didn't want her to be in a unmarked grave.

Maybe a repelling-spell, to keep people away?

You know, all the fantasy-magic books I've read really helps when fanwanking.

[ambersknight]

That's a sretch. there isn't much to really commend about season 6 other than the musical and the dark tone (okay the performances were good but from my POV they had to be) but for me one of the worst offenders is the sheer lapse of logic, continuity whatever you want to call it.

Getting the storyline where they wanted it to go was all that seemed to be on their minds, to hell with canon.

Guess thats why when i hear people worried about non-canon Buffy I always smile.

[Paul]

First of all, ambersknight, I really disagree with your views on season six and Tara's death. I've seen you criticising that storyline in a couple of threads and all I can say is I strongly disagree. I love that season.

As for the supposed continuity error when it comes to resurrections, I see no problem. It's established in the Buffyverse that you can bring people back from a natural death, but they will come back "wrong", in an undead state. The spell in "The Zeppo" brought people back to life, but their bodies were still physically dead. Jack O'Toole may not have been decomposed, but I'm willing to bet he wasn't fully "alive" and probably wouldn't age or function like a living person would. Another similar example would be Joyce; Dawn resurrects her in "Forever" and it's strongly implied that she came back as a zombie before Dawn undid the spell. None of this is explicit, but it can be inferred from what we did see.

Willow's spell was more complex. She called upon Osirus to bring people fully back to life, both in body and spirit. This was only possible because Buffy died a mystical death. Tara died a natural death, so the same spell wasn't possible; she couldn't be brought back properly in the same way Buffy was. She could have been brought back in the same way Jack was, but Willow presumably didn't want to bring her lover back in such an unnatural form. It's safe to assume both Willow and Tara studied resurrection spells in-depth between seasons 5 and 6, and knew what could happen if you used the wrong spell.

As for Buffy's tombstone; they wanted to give their friend a proper burial, that's all. Sure, some demons could have seen it, but I guess they thought Buffy was worth the risk. Remember, only four of the Scoobies were planning the resurrection. Giles, Dawn, and Spike assumed Buffy was gone forever, so it's not they could just keep her in the freezer until "Bargaining". There's also the chance Willow never even decided to resurrect Buffy until after she was already buried.

[gumgnome]

I agree with ambersknight on this continuity error. Even within The Zeppo, the whole stars things doesn't really hold (unless Jack doesn't really like his friends all that much).
First we see Bob get resurrected and Jack says he had to wait for the stars to be in alignment. Then he raises all his other mates. So far so logical.
Then when Jack shows his wounds, he says he was shot in a drive-by three weeks ago and his granpappy raised him immediately. Either the stars were in alignment that night as well and Jack just didn't bother to raise everyone else, or he was raised without the stars being in alignment.
I would add that based on how decomposed some of his buddies are, there's no possibility that they have all been killed within the last three weeks either. So yes, i think that even within the ep, there is definite lack of continuity.
But i love The Zeppo, so i'm gonna let it slide.

As for the other point raised, I don't think that Jack & Co. act very much like zombies in the strictest sense (like the ones in Dead Man's Party for example) so also wonder why Tara couldn't have been raised. Of course, the people do come back as they were killed, so she'd always have an unpleasant exit wound in her chest....

[Paul]

Jun 4, 2009 17:21:28 GMT -5 gumgnome said:

I agree with ambersknight on this continuity error. Even within The Zeppo, the whole stars things doesn't really hold (unless Jack doesn't really like his friends all that much).
First we see Bob get resurrected and Jack says he had to wait for the stars to be in alignment. Then he raises all his other mates. So far so logical.
Then when Jack shows his wounds, he says he was shot in a drive-by three weeks ago and his granpappy raised him immediately. Either the stars were in alignment that night as well and Jack just didn't bother to raise everyone else, or he was raised without the stars being in alignment.
I would add that based on how decomposed some of his buddies are, there's no possibility that they have all been killed within the last three weeks either. So yes, i think that even within the ep, there is definite lack of continuity.
But i love The Zeppo, so i'm gonna let it slide.

As for the other point raised, I don't think that Jack & Co. act very much like zombies in the strictest sense (like the ones in Dead Man's Party for example) so also wonder why Tara couldn't have been raised. Of course, the people do come back as they were killed, so she'd always have an unpleasant exit wound in her chest....

I still don't see an error. Maybe Jack didn't resurrect his friends the same night he was killed because a) he didn't know about magic until his grandfather used it on him, and b) it just didn't occur to him until later on (he's not the brightest spark, and in all fairness, he had just died).

Jack's gang are zombies physically, if not personality-wise. If Tara had been resurrected using the same spell, she would have been a walking corpse, much like Owen was in Torchwood season two. Not really the kind of fate Willow would want to subject Tara to.

[wenxina]

Jun 4, 2009 14:13:09 GMT -5 snizapman6294 said:

Jun 4, 2009 12:58:13 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Hey, Buffy's corpse was partially rotted too (surprising, given the amount of embalming corpses go through these days)

i always thought that they didn't have Buffy embalmed on purpose cuz Willow knew she was gonna revive buffy which would be a little hard to do if she's embalmed, right?

or am i just making that up?

Embalming doesn't specifically refer to wrapping a corpse up in bandages like a mummy. It's the treatment of a corpse, so that it doesn't completely decompose right away, usually giving family and friends enough time to have a proper funeral service.

Click for the Wiki article.

[snizapman6294]

when in doubt... wikipedia that shit.

oh well then i was making it up...

[Skeptic]

Sorry to bust in the convo but I just wanted to say that Buffy's injury in the Big Final Battle just was way too bad to survive, even for a slayer, unless there was some major medical attention given really quickly.

I mean, look at Faith: the stab wound nearly did her in (that wound was DEEP, too) but it was the head trauma from the fall PLUS the blood loss/penetrating wound that got her stuck in the coma for months. And she survived only because someone found her, and rushed her to the hospital. Slayers are resilient and heal well, but they are human, and they have limits.

But, back in Season 5, Buffy's out on routine patrol and gets a little cocky with her abilities, and ends up getting stabbed with her own stake. This is cleaned up basically with home first-aid stuff and although a bit weak on that side, Buffy's back in business later.

But in reality, the crazy big sword slashing through her where it did would have created massive blood loss, major organ damage, and life-threatening shock. How she went on to still kick some ass then run across rooftops and jump 30 feet onto the roof of a moving bus, I'll never know. Just 'cos Joss wanted her to.

Season Eight notwithstanding, I always picture Buffy collapsing on the highway outside the Pit, then waking up a week later or something, after major touch-and-go surgery and coma.

Oh, and I bet it left a scar, too. Slayers scar, don't they? She's been stabbed a lot, surely there are scars from the worst ones. Or, maybe that's a benefit of the slayer healing thing.

That is all. Carry on.

[snizapman6294]

Series finale rules are different from real rules... people could be stabbed in the face and still live. i mean about the scar: buffy still had her scar from Angel's bite (Season 3) in season 4 when she met parker, so in theory, she has a scar.