Why wouldnt Buffy kill Ben but she killed Angel?

[Nicholas]

I was thinking about how Buffy refused to kill an innocent such as Ben, even though it meant avoiding horrible actions later whereas she was able to make the choice to kill Angel,, after he recieved his soul and was deemed innocent.

[Skytteflickan88]

I don't agree with her choice to let Ben live, but there's a difference between saving the entire world from endless torment and from killing a guy who might later on become a problem again.

With Angel, there was no time to make descision. It was now or never. I think with Ben, Buffy didn't want to make that descision right then. Ben ways lying there, defeated, and her friends needed her help. Although I doubt that later on, had she not died and had to face what to do with Ben (let's pretend Giles didn't kill him), she would probably let him leave, if she could make sure that Glory was harmless (so I guess she would have to end him anyway).

[Spiked]

If Buffy hadn't killed Angel right then and there, the world would immediately be sucked into hell. The situation didn't seem as dire in that very moment with Ben (after all, she didn't know the portal was about to open up). Plus, Angel had lived for hundreds of years and was supposed to be dead while Ben was just a regular twenty-something human guy who deserved a chance to live his life. I don't really think it's right to compare their rights to live.

[Skytteflickan88]

Feb 25, 2009 16:23:30 GMT -5 Spiked said:

Plus, Angel had lived for hundreds of years and was supposed to be dead while Ben was just a regular twenty-something human guy who deserved a chance to live his life. I don't really think it's right to compare their rights to live.

But on the other hand, the only bad thing Angel had done while alive and un-alive(souled) was to throw dead rats around, while Ben had a evil Godess inside him and he didn't do anything about it and later on lead Dawn to her death.

Suicide anyone?

[Whedon Fan]

Mainly because Ben was an "innocent" and Angel was a vampire who had slaughtered countless victims around Sunnydale and there was a portal opening getting ready to swallow the entire world into hell if she didn't stab him. BUT if Bufyf didn't want to kill Ben they should have atleast drugged him or re-strained him so that he couldn't run away or tunr into Glory. Rememeber they had that "forgetting spell" so they never really knew it was Ben that was Glory until it was too late. Glory had already snatched Dawn. Giles killing Ben was one of his best/darkets moments and I'm glad it happened that was

BEN: She could have killed me

GILES: No she couldn't...she's a hero you see. She's not like us

BEN: Us?

*Que in Ripper....and suffocate*

Excellant!

[henzINNIT]

Buffy's choices in Becoming:

1.) Kill Angel and save the world.

2.) Have everyone die so she wouldn't have to kill Angel.


Buffy's choices in Season 5/The Gift:

1.) Kill Ben to destroy Glory

2.) Find another way to save the day.

Buffy was never in a position in Season 5 where killing Ben would actively save the world. If she'd tracked him down soon enough before the ritual and killed him she may have stopped a possible threat to the world, and after she beats Glory in the Gift it's unlikely Ben would have posed a threat anyway.

[wenxina]

Feb 26, 2009 7:40:30 GMT -5 Whedon Fan said:

BUT if Bufyf didn't want to kill Ben they should have atleast drugged him or re-strained him so that he couldn't run away or tunr into Glory.

Drugging Ben would probably make it even easier for Glory to pop back. Ben was actively fighting her towards the end. And I can't remember for sure, but I'm pretty sure that the memory mojo wasn't working anymore by the time of "The Gift". Buffy knew exactly who she was talking to when she warned Ben that she would kill Glory if she even popped her head near her loved ones again. And Giles knew that Ben and Glory shared the same body, hence the decision to suffocate Ben to death.

[Angelsgirl]

The memory mojo thing had definitely worn off by "The Gift" and the magic that was keeping Glory's personality and Ben's personality seperate was also fading, hence why Glory started feeling feelings and Ben started making some questionable decisions. Lets not forget that he did end up taking Dawn back to the tower...not very innocent really, but obviously slightly tainted by the evil thoughts of Glory. Buffy, at the time, could never kill an "innocent" person, although I'm not sure how she would react in the same situation now....thats one to think about. :broody:

One thing that has always bothered me is did Buffy find out that Giles killed Ben? Or does she still think that he ran off into the sunset? I don't mind the fact that Giles killed him, it shows a great dark side to Giles' character, proving that Ripper is still buried within his sub-conscious.

[Nicholas]

I was just getting ready to bring that same thing up. Buffy may have warned Ben, who was partly thinking with Glory's mind at the moment, that if she ever returned Buffy would kill her, but like Giles said, she knew that Glory would eventually re-emerge and make Buffy pay for what she did to her, which is why Giles killed him. However, this poses a huge question on why Buffy never asked what happened with Ben or whether or not she thinks that Glory is out there plotting her revenge.

[zoelee]

I agree with most points.
Buffy had a split second to save the world with Angel, but with Glory and Ben she had a bit of time. U could look at it as does she save Dawn or kill Ben.
Ben was human not a demon, as it has been said many time's Slayers dont kill human's. I dont think buffy had it in her to do so. But i think if it had been glory she would have wither ben was inside her or not, glory was the demon on the outside.
I also think that buffy knew that if she didnt kill ben it would be her choice to save the world by dying her self to save it.

[Whedon Fan]

No the gang don't find out that Giles killed Ben. There is an un-used scene from season 7 where he does tell her. The same episode where Giles distracts Buffy so that Robin can try and kill Spike. Sorry I can't remember the name of the episode. Bu basically Giles is talking to Buffy about making the hard descions and the ones she can't make and why Spike is a threat. Buffy says that she can make hard descions and Giles brings up the Ben incident and says that he did what he had to do becasue she couldn't. I'm sure this is all on the commentary for the episode...eh 'Lies My Paerents Told Me', is that it?

[Mathieu]

Feb 26, 2009 19:27:57 GMT -5 Whedon Fan said:

No the gang don't find out that Giles killed Ben. There is an un-used scene from season 7 where he does tell her. The same episode where Giles distracts Buffy so that Robin can try and kill Spike. Sorry I can't remember the name of the episode. Bu basically Giles is talking to Buffy about making the hard descions and the ones she can't make and why Spike is a threat. Buffy says that she can make hard descions and Giles brings up the Ben incident and says that he did what he had to do becasue she couldn't. I'm sure this is all on the commentary for the episode...eh 'Lies My Paerents Told Me', is that it?

Oh really??? Never knew about that! I wish they had kept that scene, it would have been a good thing to have Buffy find out two years later. I like when secrets come out at some point later on the show. It was so good when Buffy learned about Xander's betrayal (Season 2) in Selfless (S7).

[Nicholas]

My hope is that maybe it will be addressed when Faith and Giles finally meet up with Buffy again soon in Season 8. I felt that the fact that such a thing that happened in Season 2 was addressed so many years later was a VERY good idea, and it was something that needed to be brought up. I dont like things that are left in the open when they clearly should be addressed such as the thing with Giles killing Ben.

[Morgan]

Feb 26, 2009 22:57:46 GMT -5 Nicholas said:

My hope is that maybe it will be addressed when Faith and Giles finally meet up with Buffy again soon in Season 8. I felt that the fact that such a thing that happened in Season 2 was addressed so many years later was a VERY good idea, and it was something that needed to be brought up. I dont like things that are left in the open when they clearly should be addressed such as the thing with Giles killing Ben.

This is something that definitely needs to be addressed, but I get the feeling that we'll see a very high-handed Buffy when it finally is discussed. It makes me cringe just thinking about how it will play out. It's one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of Buffy as a character & I typically watch the show & read Season 8 for all the other characters.

Buffy even mentioned that she may have done things differently concerning her sacrifice to save Dawn's life, so I'm wondering if Buffy will be able to understand the reasoning behind Giles killing Ben?

[Nicholas]

I think she will understand it, but will be pissed that he didnt tell her. He took a human life and thats something very poweful, but for him to not tell her?

Shes already pissed at him for keeping secrets.

[Greer]

I think it would be very interesting to see Buffy's reaction regarding Giles killing Ben. I very much so understand why Giles had to kill him, the wrath that Glory could have taken out on the whole world would've been too much for anyone to resist. Now that her key is gone, she has nothing else left in this world, so it would be death and destruction for everyone she met.

People criticize Ben at times for being selfish for wanting to live, but I don't fault him for that. Your life was taken away from you, with everything that you've worked so hard for, and now you found a way to possibly undo it? Who wouldn't want to not die in that situation? I wish he would've let Dawn go, but there's that pesky human weakness working again.

I know that somewhere in Buffy's mind she knew that for the good of humanity, she should've killed Ben. It's good that Giles did it, to take away all the guilt, pain, etc., because do you remember what Buffy was like when she was just involved with Faith killing Deputy Mayor Finch? She could barely function, and she didn't participate in the actual stabbing. I just believe that Giles was trying to keep maintain her innocence by preventing her killing a human, just like how Cordy was prevented from killing humans in "Billy" in AtS.

Bottom line, Buffy had to go save her sister, and Ben was down for the count at the moment. I think she prioritized correctly, in the moment.

[Saturn 5]

1. Ben was human whilst Angel was a vamp even if he had a soul

2. She killed Angel because it was the only way to save the world, right then, right there. By contrast Ben posed no immediate threat.

3. Buffy didn't know of Ben slipping to the darkside, only Dawn witnessed this, as far as she was concerned he was still the nice doctor who helped them and might not even be aware he was Glory.

4. With the stars out alignment Glory has missed her shot so has no reason to try again and Dawn is safe. In fact we have no idea that with the alignment over that Glory would ever surface again, it's possible she's gone for good.

Of course Giles wasn't going to take the chance Did any of the other scoobies ever know he killed him? Certainly Buffy didn't. Personally I think it was the right decision and if Giles hadn't have done it I think it's perfectly possible that Xander would have.

[Krescan]

Mar 6, 2009 13:23:00 GMT -5 said:

I like your thinking Saturn except for Xander, he might have done it post-Calab, but I doubt beforehand

Have to disagree, Xander could handle the dark stuff by late S2, in my opinion anyway.

And just throwing this out there. Buffy never killed Angel. Obviously by S3E2 we know this but also this:

1. It's been explained to Buffy what happens when Acathla opens up wide. It won't kill vampires.

2. Buffy's been the slayer long enough that she knows perfectly well that a sword to the gut is not the best way to do any dusting.

So, yes she sacrificed Angel to save the world. But at no point did she stop his existence.

Sure it's not an incredibly strong argument but.....Giles killing Ben was so much better than Buffy doing it anyway really.

[Nicholas]

Mar 6, 2009 13:41:31 GMT -5 Krescan said:

Mar 6, 2009 13:23:00 GMT -5 said:

I like your thinking Saturn except for Xander, he might have done it post-Calab, but I doubt beforehand

Have to disagree, Xander could handle the dark stuff by late S2, in my opinion anyway.

And just throwing this out there. Buffy never killed Angel. Obviously by S3E2 we know this but also this:

1. It's been explained to Buffy what happens when Acathla opens up wide. It won't kill vampires.

2. Buffy's been the slayer long enough that she knows perfectly well that a sword to the gut is not the best way to do any dusting.

So, yes she sacrificed Angel to save the world. But at no point did she stop his existence.

Sure it's not an incredibly strong argument but.....Giles killing Ben was so much better than Buffy doing it anyway really.

Thats a very intresting theory! I never thought of that, that she didnt actually KILL Angel. I guess if we have to go by Buffyverse terms, sending someone to Hell is considered death.

[Saturn 5]

Remember, it's Xander who suggests killing Ben in the first place. And to save his beloved Dawn? I think he'd do it in a heartbeat