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Post by kittyfantastico on Feb 8, 2009 6:53:40 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you mean about Angel killing Connor in the end. I haven't seen past Season 3, but no so far they haven't killed each other. But they are fighting as a direct result of Connor being raised away from Angel, and may end up killing each other because of it. That was completely forseeable.
Wes did have other options.
Option 1) Don't believe the prophecy, becuase you know there are lots of people out there messing with you, and you have personal experience in misinterpreting prophecies.
2) Believe the prophecy, but since the prophecy says its inevitable, sneaking off and stealing the baby won't help. This can lead to any number of the next few options.
3) Tell your friends about the prophecy. Maybe tell everyone but Angel, and discuss what to do about it.
4) Tell Angel about the prophecy. He loves his son and knows he might go evil, so he might agree to letting Wes and Cordy, say, go off and raise the baby for awhile until they can figure out what's going on.
5) Call Cordelia and try to get her to have a vision
6) Call Cordelia and ask for advice
7) Call Giles and ask for advice (but I accept that the writers didn't want a crossover, so that's ok I guess...)
8) Warn Angel that Holtz is coming for them and maybe the baby, and tell him you're going to take the baby somewhere to keep it safe for awhile while Angel deals with Holtz
Etc etc etc etc. Stealing the baby without talking to anyone was in no way Wes's only option, and also had a high probability of failure for lots of reasons:
1) He's going to be all by himself, easy prey for people like Holtz and his minions
2) As mentioned above, this seems like a pretty obvious path to a self fulfilling prophecy, because if Angel's kid grows up and Angel doesn't recognize him there's a chance he'll end up killing him by accident.
Now, I agree that Wes was being stupid rather than evil and so maybe deserves forgiveness, but there's no way I'll say that was the right thing for him to do even given what he knew at the time.
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Post by kittyfantastico on Feb 8, 2009 7:01:31 GMT -5
One rationalization that could have helped Wes-- although I didn't see him making it-- was that if Connor makes Angel too happy, that could cause him to turn evil. I actually thought they might go the route where Angel decides he has to send Connor off to grow up somewhere else so that he keeps having enough angst to keep his soul. But no one seemed to bring that up.
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XanderHarris
Potential Slayer
I've been unreasonable, because I've lost all reason.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 125
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Post by XanderHarris on Aug 9, 2009 12:33:33 GMT -5
I'm watching "The Price" right now and I'm seriously upset about the way Cordelia is behaving.
So, she returns from her little vacation with Groo and takes care of Angel - so far, nothing wrong about that.
But the way she talks about Wesley, it's very upsetting. They were close friends for several years, he saved her more than once and what's her thanks? She doesn't even want to listen to his version or his agenda, she even states that she doesn't care.
Fred seems to be the only one of the Gang that really cares. I mean, yeah, no surprise there, Wesley knocked out Lorne, stole Angel's kid and was not the biggest fan of Gunn's and Fred's relationship, but he never did anything to hurt Cordy, yet she abandons him right away and blames him without the slightest idead of what happened.
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Aug 9, 2009 17:40:00 GMT -5
I'm watching "The Price" right now and I'm seriously upset about the way Cordelia is behaving. So, she returns from her little vacation with Groo and takes care of Angel - so far, nothing wrong about that. But the way she talks about Wesley, it's very upsetting. They were close friends for several years, he saved her more than once and what's her thanks? She doesn't even want to listen to his version or his agenda, she even states that she doesn't care. Fred seems to be the only one of the Gang that really cares. I mean, yeah, no surprise there, Wesley knocked out Lorne, stole Angel's kid and was not the biggest fan of Gunn's and Fred's relationship, but he never did anything to hurt Cordy, yet she abandons him right away and blames him without the slightest idead of what happened. That's the only real issue I have with the season's storylines. Cordy should have talked to Wes. kittyfantastico: I have a feeling you're going to really hate Season Four. <_< |
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BuffyisLife
Common Vampire
Willow is a goddess![Mo0:3]
Posts: 83
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Post by BuffyisLife on Aug 9, 2009 19:30:07 GMT -5
That's the best thing about Wes's apparent betrayal. He's doing the right thing, noble and good in a way, but he's stupid to keep quiet. He's only in that position because he's completely alienated from his friends. He can't talk to Angel, Cordy is away, and it's too painful for him to even look at Fred and Gunn. Poor sod. Why couldn't he have talked to Angel about it? Yes, I know the prophecy was about him and Connor, but he told Angel about the prophecy in the first season about him "dieing". Angel would WANT to know about this prophecy that said he would kill his son. He would want to protect Connor and try to figure out what he could do to prevent it. Also, the prophecy was SO general. It just said "The Father Will Kill the Son" it didn't say how, why, when or even where it would happen. His heart was in the right place, but hes actions were incredibly stupid. Had Wes just been honest with Angel and shown him what he found, I seriously doubt any of the events that happened later would have happened. His throat getting cut, Connor being stolen by Holtz, Connor hating Angel, etc none if it had to happen, but Wes was an idiot and instead of working together with his teammates to figure out what to do, he took matters into his own hands and acted like nothing was going on with his supposed friends. I don't blame the rest of Angel Inc for turning there backs on him in the least. |
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gumgnome
Junior Vampire Slayer
Who has got the button?
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Posts: 970
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Post by gumgnome on Aug 10, 2009 5:28:52 GMT -5
That's the best thing about Wes's apparent betrayal. He's doing the right thing, noble and good in a way, but he's stupid to keep quiet. He's only in that position because he's completely alienated from his friends. He can't talk to Angel, Cordy is away, and it's too painful for him to even look at Fred and Gunn. Poor sod. Why couldn't he have talked to Angel about it? Yes, I know the prophecy was about him and Connor, but he told Angel about the prophecy in the first season about him "dieing". Angel would WANT to know about this prophecy that said he would kill his son. He would want to protect Connor and try to figure out what he could do to prevent it. Also, the prophecy was SO general. It just said "The Father Will Kill the Son" it didn't say how, why, when or even where it would happen. His heart was in the right place, but hes actions were incredibly stupid. Especially considering the previous dealings that everyone involved has had with prophecies, I have to agree. Finding out about some mystical prophecy and deciding that the best way to deal with it is to go all Lone Ranger and hold all of your cards to your chest is a time-honoured way to mess everything up! |
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XanderHarris
Potential Slayer
I've been unreasonable, because I've lost all reason.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 125
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Post by XanderHarris on Aug 10, 2009 9:27:21 GMT -5
Why couldn't he have talked to Angel about it? Yes, I know the prophecy was about him and Connor, but he told Angel about the prophecy in the first season about him "dieing". Angel would WANT to know about this prophecy that said he would kill his son. He would want to protect Connor and try to figure out what he could do to prevent it. Also, the prophecy was SO general. It just said "The Father Will Kill the Son" it didn't say how, why, when or even where it would happen. His heart was in the right place, but hes actions were incredibly stupid. Had Wes just been honest with Angel and shown him what he found, I seriously doubt any of the events that happened later would have happened. His throat getting cut, Connor being stolen by Holtz, Connor hating Angel, etc none if it had to happen, but Wes was an idiot and instead of working together with his teammates to figure out what to do, he took matters into his own hands and acted like nothing was going on with his supposed friends. I don't blame the rest of Angel Inc for turning there backs on him in the least. Hm. I see your point, but try to put yourself in Wes' shoes. The main reason why he acted alone and without telling someone, was for me especially because he didn't know about the conditions of Angel killing Connor. I imagine Wes thought, like I'd do, he would set the things in motion that would lead to Angel killing Connor by telling anyone. And before burdening himself with the guilt of being responsible for Connor's death (by telling Angel, which might've lead to the murder), he wanted to take Connor away - because Wes is such a great character that he would rather live alone and leave the people he loves behind in order to save everyone. That's just what Wesley is. A person that would retreat his own desires for a greater good. And I think, because he didn't want anybody else to be responsible for Connor getting harmed, he decided to make himself responsible. Yeah, he acted in a weird way, but as far as I am concerned perfectly plausible and - to some degree - "good". |
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Post by lightandmagic on Aug 10, 2009 10:52:12 GMT -5
I also always had a problem with the fact that Cordelia and Wesley don't talk. They were good friends for a long time and she doesn't even go over to say anything? Hell, I would have appreciated it if she even went over there just to yell at him and then storm away. They had a strong friendship it seems out of her character to not say anything to him whatsoever.
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Post by gunslingerdante on Aug 10, 2009 20:18:57 GMT -5
What really cracks me up about season 3, is the fact that Conner did Wes a big favor, by sending his Dad to the bottom of the ocean. If that never had happened, Wes would of never had a chance to redeem himslef.
I also hate how Fred and Gunn treat Wes like Crap when he brings Angel back.
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Post by Wyndam on Aug 10, 2009 21:49:06 GMT -5
What really cracks me up about season 3, is the fact that Conner did Wes a big favor, by sending his Dad to the bottom of the ocean. If that never had happened, Wes would of never had a chance to redeem himslef. I also hate how Fred and Gunn treat Wes like Crap when he brings Angel back. Well that's not quite true. Regardless of Wesley saving Angel, Angel still approaches Wesley first when he needs help finding Cordelia. Wesley wanted nothing to do with Angel after saving him, it was Angel that originally opened the line of communication again. |
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Post by henzINNIT on Aug 11, 2009 15:13:37 GMT -5
That's the best thing about Wes's apparent betrayal. He's doing the right thing, noble and good in a way, but he's stupid to keep quiet. He's only in that position because he's completely alienated from his friends. He can't talk to Angel, Cordy is away, and it's too painful for him to even look at Fred and Gunn. Poor sod. Why couldn't he have talked to Angel about it? Yes, I know the prophecy was about him and Connor, but he told Angel about the prophecy in the first season about him "dieing". Angel would WANT to know about this prophecy that said he would kill his son. He would want to protect Connor and try to figure out what he could do to prevent it. Also, the prophecy was SO general. It just said "The Father Will Kill the Son" it didn't say how, why, when or even where it would happen. His heart was in the right place, but hes actions were incredibly stupid. Had Wes just been honest with Angel and shown him what he found, I seriously doubt any of the events that happened later would have happened. His throat getting cut, Connor being stolen by Holtz, Connor hating Angel, etc none if it had to happen, but Wes was an idiot and instead of working together with his teammates to figure out what to do, he took matters into his own hands and acted like nothing was going on with his supposed friends. I don't blame the rest of Angel Inc for turning there backs on him in the least. Angel would never accept it and Wes knew it. |
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Post by Wyndam on Aug 11, 2009 15:57:05 GMT -5
Plus Wesley could never have risked Angel finding out what he knew. For all he knew the prophecy was already coming true (which it looked to be), and telling Angel what he knew, despite how much Wesley trusts and cares for Angel, would have only put Connor in danger. Wesley did the only thing he could do without endangering Connor.
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Post by lightandmagic on Aug 12, 2009 0:27:32 GMT -5
I wouldn't go so far as to say his actions were the only thing he could do. Just as Fred says when she goes to see him, he could have told them. But I perfectly understand why he did it, as his relationship with Gunn and Fred was becoming more strained and estranged.
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Post by henzINNIT on Aug 12, 2009 15:03:24 GMT -5
It's really sad when you consider what he was actually going to do and ignore the throat slashing. In order to protect that child and eventually Angel's pain, Wes was prepared to completely throw away his life. He could have simply talked to some companions, but in the end; Angel wouldn't accept that prophecy and anyone who acted to protect the child would be going up against him. The way I see it, Wes chose to do just that, but go alone so no-one else had to sever their ties with their loved ones.
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Post by gunslingerdante on Aug 12, 2009 20:23:24 GMT -5
All this talk of Season 3 really makes me wish Angel could of gotten to Qur-Toth. Going to Hell to get back his son would of been an Awsome storyline. But I guess the show just did not have that kind of funds. It might make a good "what if" story for the comics. I've always just wanted to see what Qur-Toth looks like.
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Post by lightandmagic on Aug 12, 2009 23:18:52 GMT -5
On the What If storyline, I think it would have been so much more powerful if it was Wes that went into Quor Toth to gain back Connor. After everyone's abandoned him, he disappears, and they wonder where he's gone, reappears several episodes later terribly old and almost dead but with a healthy and living Connor. That would have been a good storyline.
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Post by Wyndam on Aug 13, 2009 0:16:19 GMT -5
On the What If storyline, I think it would have been so much more powerful if it was Wes that went into Quor Toth to gain back Connor. After everyone's abandoned him, he disappears, and they wonder where he's gone, reappears several episodes later terribly old and almost dead but with a healthy and living Connor. That would have been a good storyline. I agree, that would be awesome. Except what if it took Wes ages and he came back an old man?  |
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Chaos
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
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Post by Chaos on Sept 2, 2009 7:34:40 GMT -5
The ending of 'Billy' was disappointing for me. I was surprised when Lilah showed up and shot him, but pleased that a woman took him down. But. The two episodes had set up Cordelia as a pivotal part of the Billy chaos, almost putting Angel & Cordelia at odds - Angel choosing to save Cordelia and worry about the consequences later while Cordelia questioned if the end justifies the means. Then the big finish has the queen of evil swooping in and stealing their thunder. Cordelia killing Billy despite Angel's protest could have fueled future character & relationship development. Lilah killing him fell to the wayside afterwards since she simply returned to what she does best - an awesome queen of evil. Ok, Angel having gone crazy in Cordy's alternative reality is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen on this show. Thank you! Angel carries around enough heinous acts in his memories to choke a horse and visions of death & mayhem that he isn't even responsible for drives him crazy? One of the writers said in an interview (sorry, not sure if I have a link) that Angel went crazy because he didn't have Cordelia. Sounds nice in theory I guess that their bond could be that strong but the continuing series doesn't support that assumption since Angel seemed to do just fine without her. Now, on to the end of season 3. How could they juxtapose the brilliant evil sociopathicness of Connor locking Angel in that box with the unbelievably cheesy soap-opera-ness of Cordelia glowing, talking to herself, and turning into some sort of goddess? When she called Angel to tell him to meet her at the beach in the middle of nowhere at night, it was so off from the tone of the show that I kept expecting the camera to pan back and show someone holding a gun to her head or something. And when she was talking to the glowy version of herself about how she liked Angel, I expected it to be a video of her auditioning for a bad soap opera. I don't think I've ever seen such bad lines and acting on this show. Your take on the ascension scene pretty much sums up my reaction to seasons 3 & 4. AtS took on a very nighttime soap-opera feel and there was just way too much character manipulation that sometimes sacrificed core characterization in order to write the story they wanted to tell. |
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Sept 2, 2009 11:13:08 GMT -5
Yeah, I always felt that statement was a bit redundant - we already know Lilah kicks ass, you don't have to prove it to us!
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Whedon Fan
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Whedon Fan on Sept 2, 2009 13:22:08 GMT -5
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