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Post by sosa lola on Mar 5, 2009 17:12:48 GMT -5
I hate both versions. The scene is so forced and just the writers' way to make us feel bad for Buffy and hate all the other characters. Cheap way. I hate when writers feel like they need to trash all the characters to make the main character lovable again. Guess what, writers? I felt the opposite.
I wouldn't mind making Buffy isolated and sad and pathetic... just don't trash the other characters to make it happen. It felt like a Spuffy fic written by a 13 year old girl -you know, the type that bashes the Scoobies to show that Spike is the only one who cares about Buffy. I hate when writers use this stupid device to tell a story. It'll be more powerful to show how much Buffy trusts Spike without making the others look bad in comparison.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Mar 5, 2009 17:26:06 GMT -5
I hate both versions. The scene is so forced and just the writers' way to make us feel bad for Buffy and hate all the other characters. Cheap way. I hate when writers feel like they need to trash all the characters to make the main character lovable again. Guess what, writers? I felt the opposite. I wouldn't mind making Buffy isolated and sad and pathetic... just don't trash the other characters to make it happen. It felt like a Spuffy fic written by a 13 year old girl -you know, the type that bashes the Scoobies to show that Spike is the only one who cares about Buffy. I hate when writers use this stupid device to tell a story. It'll be more powerful to show how much Buffy trusts Spike without making the others look bad in comparison. We have no idea what the writers who were involved in the scene tought, what they wanted to tell us and why. We can only guess. Of course, if you dislike they way they're portayed, you're entitled to that. I for one understand their actions and might, in fear, acted the same way. But I wouldn't have wanted to gang up on Buffy like that, or to throug her out, but I think it's realistic that they lost faith in her and partly understand why. But when has she ever been wrong? Really wrong? She is right more than she is wrong and they should have gone with her instincts. |
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Post by buffyfan21 on Mar 5, 2009 23:33:52 GMT -5
Wow, reading the original script makes me feel even worse about the episode.  |
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Post by henzINNIT on Mar 6, 2009 12:23:58 GMT -5
It's odd reading these responses...
Who here thinks Buffy was in the right when they turned on her?
Interesting to me that people seem to think so. I always thought the others were right about her being reckless, even though kicking her out was a huge leap of nonsense. Either way it's disappointing that there was never really a moment to reconcille that conflict.
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Post by Wyndam on Mar 6, 2009 12:46:44 GMT -5
It's odd reading these responses... Who here thinks Buffy was in the right when they turned on her? Interesting to me that people seem to think so. I always thought the others were right about her being reckless, even though kicking her out was a huge leap of nonsense. Either way it's disappointing that there was never really a moment to reconcille that conflict. I never thought Buffy was being too reckless. By Caleb being the First's strongest soldier, there was no reason for him to NOT be at the school, guarding the seal. The fact that he was at the vineyard was reason enough to go and find out what he and The First were hiding. Frankly, all of them were expendable, and not going just to protect a few lives when the stakes were as big as they were, was not reason enough for them to sit around and wait. This scene reminded me of Season 3 when Wesley was willing to sacrifice Willow to prevent the Mayor from his ascension. Despite Wesley's lack of tact in that scene, he was right. If they had not rescued Willow, the Mayor probably would have never reached ascension. Buffy was put in the same position in this episode. She was willing to risk everyone's lives, because she knew that Caleb had to be guarding something important. In the end, she was right, but my main problem with the scene was of course Buffy getting kicked out of her own house. It was right for her loved one's to question her, but kicking her out of the house instead of discussing the situation rationally was completely Out of Character for Willow, Xander, Dawn, etc. Giles especially should have known better, since he tends to always look at the big picture, but considering I have a lot of issues with his character from Season 6 on, I wasn't really surprised. I always sympathized with Buffy in that scene, because she was looking at the big picture, and since they were dealing with an enemy with a massive size and scope, they all needed to be at this point. The stakes were too high to be so scared about more people dying that you just sit around and don't take the offensive. I understand that they were all disillusioned after getting their butts kicked by Caleb, but they shouldn't have let their fear of another defeat drive their strategic planning. Buffy was right, is what I am getting at lol. |
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Post by Emmie on Mar 6, 2009 14:53:53 GMT -5
Who here thinks Buffy was in the right when they turned on her? Interesting to me that people seem to think so. I always thought the others were right about her being reckless, even though kicking her out was a huge leap of nonsense. Either way it's disappointing that there was never really a moment to reconcille that conflict. I think Buffy was right with her instincts that Caleb had something of hers (the Scythe) that she needed and it was being held at the vineyard. In that respect, she was dead on. What was wrong about it was her method of getting to the 'something of hers'. It should have been a stealth, covert ops thing. Buffy was able to sneak in and steal back the Scythe because she went in alone. It completely failed the first time because she went in with all the non-superpowered potentials and was unprepared to face Caleb. Once she learned that in order to face him, she needed to avoid/dodge him to get past him towards the goal (like in capture the flag), she was able to win. If Buffy's plan was to just try the exact same thing they did in Dirty Girls, then yeah that'd be reckless and stupid. But she says she's willing to talk tactics but that they have to go back to the vineyard. And I agree that they had to go back to the vineyard to get the Scythe. Frankly, I think everyone had the shit scared out of them and didn't want to go up against a known threat again. The vineyard still had something they needed, but they were too scared to go for it. And this fear led to them rejecting Buffy (who admittedly was under a lot of pressure and not acting the best) and turn to Faith - who uses her authority just like Buffy to smack Kennedy into her place. Actually, that's what Buffy did *wrong* with the potentials esp. Kennedy. Kennedy kept questioning and Buffy kept trying to prove herself to them. Empty Places is just ridiculously plotted. I understand where Buffy is coming from and I even understand Willow and Xander. Giles, meh. But what really throws me is Dawn telling Buffy she has to leave. That's always bothered me the most out of anything. That and Anya telling Buffy she didn't earn it because Anya showed in Potential that she understood that being the Slayer most likely meant an early and violent death. To then act like Buffy being the Slayer was a prize or something. I believe Buffy has earned it over 7 years of leadership. |
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Post by kittyfantastico on Mar 6, 2009 17:32:20 GMT -5
I think Buffy was wrong to say they should all just barge into the vineyard again. Obviously the better plan, that ended up working, was her sneaking in alone. Or, maybe she could have taken Willow, who is arguably the only person more powerful than Buffy. Barging in with a bunch of untrained girls was stupid, and that's what Buffy seems to be suggesting, but it isn't totally clear that her plan wasn't going to have a little more to it after they discussed tactics and stuff.
I think they were right to say no, they won't follow her into the vineyard again in the same way as last time. But they were wrong to kick her out and put Faith in charge. After a speech about how slayer power doesn't make you better or smarter than everyone else, they pick the other slayer just becuase she's a slayer? Faith is the worst person to have in charge. If anything they should have put Giles in charge, if they were looking for experience and strategy-- issues of intelligence, not strength.
I can see why the Potentials freaked out, but the Scoobies should never have kicked her out like that. That was totally wrong and its ridiculous that they never talk about it later. Plus, its HER HOUSE and the town is empty-- THEY should have gone somewhere else, not kicked her out. (Actually, it might have made more sense to hole up somewhere else in the long run, like the abandoned hospital, but I guess they work with the sets they have). It would have served them right if she'd gotten killed out there, and then they all got killed without her to protect them.
Also, Anya's speech about how Buffy hasn't earned her position was so stupid. When Buffy was 16 she was handed powers out of nowhere, sure. But she has lead them for years, she's fought, she's learned, she's made hard decisions-- she IS more of a leader than the rest of them.
Buffy probably should have discussed that plan in private with her friends instead of announcing it as a done deal to the potentials, though.
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Post by Emmie on Mar 6, 2009 17:44:30 GMT -5
I think Buffy was wrong to say they should all just barge into the vineyard again. Obviously the better plan, that ended up working, was her sneaking in alone. Or, maybe she could have taken Willow, who is arguably the only person more powerful than Buffy. Barging in with a bunch of untrained girls was stupid, and that's what Buffy seems to be suggesting, but it isn't totally clear that her plan wasn't going to have a little more to it after they discussed tactics and stuff. I don't think it was clear that was Buffy's plan to just barge back in. When she says she's open to talking about tactics, I think that was where they could have compromised. And what kills me is that Giles called her instincts (what's gotten her through all this time) to be "tilting at windmills". She was right about needing to go back to the vineyard. And they needed to talk tactics. I think it all really boils down to everyone having lost trust with each other. I think they were right to say no, they won't follow her into the vineyard again in the same way as last time. But they were wrong to kick her out and put Faith in charge. After a speech about how slayer power doesn't make you better or smarter than everyone else, they pick the other slayer just becuase she's a slayer? Faith is the worst person to have in charge. If anything they should have put Giles in charge, if they were looking for experience and strategy-- issues of intelligence, not strength. Again, they didn't make it clear enough that Buffy's plan was for it to be everyone. But yeah, it definitely would have been wrong to just repeat that failed venture from Dirty Girls. Which is partially why I think that *wasn't* what Buffy was suggesting. It just makes no sense. I can see why the Potentials freaked out, but the Scoobies should never have kicked her out like that. That was totally wrong and its ridiculous that they never talk about it later. Plus, its HER HOUSE and the town is empty-- THEY should have gone somewhere else, not kicked her out. (Actually, it might have made more sense to hole up somewhere else in the long run, like the abandoned hospital, but I guess they work with the sets they have). It would have served them right if she'd gotten killed out there, and then they all got killed without her to protect them. I felt like they had no right to kick her out of her own house. Also, Anya's speech about how Buffy hasn't earned her position was so stupid. When Buffy was 16 she was handed powers out of nowhere, sure. But she has lead them for years, she's fought, she's learned, she's made hard decisions-- she IS more of a leader than the rest of them. Agreed. Buffy probably should have discussed that plan in private with her friends instead of announcing it as a done deal to the potentials, though. Exactly. Just like she did in Showtime and hey, that actually worked! |
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Post by sosa lola on Mar 7, 2009 9:07:51 GMT -5
Again, they didn't make it clear enough that Buffy's plan was for it to be everyone. But yeah, it definitely would have been wrong to just repeat that failed venture from Dirty Girls. Which is partially why I think that *wasn't* what Buffy was suggesting. It just makes no sense. I find kicking Buffy out making far less sense, and it happened, so it's not hard to assume that Buffy wanted to do the exact plan. After all, she was so tired. And no one as tired would be so perfect in planning, not even Buffy. |
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Post by wenxina on Mar 7, 2009 11:23:49 GMT -5
Buffy was able to sneak in and steal back the Scythe because she went in alone. It completely failed the first time because she went in with all the non-superpowered potentials and was unprepared to face Caleb. Once she learned that in order to face him, she needed to avoid/dodge him to get past him towards the goal (like in capture the flag), she was able to win. To be fair, at the point of "Dirty Girls", she had no idea she was facing Super Preacher-Man. The Potentials were as trained as she could have gotten them at that point. The entire point of the mission was to test them. Just like when she and Spike abandoned them with a vampire. It was reckless, yes, but had Buffy gone in alone, probably wouldn't have made it out alive anyway, with so many Bringers. Chances of survival a little better if she brought Faith. But as I said, it was meant to be a test... which granted is never a good idea if you don't know all the players. As for when she went back alone... I think the point was not so much that she went alone, but that she had found her inner strength again, her inner certainty. It was probably a good thing for her to take a break from being in the midst of things, and see things from the perspective of not being the one having to protect everyone. Once that load was removed, albeit temporarily, she could become Buffy again, and not just the Slayer. And quite frankly, the only reason she's lasted as long as she had is because of the "Buffy" bit.  |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Mar 7, 2009 13:10:25 GMT -5
I never thought Buffy was being too reckless. By Caleb being the First's strongest soldier, there was no reason for him to NOT be at the school, guarding the seal. The fact that he was at the vineyard was reason enough to go and find out what he and The First were hiding. Actually, being at the seal, which the first probably didn't think needed guarding, would have made caleb more vulnerable than he neded to be. It was smarter for him to hide(okay, he was easy found) at unknown territory. Back then, did they know what he intended to do? Because if not, they would have given up a friend for a unknown danger, which might have lead the all to be suicidal in the end, which means that some other big bad could have taken them out. *** I agree with Emmie about a sneaky attack being better than the one Buffy first planned. Of course, we didn't know that, neither did Buffy. Buffy knew that caleb and a unknown amount of bringers would be there, and I think she thought she needed back-up. She didn't. (Of course, barging in in alone, in a cellar filled with bringers and a unknown player sounds dumb, but hey, she's Buffy, in my mind she can do anything.) I can't remember, where there bringer in the cellar when Buffy went in alone or where they with Faith's gang? *** About the girls being untrained, that's just not true. Buffy wouldn't bring girls that would die immediatly. She must have assumed that thay could atleast take on the bringers. She did train them, even locked some of them up with a vampire. She did leave the ones she thought to untrained home tough. She couldn't possibly have thought they were untrained. I'm not just saying it because I think that Buffy couldn't have that on her conscience, but also, from a strategic point of view, having girls die around you when you fight will hurt the surviving fighters morale, and they will be more likely to lose the battle. I can't remember if Buffy was right about then being able to handle bringers tough. Did any bringer seriously injure or kill a girl? |
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Post by wenxina on Mar 7, 2009 13:23:25 GMT -5
Bringers did kill a whole bunch of girls. Granted, we don't know how well-trained these girls were when they were executed, but Bringers seemed to always attack en masse. But as for the girls she had trained... they were quite competent against Bringers in an ep or two later, and I doubt they all went Crouching Tiger in a day.
As for whether there were Bringers when Buffy went back for the Scythe, or were they all luring Faith's gang into a trap, the answer is both. Buffy can clearly be heard beating some of the Bringers before sending one tumbling down the steps (if I remember correctly). So maybe she can handle a whole bunch of Bringers by herself, but since we don't see exactly how many she was taking on, it could have just been a few. Caleb clearly wasn't expecting her return in the first place, and hey, he thought he could take her.
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Post by Wyndam on Mar 7, 2009 15:07:00 GMT -5
Actually, being at the seal, which the first probably didn't think needed guarding, would have made caleb more vulnerable than he neded to be. It was smarter for him to hide(okay, he was easy found) at unknown territory. Yeah I didn't say that Caleb should have been at the seal. I was looking at it from Buffy's point of view. The fact that Caleb WASN'T at the seal, pretty much says that he was guarding something more important else where, which Buffy of course later proved was correct. Back then, did they know what he intended to do? Because if not, they would have given up a friend for a unknown danger, which might have lead the all to be suicidal in the end, which means that some other big bad could have taken them out. They had a good idea at that point what the Mayor was going to do. If anything they knew an Apocalypse was coming. It has been a while since I watched Season 3, so I forget exactly what they knew at that point, but Wesley knew that by trading Willow, they were probably condemning the world. At that point, the Scoobies valued Willow's life over every one else, and while that was understandable, it wasn't smart considering what they were up against. |
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Skeptic
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Post by Skeptic on Mar 8, 2009 14:14:10 GMT -5
Watching the next ep, they all just make up because Faith got knocked out? Um... Through the whole episode, I heard a inner voice saying "I. Told. You. So." But I'm glad that Buffy didn't say it. I wish that they had a talk afterwards tough, that they would have sat down to say; Buffy: I think we need to talk. Xander: Buffy we know we were wrong... Willow: We're sorry. *Giles cleaning his glasses* Buffy: No. I won't say 'I told you so'. Because you probably think that it's luck. Luck that I was right. Luck that I didn't die, luck that... Giles: No. It's wasn't luck. Buffy: Maybe you don't think that. Still... We have problems, don't we? *they look at each other, insecure, not knowing what to say, and the screen goes black* I can't agree enough with you both. What happened in Empty Places was a stupifying moment in the Scooby saga and even though I was a nub to the Buffyverse at the time, I had gotten a summer crash course in all things BtVS and was smart enough to know that what happened was, on a scale of size and potential reverb, about as momentous as Buffy killing Angel, or Willow bringing Buffy back from the dead. I mean - there are just a handful of moments in the show where things go all wonky, and something major and tumultuous has to happen, and this is one. So... for the glossing-over that it got in the following ep when Buffy just gave the stiff upper lip and resumed her role without question or hesitation, because she knew she was right, and they were wrong... I still go all Jewish grandma over that and start smacking my forehead and waving my hands and yelling at the screen and just generally shaking my head in dismay. Buffy doesn't have to say anything, really, because Buffy's job here is to just pick up where she left off and keep focused on the Big Bad. Pick up the pieces and come back to them, and protect them and lead them, because that's what she always does and they don't know how lucky they are... at all. But the Scoobies should have said something to her, near the end - some kind of an attempt to try and explain... even though it would fall hopelessly short. I really like that scene you wrote, Skytteflickan88. It's just perfect.  |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Mar 9, 2009 6:56:49 GMT -5
Thanks. I have to agree, Buffy's professionalism is so admirable. To be able to not say anything, not to complain. I'm sure that in a future fight it might get dragged up, but she didn't say "I told you so". Still, I wanted a group hug between the scoobies. She needed it. Not that Spike wasn't helping, but he's more of a ... he's not exactly that kind of friend Buffy needed. |
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Post by wenxina on Mar 9, 2009 11:14:17 GMT -5
Still, I wanted a group hug between the scoobies. She needed it. Not that Spike wasn't helping, but he's more of a ... he's not exactly that kind of friend Buffy needed. Actually, at that point, he was exactly the friend she needed. He's never put her on any kind of pedestal (beyond the lusty kind), and in his little speech, he tells her that he's seen her at her best, and her worst. And being someone who's trying to do better now, having been his worse before (especially with her; do I really need to specify the scene?), I think he understood where her head was at. And because of that understanding, his unwavering trust in her was what fueled her resolve. The Scoobies... well, the First never lies, and when it appeared to Buffy as Joyce, It told her that the Scoobies placed too much pressure on her. I'm actually glad that we didn't have a wasted scene on the Scoobies talking it out; what's the point? It's evident that they all feel stupid. Giles doesn't even offer a real opinion until Buffy asks for it. It would just have been petty for them to be slinging "I told you so"s when the big battle was looming. If nothing else, it attests for the close family unit the Scoobies have become. Yeah, they fight, and say stupid things, but at the end of the day, there's still plenty of love there. That said, just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it never happened. |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Mar 9, 2009 13:06:37 GMT -5
The First do lie, it pretended to be Warren. True, Andrew did get that, but I count it as a lie.
And (this will sound like hairsplitting) I meant that although Spike supported her and gave her the peeptalk she needed, I think she needed the other kind of support that you can only get from close friends.
Buffy needed Spike to see clearly, but after she returned to the house she deserved/needed the other kind of support.
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Post by wenxina on Mar 9, 2009 13:24:26 GMT -5
Thanks for pointing out the times when the First has kinda lied. It's technically a lie, since the entire premise of paradise is probably false, or at least the notion of Warren, Andrew and Jonathan in some kind of heavenly paradise is pretty absurd, given their past actions. I guess a more accurate way of stating the First's MO is It plays on your weaknesses, by manipulating the truth for Its purposes. Or sometimes, it flat-out lies. But there are plenty of times It tells the truth, albeit somewhat perverted. Like with Faith. And It told Robin about his mother's killer. And I do believe that the Scoobies have always put a lot of pressure on Buffy. They help, yes, but they also rely on her to constantly save the day. Perils of being the leader, I guess. The other kind of support was provided. The only thing lacking was the scene where they "say" it out loud. But actions speak louder than words, and it was "spoken". That's enough for me... to tack on a tacky kiss and make up session would have been a little too schmaltzy for the show at that point. It's already been done before, in S4, and I think you can just take that it happened that way this time too. |
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Post by kittyfantastico on Mar 12, 2009 16:17:48 GMT -5
I'd also assume the part where the first said that Tara wanted Willow to kill herself was a lie. Pretending to be all those people was a lie. And there are clearly inconsistencies-- at first the First-As-Jonathan says he's happy in heaven and its great that he died, but later he says he's being tortured in hell.
When it appeared to Dawn as her mother it said something like Buffy would be against her. Did that ever happen?
Why would anyone think the first never lies?
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Post by wenxina on Mar 12, 2009 17:52:11 GMT -5
Because more often than not, it plays on the true fears and insecurities of people. It's not always lying, it does tell the truth when it suits Its purposes. There are many things in S7 that never came to fruition. But the First was merely playing with Dawn's insecurities at that point. I didn't edit my original post coz that would nullify Skytte's correction.
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