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Post by kittyfantastico on Jan 25, 2009 13:24:23 GMT -5
I'm working my way through Angel for the first time. I'm on disk 1 of Season 3. I wish I were watching this back when it came out becuase I'd love to dissect every little bit on the message boards each week... hehe.
Anyway. I just watched Fredless. Did anyone call Lorne on the horrible advice he gave Fred? (He told her to run away even further from her loving parents). Has he EVER given good advice in this show? He sent Angel on a lot of wild goose chases... I don't think I'd trust his psychic skills.
I'm currently in the middle of the episode where Billy makes all the men into wife-beaters. (I watch them in little bits and pieces in between all my studying). This episode is terrifying! Seriously one of the creepiest things I"ve seen on Buffy or Angel. I just stopped after the scene where Angel stopped Cordelia from shooting Billy, and I was thinking how he was being a sexist jerk by doing that, even if he wasn't yet under Billy's evil spell. Cordelia has just as much right to kill Billy as Angel does.
I won't check this thread again until I've finished the episode, so feel free to comment on that, but I hope to avoid spoilers for later on in Angel...
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jan 25, 2009 13:47:40 GMT -5
About Angel stopping Cordy. I can't remember the ep that clearly, and I was most likely thinking the same thing I saw it. Maybe Angel wanted to save Cordelia, the fragile female, from getting her hands dirty. Or you know, the fragile human.
Maybe he just didn't want her to kill Billy, a someone who might be human. To save her soul or something.
After you kill a human, you can never go... back? Or something that rhymes with "human".
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Saturn 5
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by Saturn 5 on Jan 25, 2009 13:51:02 GMT -5
Love Fredless, once got to ask Amy Acker were her real parents anything like that and she said no, her parents were both lawyers. As for Lorne, well, he fled his homeworld so maybe that's the sort of thing he'd recommend?
Yeah, the ep with Billy is a creepy one, seeing all our favourite male characters acting misogynistically is very unsettling. What always disturbed me is the cop and old man who attack women under Billy's influence, what happens to them?
As for Angel, he's not saying that Cordy doesn't have the right of revenge, he's just trying to spare her the trauma of taking a human life
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 25, 2009 15:48:55 GMT -5
Yeah it'd not so much about Angel protecting the girl, he just doesn't want murder on her conscience.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jan 25, 2009 17:02:52 GMT -5
Yeah, the ep with Billy is a creepy one, seeing all our favourite male characters acting misogynistically is very unsettling. What always disturbed me is the cop and old man who attack women under Billy's influence, what happens to them? I've always wondered that as well. The guilt must be eating them up, while they're in jail. Someone should break them out and explain to them that it wasn't their fault. This is a flaw with several stories/series/movies, etcetc. People who has been possessed don't get things explained to them. Like vanquishing the demon was enough. They're still not free. |
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Post by kittyfantastico on Jan 25, 2009 17:13:00 GMT -5
I definitely got that Angel was trying to protect Cordy from committing a murder. But, they had already established that Billy was not quite human (which seems to be more of an important distinction on these shows than I really think it should be, but anyway), and Cordy had more personal reason to kill him than Angel did. It was more poetic justice for a woman to kill him. I'm glad they had a woman do it in the end, if not Cordy. (By the way, I wonder if the lawyer woman, whose name I"m blanking on, will ever find out that when Angel bit her it wasn't really him).
I don't think it would have been a bad thing for Cordelia to stand up for herself and all women and kill this guy. Apparently him not being human makes it ok in the Buffy universe, so I see no reason to stop her. Why is it worse for a woman to have murder on her conscience than a man? Ok Angel's conscience is already fuller than most people's, so maybe it wasn't just a male-female thing, but still. It rubbed the wrong way in an episode like this.
By the way... do I see signs of Angel and Cordy getting together down the road? Don't answer that. Not sure how I feel about it if it does happen. But them doing Tae Bo or whatever together was very reminiscent of him and Buffy.
"What always disturbed me is the cop and old man who attack women under Billy's influence, what happens to them?"
I don't remember the old man but the cop was shot by his female partner that he attacked. I don't think they specifically said he died but I assumed he did. So what happens to the female cop, I wonder if anyone will believe her story about why she had to shoot him.
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Post by kittyfantastico on Jan 28, 2009 17:33:23 GMT -5
Ok, Angel having gone crazy in Cordy's alternative reality is the most ridiculous thing I"ve ever seen on this show.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jan 28, 2009 23:40:37 GMT -5
Ok, Angel having gone crazy in Cordy's alternative reality is the most ridiculous thing I"ve ever seen on this show. [/quote I so wish I could spoil you and talk about this. |
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Post by kittyfantastico on Feb 1, 2009 7:06:43 GMT -5
Well, I'll get back to you when I"ve seen... how far ahead did you want to spoil me? I'll be finishing Season 3 sometime fairly soon, but I don't have 4 and 5 yet.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Feb 1, 2009 8:45:58 GMT -5
We'll talk after season 4. Believe you me, you'll want to talk after season 4.
Talk, whine, cry, all of the above.
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Post by kittyfantastico on Feb 2, 2009 17:48:35 GMT -5
I just watched the episode where they take the baby away.
WTF was Wes thinking? Doesn't he, of all people, know how prophecies can be self-fulfilling?
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Post by kittyfantastico on Feb 3, 2009 17:03:57 GMT -5
And in the next episode they play it off like Wes did the right thing with the info he had. Total BS.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
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Post by patxshand on Feb 3, 2009 19:29:47 GMT -5
Trust me, they're not gonna play it off as if he did the right thing.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Feb 4, 2009 8:26:14 GMT -5
Oh, we can talk about this too. I'm totally on Wes' side. He was doing the safe thing. Better to put some distance between yourself and any potential danger before you investigate the danger more.
If he had been right and Angel would have turned out to be evil, season 2 style or angelus-style, and eaten Connor (maybe even accidentally)I doubt Wes would have thought about the others potential hurt feelings if he had left.
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Léo
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Post by Léo on Feb 4, 2009 13:08:04 GMT -5
Skytteflickan88 : I am totally with you on Wes' side. I mean come on, here you have a guy who is doing the right thing alone, alienating his friends for saving a baby and people are still saying "he shouldn't have done that". Everyone in his situation should have done the same, and not doing it would have just been cowardice, if you want my opinion.
Of course, it turns out he was wrong, but it doesn't change anything as he did all he could to be sure about it. And, to my mind, it feels like a cop out of the writers to say "Well, finally, you know he was wrong and his friends are right to abandon him". Anyway, a Wes fan speaking.
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XanderHarris
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Post by XanderHarris on Feb 4, 2009 13:31:25 GMT -5
Oh, we can talk about this too. I'm totally on Wes' side. He was doing the safe thing. Better to put some distance between yourself and any potential danger before you investigate the danger more. If he had been right and Angel would have turned out to be evil, season 2 style or angelus-style, and eaten Connor (maybe even accidentally)I doubt Wes would have thought about the others potential hurt feelings if he had left. Damn straight. I'm totally with Wes too. He let himself be abandoned by the people he loves, in order to save them. I say he is a goddamn hero! Of course it worked out pretty bad, but that was never Wesley's intention. In fact, his kindness was what got him the throat cut. He wanted to help Justine after all. If you ask me, there is no way to blame Wes. A giant burger told him the prophecy would be true, everywhere he turned the same answer - what else was he supposed to do? And by the way, this created one of the finest moments in TV history - the end of Forgiving. Yay for Wes! |
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Saturn 5
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Post by Saturn 5 on Feb 7, 2009 5:52:58 GMT -5
There really is no easy path for Wes to take here, he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't
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Post by henzINNIT on Feb 7, 2009 7:32:47 GMT -5
That's the best thing about Wes's apparent betrayal. He's doing the right thing, noble and good in a way, but he's stupid to keep quiet. He's only in that position because he's completely alienated from his friends. He can't talk to Angel, Cordy is away, and it's too painful for him to even look at Fred and Gunn. Poor sod.
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Post by kittyfantastico on Feb 8, 2009 4:44:48 GMT -5
I finished the season, but first re: Wes
I don't think he did the right thing at all. His heart was in the right place, yes. He wasn't meaning to betray ,he was trying to do the right thing. But he was still wrong, and not just because of how it worked out afterwords. There are two ways to look at prophecies. Either they will come true no matter what you do, in which case there's no sense in trying to mess with them, or they can be circumvented, in which case he should have told the others about the prophecy and discussed what to do. Wes should have read enough greek tragedies to know better than to try to sneak the baby away-- the obvious consequence would have been that the son grows up away from the father, and directly because of that they get in a fight later as adults and the son kills the father. Self-fulfilling prophecy. Sure, that's not how it happened, but it was a totally forseeable consequence of Wes's actions. Not to mention he should have been suspicious of the truth of the prophecy in the first place-- they KNEW they were dealing with a time traveling demon. Wes should have discussed this with everyone else. Maybe Angel would have agreed to have his son sent away for safety if he knew what the prophecy said. But it wasn't at all right for Wes to do what he did and its clear the others can't really trust him after that, at least until something else big happens.
Now, on to the end of season 3. How could they juxtapose the brilliant evil sociopathicness of Connor locking Angel in that box with the unbelievably cheesy soap-opera-ness of Cordelia glowing, talking to herself, and turning into some sort of goddess? When she called Angel to tell him to meet her at the beach in the middle of nowhere at night, it was so off from the tone of the show that I kept expecting the camera to pan back and show someone holding a gun to her head or something. And when she was talking to the glowy version of herself about how she liked Angel, I expected it to be a video of her auditioning for a bad soap opera. I don't think I"ve ever seen such bad lines and acting on this show.
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Saturn 5
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Post by Saturn 5 on Feb 8, 2009 6:14:52 GMT -5
Well in the end Angel does 'kill' Connor?
As for Wes what alternatives did he have? He really was in an Oedipus style dilemma
I like the juxtaposition of Cordy going up and Angel going down, sure Cordy's lines are a bit cheesey but that's what tends to happen when you're being elevated to a higher being
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