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Post by kittyfantastico on Mar 2, 2009 11:34:34 GMT -5
I tried to find a thread on the episode Empty Places, but there doesn't seem to be one.
I just rewatched it and I'm curious what people think. I'm always torn on them kicking her out of her house and more importantly kicking her out of the plan. It does seem like going after Caleb was a bad decision, but saying she hasn't earned the leadership role is ridiculous. She's been the leader for years, and they've been incredibly lucky that no one was seriously injured or killed before this. There were plenty of fights over the years where Xander could easily have lost an eye; if he had would everyone have quit?
I feel bad for the potentials. They never signed up to fight, they came to Sunnydale to avoid being killed. They should probably know more about Faith before they put her in charge. Why didn't they put Giles in charge?
Dawn, of all people, should not have kicked Buffy out. That didn't make a whole lot of sense.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Mar 2, 2009 14:11:24 GMT -5
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Post by Emmie on Mar 2, 2009 14:24:33 GMT -5
Gakked from Sosa Lola:
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Post by henzINNIT on Mar 2, 2009 16:12:53 GMT -5
Terrible scene. I posted about it on imdb the other day....
It's one of those classic contrived scenes where you know the characters had to go somewhere but how the events unfold are beyond a stretch.
Buffy: We have to go back to the vineyard
Everyone else: Say wha?
Buffy: They're blatantly protecting something there I mean come on... you have to trust me.
Everyone else: But we got beaten up and stuff so we're pretty down, not even sure we should trust you over the convict in the corner there.
Buffy: Faith?
Dawn: Get out.
Buffy: kk
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Post by hitnrun017 on Mar 2, 2009 16:21:25 GMT -5
Wow, that was a great read. What happened in the episode was better written, but that part between Buffy and Giles was tense with a lot of backstory, would have been cool to see.
I was alright with them kicking her out of the house, it had great character moments, but I hate where it is placed in the season. It just seems like a bad idea to have everyone turn against the main character with four episodes left of the series and pretty much ignore it the next episode. Two episodes wasn't enough time for the writers to fix what they broke. Maybe if they did it around episode 14 instead of, let's say, having Buffy go on a date, things would have worked out a lot better.
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zoelee
Common Vampire
i have twitter u can find me at zoeleesaunders[Mo0:15]
Posts: 86
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Post by zoelee on Mar 2, 2009 16:24:59 GMT -5
i don't think it was right that they kicked her out of her own house.
she has saved there butts on more than one occasion.
if they didn't wanna go, she could have gone herself with spike as u know he would of if she asked.
they should have known more about faith be4 they put her in charge, she became the same as Buffy in charge.
and i think that Giles would have been better in charge for the time being. even through they kicked her out, she still went and saved there butts again, and didn't say a word about it when she came bk.
she was hard on them or took them into wrong places but thats what a leader does, what a leader need to do.
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Post by kittyfantastico on Mar 2, 2009 16:28:13 GMT -5
Wow, that script was really interesting. One line I don't get though:
"BUFFY
Is that really something you want to
get into? 'Cause we can talk about
Spike. Or Ben."
Why is Buffy the one saying that? Shouldn't Giles be the one threatening to bring up how Buffy has messed up with Ben and Spike?
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Post by hitnrun017 on Mar 2, 2009 16:32:14 GMT -5
Wow, that script was really interesting. One line I don't get though: "BUFFY Is that really something you want to get into? 'Cause we can talk about Spike. Or Ben." Why is Buffy the one saying that? Shouldn't Giles be the one threatening to bring up how Buffy has messed up with Ben and Spike? I'm pretty sure she means how Giles was part of the plan to kill Spike and how he killed Ben. |
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Post by Whedon Fan on Mar 2, 2009 16:49:14 GMT -5
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Mar 2, 2009 19:59:06 GMT -5
Wasn't this the last episode we saw The Bronze in?  But I always thought Buffy being kicked out was such a shock. It also really pissed me off that it was practically moments from the finale. It wouldn't have bothered me so much if there was a genuine get together of the crew again...but it just seemed like there wasn't any time for it during the last two episodes. The final episode should have been 40 minutes longer so it could have fit that in, me thinks. |
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Post by Emmie on Mar 2, 2009 20:34:05 GMT -5
Wasn't this the last episode we saw The Bronze in? But I always thought Buffy being kicked out was such a shock. It also really pissed me off that it was practically moments from the finale. It wouldn't have bothered me so much if there was a genuine get together of the crew again...but it just seemed like there wasn't any time for it during the last two episodes. The final episode should have been 40 minutes longer so it could have fit that in, me thinks. They really needed the finale to be a two-parter like Becoming and Graduation Day. Can you imagine how epic that would have been? As a result of it being only one episode, we got lots of heavy plot but light character development and reunion. |
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Mar 2, 2009 23:29:50 GMT -5
Wasn't this the last episode we saw The Bronze in? But I always thought Buffy being kicked out was such a shock. It also really pissed me off that it was practically moments from the finale. It wouldn't have bothered me so much if there was a genuine get together of the crew again...but it just seemed like there wasn't any time for it during the last two episodes. The final episode should have been 40 minutes longer so it could have fit that in, me thinks. They really needed the finale to be a two-parter like Becoming and Graduation Day. Can you imagine how epic that would have been? As a result of it being only one episode, we got lots of heavy plot but light character development and reunion. That would have been so epic I wouldn't have been able to breathe through it. But most people argue with the fact that "Chosen" picks up right from "End of Days" making them both two parts of the finale. I think Joss should have just made a two-hour script for "Chosen" and keeping it all as one episode and not breaking it up. That would've been sick. |
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Post by kittyfantastico on Mar 3, 2009 3:07:42 GMT -5
The version that aired lost the line where Buffy says she's paid the price too, sometimes, didn't it? That was a good line.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Mar 3, 2009 5:29:02 GMT -5
The version that aired lost the line where Buffy says she's paid the price too, sometimes, didn't it? That was a good line. I think that was dropped, since Xander's blame speech also was shortened. Here's the aired version; vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=4109 |
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Post by Greer on Mar 3, 2009 15:22:37 GMT -5
I really liked that script excerpt, thanks for posting it! I am shocked about the addition of the Jenny thing with Giles, I know he's been thinking about it, but wow, that's been a while. It has always made me mad that Buffy got kicked out. I think that she did need time to think, but Buffy has almost always been right about these situations, and always pulls the guys through. She always averts the apocalypses, "beats the bad guys" in the end, and has died to save those people, ESPECIALLY Dawn. That's what made me the most angered is that Dawn should've been the one to go flying off the tower into the electrical ball, but Buffy pushed her out of the way. Plus, on a totally practical note, it's Buffy's house! She's letting everyone else live there, in technicality. It also hurts that the gang is so quick to brush off what Faith has done in the past. I'm not saying redemption was not had/in the process of being done, but come on! Will and Xander have always followed and supported Buffy and then they just throw her out? Willow was very much so following Kennedy's lead/prompting to kick Buffy out. How many times has Buffy never given up on her? Dark Willow much? Xander has countlessly, time in and time out, gotten down on Buffy for her relationships, her lack of killings(Spike, Angelus, various villains, etc.) and this was just another count of his very quick ability to point out her shortcomings. This end of the episode breaks my heart every time I see it. But talking about the series finale, it should've totally been longer. I would just be staring at the tv with a look of awe for 2 wonderful hours instead of 1. |
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Skeptic
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Post by Skeptic on Mar 3, 2009 16:17:56 GMT -5
Thanks for the script post. Wow! I always wondered if Giles was holding on to what happened with Jenny, in a way pinning it on Buffy, and now it appears so. Whether or not she deserved it, seems he's got a laundry list of things she did or didn't do to his liking. Nice time to bring it up, too. Sheesh. And I agree about what you said about Xander, Greer. Even back to Season 1, he is the first one to lead the charge into massacring Buffy's character. He has always been the first to instigate these moments where Buffy's character, or her job, or her loyalty to her friends, is called into question. He has always had a problem with her on that level. In some ways I never understand it, because he's being such a jackass to her in those moments. He hits her when she's at her weakest, and takes a chunk out of her. In other ways, I understand it completely, because he can be an obtuse butthead a lot, but mostly because he treats Buffy like a sister. He calls her on what he sees as b.s. He's not always right, or justified, but that's what I see when he does that. This scene is always so damned frustrating for me to watch, or even read. I just feel so heartbroken when Buffy is turned out on the street. It was such a cold thing to do to her. First, it should not have been done in front of everyone. It should have been Giles, the Scoobies, and maybe Faith. And they should have talked to her, showed their concern, not cornered her and doled out punishment. People like Rona and Kennedy had no business telling Buffy in her own house what she should and shouldn't do. Buffy didn't ask for any of this to happen, yet she opened up her house and started caring for and training ALL of these stupid girls. I'm not bitter.  As it was, turfing her out like that was a death sentence. Buffy had gotten her backside handed to her time and again by Caleb and his merry crew. The town is crawling with unstoppable ubervamps. Buffy's alone. She has nowhere to go and get this much-needed "rest" that everyone is whinging about. As it is, Buffy just helps herself to someone's house, gun, and refrigerator and doesn't even give a flying flip at that point if it's wrong or if she's safe or anything else. I was glad when Spike showed up at the house and went off on them all. Even if Faith ended up showing him the door, he got in a word or two at least about what a bunch of punks they were to do that to her. I was just really mad at that scene, and I guess I still am. lol |
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Post by henzINNIT on Mar 4, 2009 17:00:12 GMT -5
I think Xander's grown a lot by this point in time though, and his responses here are more than justified. Buffy is asking them to go back to the place where they just received a complete battering, and with no more justification than before. The stakes haven't changed, she believed there was something there before, the only difference now is that everyone is beaten and demoralised.
Buffy later infiltrates the place alone and succeeds. She was pretty much wrong to try to storm the place with her army a second time, but her tactics are never really questioned.
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Post by buffyfan21 on Mar 5, 2009 3:58:57 GMT -5
OMG, don't even get me started on this episode. You would think that as many times as I've seen it it would get better with time, but nope, still makes me just as angry as it did the first time I watched it. The only thing I would say that has changed over many viewings is the shock factor. I remember when I first saw this ep I was completely and utterly blown away, couldn't believe what I was seeing! Now (unfortunately) I know what's coming. I HATE HATE HATE the scene where they gang up on Buffy and out her out of HER OWN HOME! Now that behavior I would expect from the potentials (because most were bratty and hadn't spent 7 years with Buffy like the scoobies had), but for Buffy to receive this kind of treatment from her friends, her family, is a completely different matter! And when Dawn kicked Buffy out of the house I just couldn't believe it! Every time I see that scene I just wanna say, "um, excuse me, do you pay the bills?!" I mean, what right did Dawn have to do that to her sister and mother figure?! For all intents and purposes, Dawn was the child and Buffy the adult, and in my opinion, Dawn steeped waaaaay over the line with this one! It was certainly ballsy of Dawn alright! As far as I am concerned, the only thing Dawn did right this episode was telling Rona to shut her mouth! I had been waiting for someone to tell Rona off and as much as I disdained Dawn, I was glad that she at least said that. And the bratty, whiny, ungrateful potentials - Buffy opens up HER HOME to them, gives them shelter and a place to stay when they have none, trains them for a war and teaches them how to fight, becomes their mentor, teacher, and mother figure all in one, and this is how they repay her? By stabbing her in the back?! If it weren't for Buffy they all would have been on the streets, and if it weren't for the skills she taught them, the causalities would have been far greater. Buffy gave of her home and herself and they didn't even appreciate it! When Buffy walks alone at the end of this ep it is so heartbreaking and my heart just really goes out to her. I guess a part of me has never really understood why Buffy didn't just stand up and fight back. she shouldn't have let everyone walk all over her that way. I guess she just felt lost and hopeless and that there was nothing she could do about the situation. I mean, her friends and everyone she cared about had just deserted her after all. That's gotta make one feel pretty lonely. I just can't believe her friends of 7 years had the audacity to betray her like they did. I mean, I know they had had their problems from time to time in the past as most friends do, But kicking Buffy out of her own home I NEVER expected! I mean, what right did they have?! I just find the whole thing outrageous. And I'm gonna stop there for now as I could easily go on. As you can see I still have a great many issues with this episode. END RANT!  |
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Post by kittyfantastico on Mar 5, 2009 16:04:38 GMT -5
Watching the next ep, they all just make up because Faith got knocked out? Um...
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Mar 5, 2009 16:49:39 GMT -5
Watching the next ep, they all just make up because Faith got knocked out? Um... Through the whole episode, I heard a inner voice saying "I. Told. You. So." But I'm glad that Buffy didn't say it. I wish that they had a talk afterwards tough, that they would have sat down to say; Buffy: I think we need to talk. Xander: Buffy we know we were wrong... Willow: We're sorry. *Giles cleaning his glasses* Buffy: No. I won't say 'I told you so'. Because you probably think that it's luck. Luck that I was right. Luck that I didn't die, luck that... Giles: No. It's wasn't luck. Buffy: Maybe you don't think that. Still... We have problems, don't we? *they look at each other, insecure, not knowing what to say, and the screen goes black* |
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